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Camilo José Cela y Trulock, 1st Marquess of Iria Flavia was a Spanish novelist, poet, story writer and essayist associated with the Generation of '36 movement.
Born 1916, died 2002.
The author emerged as an eminent Spanish writer after the Civil War. He fought onn the winning side. He belonged in the ruling class. This book was denied publication in Spain and the first edition was published in Argentina.
The author described his works as a "painful reality of every day", "a slice of life told step by step....exactly as life intself rambles on."
Nobel Prize in Literature, 1989.
1. Have you read anything else by the author? Have you read this book? If so, did you like it? Give us your 3 to 5 word review of the novel.
2. Translations: apparently this may have been a challenging translation because it is a polylingual novel that is richly rooted in a specific time and place.
J M Cohen
James Womack
Are there others? Which translation did you read? How did the translater do in your opinion.
Here's an example; To take an example from the novel, there is no perfect English translation for the idiom “Es que estoy que no me llega la camisa al cuerpo”; to translate it literally would not make its connotative meaning available for the English-language reader, and this is the meaning that is important: The man who says it is not really having a problem with his shirt. We can say the same for Womack’s decision to translate this idiom as “It’s just that I’ve got the heebie-jeebies.” There is no exact translation for “heebie-jeebies” into Spanish, or any other language for that matter; but it is something that someone might say in the same context, to paraphrase linguist Eugene Nida.
Cela did not like having the novel translated and did not feel it was possible. Was her right?
3. Characters
There are over 300 characters in the book. They weave in and out of the story in just a few days time. Did you find this okay or overwhelming. Were the characters, characters or were they types? Do you have a favorite? If so who and why?
4. Plot
Is there a plot?
"The first chapter is composed of 46 short scenes, which are almost entirely set within the same café, and arranged in an unclear chronological order within a period of time that’s somewhere between a few minutes and a few hours long. It introduces us to more than twenty of the café’s patrons, employees, and its cruel owner, Doña Rosa." At first the book is quite light hearted and fun. Does the feeling change and in what way?
5. How are women portrayed? Give some examples if you can.
6. Comment on social class in the novel, how is it portrayed?
7. Comment on the narrator of the novel.
8. The genre of this book is considered experimental in other places it is described as "realism". What do you think? Did you like the structure? Do you think anyone has borrowed from Cela's work.
9. This book was banned in Spain for erotic themes? Comments on the eroticism found in the book. Was it necessary to the development of the novel or just as opportunity for immoral expression?
10. Any other comments, quotes, opinions? Did you enjoy it, hate it, does it belong on the list?
Questions and comments taken from the book I am reading, wikipedia, and https://therumpus.net/2023/01/31/lang.... See also link posted by Diane.
This was a quick one to read so here go the questions.
1. I have not read anything else by this author and I would give this a 3 star rating.
3. The characters were people going about their daily lives and as such apart from a few key people I did not feel the need to keep track of who was who. My favourite was the Cafe lady rude & demanding but so real.
4. There is not a plot as such this is more about people. There are storylines that did weave in and out of interactions with other characters but no definite beginning, middle and end.
5. Women are portrayed in various ways the sharp, savvy and savage cafe owner, the girl driven to prostitution, the women taken advantage of by men along with the wives and mothers.
6. We see various social classes particularly workers and beggers we don't really see an upper class.
8. I would call it realism it follows real characters going about their real lives.
9. Hmmm my idea of erotic and theirs differ. There is plenty of sex mentioned but largely off screen, there are prostitutes and lovers but all in all pretty tame.
10. I enjoyed this it was a fast read and it was interesting seeing a slice of life for multiple characters over the course of a few days.
1. I have not read anything else by this author and I would give this a 3 star rating.
3. The characters were people going about their daily lives and as such apart from a few key people I did not feel the need to keep track of who was who. My favourite was the Cafe lady rude & demanding but so real.
4. There is not a plot as such this is more about people. There are storylines that did weave in and out of interactions with other characters but no definite beginning, middle and end.
