TDP: Section 4: 7th Geder - 7th Dawson

[Bill]

Please keep all discussion to the events and speculation from this section.

No spoiler tags required. Though it would be highly appreciated if you Uncheck Add to my Update Feed to avoid accidentally spoiling this for your good read friends.

Please do not discuss events from later chapters. Referring back to events from a previous section/book is fine.

[Sky]

Section 4 is Kindle loc 3534-4750

First sentence "Ariot?" Geder said, his heart sinking.

Last sentence "Dawson wondered, almost idly, where Geder Palliako had gotten to."

For the audible version narrated by Pete Bradbury:

Section 4 starts at 8:23:32

[Sky]

Holy cow...I can't believe Geder just put the entire city of Vanai to the torch! From pilfering a few gems and accepting a cloak as a bribe to murdering 10,000 innocent civilians. I just finished his chapter so I have no idea how this will affect him going forward, but his is pretty blasé about it immediately after the fact.

In my head I'm comparing it to the slaughter at Garritson in Lightbringer and how it affected both the characters in the book and the opinions of the populace...This can't go over well.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

Oh Geder!

[Lindsay]

I suspect a lot of people who read books like this one partly identify with Geder in the early part of this book. I certainly did. He's bookish, nerdishly obsessive and ill-suited to anything involving actual people.

So it's a bit of a shock when he turns around and does something actually psychopathic. This is like something out of his books, at which point you realize that what we would read as fairly typical obsessive fanishness/nerdish behavior isn't actually that. The worlds of his books are actually more real to him than real life. He can order the horrific deaths of 10,000 people with barely a flicker of humanity because this is his world where such atrocities are just something to read about.

But what I find even more disturbing is that the tone of his POV chapters does not change. He's still the hero of his own story after confirming to the world that he's a monster.

[Sky]

well said!

[Scott M]

Yes, this is the part of the book that makes me wonder what Daniel Abraham is doing with the narrative.

I identified with Geder. Then to have him do this as a POV character... Then you've also got Dawson, who isn't the 'progressive' character, but very reactionary...

Starts to make me wonder if Marcus and Cithrin are also going to be bad guys, and this is a whole story told from the evil point of view.

I still think Marcus is good, but I can't trust who's 'good' just because they're a POV character. Makes it even more interesting.

[Robyn]

Lindsay wrote: "I suspect a lot of people who read books like this one partly identify with Geder in the early part of this book. I certainly did. He's bookish, nerdishly obsessive and ill-suited to anything invol..."

This is spot on, in my opinion.

Rob wrote: "Oh Geder!"

I think I actually said that aloud when I got to that chapter.

[Suzanne]

I did too - that scene stuck with me because it was so unexpected. Not out of character...but not what I EXPECTED from his character. Lindsay I thought you summarized that really well!

[Scott]

It's so awesome seeing people's reactions to this stuff. Rob summed it up perfectly.

[Justine]

Lindsay wrote: "He's still the hero of his own story after confirming to the world that he's a monster. "

Fair enough...but who isn't like that? I do think that Geder realizes that he's done something horrific, but as usual, he has no idea what to do about it and no one to turn to. I think his thinking on this becomes more apparent later...honestly, without page numbers I'm getting a tiny bit confused exactly what section we are on as I'm finding it hard to count the names on my ereader TOC (I knew this would happen! :) )

[Teanka]

I agree to your reactions when Geder burnt Vanai. It was horrible and unexpected. But as a consequence it led to Cithrin opening a branch of the bank... now that's also something that took me by surprise. Yet it was so logical, why risk losing the entire fortune when you can invest it? Cithrin has really grown as a character and has me interested in her schemes.

[Andreas]

Lindsay wrote: "He's still the hero of his own story after confirming to the world that he's a monster."

There is an inherent logic in his evilness. Nor does the context and moral ambiguity of his world make it much better. Worst for me is his initial shame only leading to be a pawn bathed in glory.

Alex wrote: "I like how Abraham constantly plays with your expectations."

Exactly what I don't like. I already expect to happen what I usually wouldn't expect in a very predictable way. I mean, it isn't even remotely subtle but he uses a sledgehammer.

Teanka wrote: "But as a consequence it led to Cithrin opening a branch of the bank"

That's what I meant that the POVs handshake each other very well - quite a difference from GRRM's use of that literary device in ASoIaF where he just changes to near and far.

[Sumant]

Alex wrote: Also, do we think Cirith somehow has the spider power? She uses similar words to Master Kit to convince Marcus to do something. As in "Listen to me. Listen to me" and then Marcus agrees after resisting for so long. If she does, I don't think she knows it yet. "

I did not notice this, did Kit transfer some powers into her when he convinced her because he says to her that he gets convinced about something only he is sure about it, I am just speculating here.

My duty as Protector of Vanai is not to the city itself, but to Antea. If I thought our continued presence here would benefit the crown, I would stay, and so would all of you. But if the history books show anything, it’s that this city has cost good and noble men their lifeblood with no lasting advantage to the Severed Throne, no matter who was seated there at the time. In my role as assigned me by Lord Ternigan in the name of King Simeon, I have determined that Vanai cannot be profitably held. I’ve written as much to King Simeon. The courier with my justification of these orders is already on the dragon’s roads for Camnipol.” “So we just walk away home?” Maas said. There was outrage in his voice. “We hand it over to whichever of our enemies happens by?” “Of course not,” Geder said

This was a shocker for me because I liked Geder so far but he is surely something different from what he is shown to be.

I’ve been to war,” Dawson said. “I’ve seen men die. What you’re carrying now, I’ve carried as well, and it will haunt you as long as you hold it. So tell me.” “You didn’t do what we’ve done, Father.” “I’ve killed men.” “We killed children,” Jorey said. “We killed women. Old men who had nothing more to do with the campaign than to live in Vanai. And we killed them. We took away the water and lit them on fire. When they tried to come over the walls, we cut them down.” His voice was trembling now, his eyes horror-wide but tearless. “We did an evil thing, Father.” “What did you think war is?” Dawson said. “We’re men, Jorey. Not boys swinging sticks at each other and pronouncing the evil wizard’s defeat. We do what duty and honor demand, and often what we do is terrible

Dawson does not regret any of the actions he has done so far, while he tries to justify Geder's burning of Vanai

Men, women, dogs, and kings. We all have our places. My place is in court, following the voice and law of the throne. A farmer’s place is on a farm. If you tell a pig keeper he deserves a chair in court, you put the order of society itself in question, including my right to pass judgment on his actions. And once we’ve lost that, Lord Issandrian, we’ve lost everything.

I am hating Dawson more and more because he seems selfish and greedy noble, and I find myself rooting for Issandrian who at least is shown to be rooting for lower masses and asking the other nobles to change their views about the lower classes.

Also Cithrin took a wise decision.