5. Women are portrayed in various ways the sharp, savvy and savage cafe owner, the girl driven to prostitution, the women taken advantage of by men along with the wives and mothers.
6. We see various social classes particularly workers and beggers we don't really see an upper class.
8. I would call it realism it follows real characters going about their real lives.
9. Hmmm my idea of erotic and theirs differ. There is plenty of sex mentioned but largely off screen, there are prostitutes and lovers but all in all pretty tame.
10. I enjoyed this it was a fast read and it was interesting seeing a slice of life for multiple characters over the course of a few days.
Mod
2. Translations: apparently this may have been a challenging translation because it is a polylingual novel that is richly rooted in a specific time and place.
J M Cohen my copy was translated by Cohen. I thought the translation was good and the over all picture was adequately translated.
Here's an example; To take an example from the novel, there is no perfect English translation for the idiom “Es que estoy que no me llega la camisa al cuerpo”; to translate it literally would not make its connotative meaning available for the English-language reader, and this is the meaning that is important: The man who says it is not really having a problem with his shirt. We can say the same for Womack’s decision to translate this idiom as “It’s just that I’ve got the heebie-jeebies.” There is no exact translation for “heebie-jeebies” into Spanish, or any other language for that matter; but it is something that someone might say in the same context, to paraphrase linguist Eugene Nida.
Cela did not like having the novel translated and did not feel it was possible. Was her right? I am glad it was translated. I enjoyed reading it.
3. Characters
There are over 300 characters in the book. They weave in and out of the story in just a few days time. Did you find this okay or overwhelming. Were the characters, characters or were they types? Do you have a favorite? If so who and why? It was hard to not try to make connections, in fact I did often. But it also was frustrating not to get a conclusion to some of these character studies (why was the lady murdered, the suicide, the end result for Marco.
4. Plot
Is there a plot? No I would say there was not much plot.
"The first chapter is composed of 46 short scenes, which are almost entirely set within the same café, and arranged in an unclear chronological order within a period of time that’s somewhere between a few minutes and a few hours long. It introduces us to more than twenty of the café’s patrons, employees, and its cruel owner, Doña Rosa." At first the book is quite light hearted and fun. Does the feeling change and in what way?
Yes, the light hearted changes with a murder, then the many women who in prostitution of entering prostitution, the suicide, etc.
5. How are women portrayed? Give some examples if you can. Rosa is successful woman but often women have to use their sex to survive.
6. Comment on social class in the novel, how is it portrayed?
I thought Marco was one who really portrayed the social commentary when he is thinking about the toilets.
7. Comment on the narrator of the novel. Unnamed, guess the narrator might be the queen bee, lol
8. The genre of this book is considered experimental in other places it is described as "realism". What do you think? Did you like the structure? Do you think anyone has borrowed from Cela's work. I think it was both.
9. This book was banned in Spain for erotic themes? Comments on the eroticism found in the book. Was it necessary to the development of the novel or just as opportunity for immoral expression? If this is eroticism then what would you describe books now with their graphic depictions?
10. Any other comments, quotes, opinions? Did you enjoy it, hate it, does it belong on the list?
"the aim of wars to reduce the number of people who can do their necessary jobs in comfort." pg 55
pg 82 "I won't hear of a labor contract."
pg 171 "resort of old people who come there to feed on sunshine like lizards".
1. Have you read anything else by the author? I have not read anything else by the author and I gave it a 3.5 star rating rounded up to 4 for GR.
2. I read the J. M. Cohen and Arturo Barea translation. I suspect that they did an imperfect but nevertheless serviceable translation given all the dialogue which often used idioms and street expressions. My Spanish is very limited.
3. Characters
I very quickly gave up on attempting to remember who everyone was and how they were related to each other, and yet over the 3 days in the first part of the novel, I did, in fact, come to understand who most of the main players were and their connection to some of the others. It felt as if I was not really supposed to distinguish each and every character, and in this way, I got an impression of the whole rather than the parts. Likewise, I didn't care for any one individual but did care for them as a whole.
4. Plot
I didn't think it started out light hearted and fun. I thought that although there was humor, right from the get go the reader encounters people who have no where to go and no money to purchase cigarettes or coffee. This was the beginning of the subtle sense of dread that builds up over the course of the book.
5. How are women portrayed? Give some examples if you can.
There are a few women that have married well and are well off because they have persevered and worked hard at retaining their money, for example, the wife of the peasant farmer. There are women that work hard for a living or at least do what they can for a living including our loud and brash Doña Rosa and the woman who irons for a living. There are no upper class people that have inherited their money and exhaust it. Largely there are women that realize that they will have to sell themselves in order to either get what they want (medicine for a sick fiancé) or worse, what they need; shelter and food for themselves or their children.
6. Comment on social class in the novel, how is it portrayed?
The classes appeared to have been compressed during this time in Franco's Spain. The middle class (doctors, bakers and civil servants etc.) aren't much better off than the working class (waiters, policemen etc.) although they do have some funds to spend and are not totally starving. The working class is very close to being out on the street, especially the women, and those without jobs (and there are quite a few) are desperately trying to scare up 10 or 20 pesatas to make it through. There were people whose main meal of the day was chestnuts (2 hot and 2 cold). The upper classes were not part of this particular hive although the presence of authorities did hum in the background.
7. Comment on the narrator of the novel.
The narrator has a somewhat more neutral tone than the dialogue does and has more refined language presentation and less colloquial than the dialogue does.
8. The genre of this book is considered experimental in other places it is described as "realism".
Although I recognize the experimental nature of having so many characters and so little motivations that could be considered a plot, when I was reading the book, it struck me as being very realistic and that it reflected what it was really like at that time in Madrid. Also, the fact that the book does not resolve many of its threads, for example, we do not find out who the murderer was or what was printed in the newspaper regarding Martin, also marks it as being "modern".
9. This book was banned in Spain for erotic themes? Comments on the eroticism found in the book. Was it necessary to the development of the novel or just as opportunity for immoral expression?
If you are going to have a realistic portrayal of a few days in the life of Madrid during this time period it would seem to be necessary to also reflect that there were homosexual people living there and that the economic stress was causing women to resort to selling themselves. Likewise, although Cela could have portrayed all his male characters as having a strict fidelity to only one partner, no reader would have seen that as realistic. The characters in general were vulnerable and desperate for connection and this was often demonstrated as a desire for sex, although there were characters who were simply using others sexually.
10.
I did enjoy it and I do think it should be on the list.
1. Have you read anything else by the author? Have you read this book? If so, did you like it? Give us your 3 to 5 word review of the novel.I haven't read anything else by this author.
I did enjoy this book (4 stars).
Madrid is the buzzing hive.
2. Translations: apparently this may have been a challenging translation because it is a polylingual novel that is richly rooted in a specific time and place. Which translation did you read? How did the translater do in your opinion.
I read the translation by J M Cohen with Arturo Bartea.
I thought they did a good job of translating the dialogue in a way that sounded natural, without being too literal which would not seem realistic. But I don't read Spanish so I don't really know.
3. Characters
I didn't try to keep track. Rosa was the most memorable for me. I never sorted out the older women, Dona this and Dona that. Towards the end I started to see how things fitted together and how the characters or their actions related to other characters. I didn't exactly have a favourite, although I felt sorry for Martin.
4. Plot. Is there a plot?
There is a kind of murder plot, although it's rather frustrating, especially at the end when we know there is something about Martin in the newspaper but not what it is. I assumed he was going to be arrested for the murder, but did he do it? Why would he?
5. How are women portrayed? Give some examples if you can.
I thought the portrayal of women was mostly unsympathetic. The older women just gossip and boast about their children. The younger ones turn to prostitution and don't seem to see what a short-term solution it is. Rosa is shown as powerful but mean. Maybe Cela was trying to show that women did not have many options.
6. Comment on social class in the novel, how is it portrayed?
I didn't get much sense of class in this novel. A lot seemed to depend on money and on politics - which side a person had supported in the civil war. It wasn't good to be known as a socialist.
7. Comment on the narrator of the novel.
The book has an omniscient narrator who knows everybody's thoughts.
8. The genre of this book is considered experimental in other places it is described as "realism". What do you think? Did you like the structure? Do you think anyone has borrowed from Cela's work.
I did mostly like the structure, and it did seem like realism of the gritty sort.
9. This book was banned in Spain for erotic themes? Comments on the eroticism found in the book. Was it necessary to the development of the novel or just as opportunity for immoral expression?
I wouldn't call it erotic! I found the descriptions of sexual realtionships in the book depressing, except for the girl who is happy in the apartment with her boyfriend. But Franco's regime banned many books for many reasons. The homosexual characters and the extramarital sex could be reasons.
10. Any other comments, quotes, opinions? Did you enjoy it, hate it, does it belong on the list?
I'm glad I read this. I definitely appreciated it, and I think it belongs on the list.
Mod
I haven't read anything else by this author.
I did enjo..."
Funny, I had no empathy for Martin. I found him irritating. I never thought of him as the murderer but now that you mention it; he despised people with money and position and thought everyone should be equal. I don’t know if they had money but perhaps she did. She was certainly eccentric. Later Martin had a lot of money which he ended up losing. Perhaps he stole the money. If he was going to kill anyone you’d think it would have been Rosa.
Mod
No, this is my first contact with Cela. The Hive is Madrid in 1942. I’m giving it 3.5 stars.
2. Translations: apparently this may have been a challenging translation because it is a polylingual novel that is richly rooted in a specific time and place.
Are there others? Which translation did you read? How did the translater do in your opinion.
Cela did not like having the novel translated and did not feel it was possible. Was he right?
I read a French translation from Henri Astor. Some words or expressions in Spanish were left untranslated and often accompanied with an explanatory footnote. Considering the proximity of French to Spanish and the possibility that some (regional) Spanish expressions might have a correspondence in French, I would say that I might not have lost that much meaning in the story compared to an English translation.
3. Characters
There are over 300 characters in the book. They weave in and out of the story in just a few days time. Did you find this okay or overwhelming. Were the characters, characters or were they types? Do you have a favorite? If so who and why?
The novel was written to depict Madrid in 1942 and aimed at portraying a collective of characters rather than focusing on a few main characters. Despite that objective, there are still some main characters upon whom the various storylines are woven (e.g. Martin, doña Rosa, doña Margot, don Roberto, Victorita). I don’t really have a favourite character among them, most of them are pitiable to various degrees and reinforce the bleakness of the era.
4. Plot
Is there a plot?
"The first chapter is composed of 46 short scenes, which are almost entirely set within the same café, and arranged in an unclear chronological order within a period of time that’s somewhere between a few minutes and a few hours long. It introduces us to more than twenty of the café’s patrons, employees, and its cruel owner, Doña Rosa." At first the book is quite light hearted and fun. Does the feeling change and in what way?
As is described on the back cover of the novel, it feels like a photo album or a suite of flashes through daily life in Madrid, 1942, in the aftermath of the Civil War. Although the beginning might have felt a bit light-hearted, the novel becomes more and more pessimistic as we immerse ourselves in some details of the characters’ private lives and troubles. Sure, the murder of doña Margot offers a pretext for a plot, yet it still does not feel as the main thread linking all the parts of the novel.
5. How are women portrayed? Give some examples if you can.
On the whole, with the exception of doña Rosa, not really in a very good light. At times, they are merely objects, subject to the whims of the men who exploit them; elsewhere, they are mothers of several children regardless of the financial stability of the family. Some are dreaming of better days or situations through the fog of daily reality. A lot of them are quite devout, despite their actions.
6. Comment on social class in the novel, how is it portrayed?
I have the same impressions as Gail: even though some appear to be better off and middle class, the class differences with the lower class are very blurred.
7. Comment on the narrator of the novel.
It reminds me a bit of the camera-eye concept from Dziga Vertov at the beginnings of Soviet cinema: the multiple point of views espoused by the narrator even though seemingly neutral and objective still convey a subjectivity that you can’t ignore.
8. The genre of this book is considered experimental in other places it is described as "realism". What do you think? Did you like the structure? Do you think anyone has borrowed from Cela's work.
I think both epithets can apply, although using a collective as the hero of a novel has been the bread and butter of Soviet literature and cinema. I didn’t mind the structure, although it was sometimes harder to keep track of certain characters. I don’t think that Georges Perec borrowed from Cela when he wrote Life: A User’s Manual, yet I can see some parallels with the focus he had on the detailed life of a multi-level building’s inhabitants.
9. This book was banned in Spain for erotic themes? Comments on the eroticism found in the book. Was it necessary to the development of the novel or just as opportunity for immoral expression?
It was necessary for two reasons: one, to keep in line with the realist approach adopted for the novel; life had to be described as it was. Two, because Madrid was shown throughout the novel as a collective living organism with two main basic instincts: hunger and sex.
1. Have you read anything else by the author? Give us your 3 to 5 word review of the novel.This was my first by him. Good but confusing at times.
2. Translations: apparently this may have been a challenging translation because it is a polylingual novel that is richly rooted in a specific time and place.
Cela did not like having the novel translated and did not feel it was possible. Was he right?
My copy from the university library was translated by Cohen. It seemed to read pretty well, though I was aware that some phrases were obviously figurative translations from the Spanish.
3. Characters
There are over 300 characters in the book. They weave in and out of the story in just a few days time. Did you find this okay or overwhelming. Were the characters, characters or were they types?
Some of the characters appeared a lot, others just briefly once, twice or three times and I found that somewhat confusing at times to try to remember their previous appearance in the book, what they said or did then. I think the characters are very well-drawn and realistic in general.
4. Is there a plot?
"The first chapter is composed of 46 short scenes, which are almost entirely set within the same café, and arranged in an unclear chronological order within a period of time that’s somewhere between a few minutes and a few hours long. It introduces us to more than twenty of the café’s patrons, employees, and its cruel owner, Doña Rosa." At first the book is quite light hearted and fun. Does the feeling change and in what way?
Yeah, there isn't a lot of plot but some. It is generally darker in the second half.
5. How are women portrayed? Give some examples if you can.
These are a lot of questions- sorry but I'm going to skip to #10.
6. Comment on social class in the novel, how is it portrayed?
7. Comment on the narrator of the novel.
8. The genre of this book is considered experimental in other places it is described as "realism". What do you think? Did you like the structure? Do you think anyone has borrowed from Cela's work.
9. This book was banned in Spain for erotic themes? Comments on the eroticism found in the book. Was it necessary to the development of the novel or just as opportunity for immoral expression?
10. Any other comments, quotes, opinions? Did you enjoy it, hate it, does it belong on the list?
I did enjoy it (though not 5 stars worth) and think it's appropriate for the 1001 Books list.
1. Have you read anything else by the author? Give us your 3 to 5 word review of the novel.No, this was my first by Cela. Madrid’s streets are buzzing.
2. Translations: apparently this may have been a challenging translation because it is a polylingual novel that is richly rooted in a specific time and place. Which translation did you read? How did the translator do in your opinion.
I read the Womack translation. I think the translator did well - it was clearly rooted in Madrid and had a distinctive feel and rhythm that I believe reflected the original.
Cela did not like having the novel translated and did not feel it was possible. Was he right? I can understand the author feeling this way, but there is always a gap between author and reader anyway, even a Spanish reader may not receive the exact meaning Cela intended. A good translator will convey as much as possible of the original.
3. Characters
There are over 300 characters in the book. They weave in and out of the story in just a few days time. Did you find this okay or overwhelming. Were the characters, characters or were they types? Do you have a favorite? If so who and why?
It was overwhelming at times, but the characters are not fully formed and I think it may help to think of them as types. We get impressions of them as they buzz around. I quite liked Celestino the bar owner and Martin.
4. Plot
Is there a plot? At first the book is quite light hearted and fun. Does the feeling change and in what way?
There isn’t really a plot, the characters come and go to build up a picture of a specific time and place. I didn’t find it lighthearted and fun at first, I always thought there was an air of menace and a feel of shabbiness from the time we enter the café
5. How are women portrayed? Give some examples if you can. Stupid, promiscuous, deceitful, dishonest, gossipy. Many of them are also ugly, with moustaches and bad teeth and are either too fat or too thin.
6. Comment on social class in the novel, how is it portrayed? We see very little of anyone wealthy or of social standing, although the men who are able to pay to have a woman by their side tend to look down on the others. Even small business owners seem to be struggling,
7. Comment on the narrator of the novel.
There is an omniscient narrator who remains detached from events and characters. I think this works well for this type of novel.
8. The genre of this book is considered experimental in other places it is described as "realism". What do you think? Did you like the structure? Do you think anyone has borrowed from Cela's work.
I think it has elements of realism but is very different from 19th century realism for example. The structure is experimental, but events and people are described plainly without adding emotional or sentimental direction. I liked the approach for the variety of characters and the way the changes of focus kept my interest, but it was also a bit too overwhelming at times.
9. This book was banned in Spain for erotic themes, Comment on the eroticism found in the book. Was it necessary to the development of the novel or just as opportunity for immoral expression?
I think Cela wanted it to be one of his themes and show the way attitudes to sex shaped the society he was writing about. For me personally he laboured the point so that it became a bit repetitive - maybe as a result of having so many similar characters involved in similar relationships - but I do feel he had a clear purpose in mind,
10. Any other comments, quotes, opinions? Did you enjoy it, hate it, does it belong on the list
I liked it but didn’t love it, it was interesting but not exciting. I was expecting a more overtly political book in some ways. I think it should be on the list.
1. Yes, I have read Journey to the Alcarria, Journeys Through the Spanish Countryside, which I enjoyed and gave 4 stars. I have now finished The Hive. Although I quite liked the snapshots of colourful characters, I found it very hard to keep reading and kept dozing off. The Hive is Madrilenos Alive.2. I read this on Open Library in a translation by J.M.Cohen with Arturo Barea, as did several others. I thought it was well done, but of course, the subtleties of dialect were lost in translation.
3. I found it confusing, especially when characters reappeared, but it was obvious that the author wanted the reader to get a feel for the whole, rather than individual characters.
4. I didn't find it particularly lighthearted, although Cela poked gentle fun at many characters. As there was no resolution and the reader is left wondering what Martin has done, it is not plot driven in the usual sense.
5. Most of the women are stupid and superficial or naive, or both. Dona Rosa is independent but malicious and irrational. Husbands barely tolerate their wives and frequent brothels. My favourite was Martin's friend from university who was independent and confident.6. The wealthiest person was the farmer who wanted to buy the cafe but she commented that people in the countryside resented their wealth which is why she wanted to move back to the city. Nearly everyone else was struggling with poverty, although there were some who did not want to work like the perpetual law student or the guy who wanted a job in the civil service because he would not have to get to work on time.
7. The narrator described characters without comment, leaving it to the reader to surmise their individuality.
8. I read somewhere that Manhattan Transfer has a similar structure. It will be interesting to do the ocmparison. Maybe Cela borrowed the idea?
9. There are several passages which are still shocking, particularly the procurement of the child. The brothels and their madames are described impartially, which may have upset the authorities, and then there were the homosexuals. The father meeting his daughter in the brothel may have also given them pause.
10. I did find it difficult to focus on this book and probably would not have persevered if I had not loved The Journey.
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