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Bel-Ami
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Bel Ami - Part 2, Ch 1 - 4
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The scene with DuRoy (that's Du Roy De Cantel to you and me) and Madame Walter inside the church was quite dramatic. Starting with him laughing on the way to the rendezvous... "Churches are useful to her in all sorts of ways..."Since I know people who would be offended by that yet today, I suppose some people were scandalized in 1875 -- like book-banning, or telling their kids they weren't allowed to read it?
Mod
Bonnie, your post made me smile thinking about the book being banned. I have a feeling, but will admit to no knowledge, that the French audience would find this less offensive that some would find it today. A very good question, indeed.
Mod
Deborah wrote: "What do you think about Duriy's reaction to the possibility that Madeline had a lover while married to Forestier?"I think that was part of his insecurities. He became obsessed with Forestier because of the jokes people made about him being Forestier, and he knows that his wife was the one writing the articles but he didn't like the idea of other people perhaps guessing at it.
I think he is generally frustrated and angry with his own incompetence, or inabilities and of knowing that he really isn't that different from Forestier because of how much he depends upon Madeline so he lashes out against Foresiter and creates this idea of him as being a cuckold fool and mocks him as a way of trying to boost his own ego and assuage his insecurities.
And it could also be his own fears and insecurities that if she had a lover with Foresiter that she may have a lover with him as well but he doesn't really want to confront that idea so he projects his feelings onto the dead Forestier.
Bonnie wrote: "The scene with DuRoy (that's Du Roy De Cantel to you and me) and Madame Walter inside the church was quite dramatic. Starting with him laughing on the way to the rendezvous... "Churches are useful ..."I thought the whole episode of Madeline wanting to change Duroy's name to make it sound more sophisticated was quite amusing.
Also I loved the whole fencing match in the cellar scene. That was like 19th Century fight club.
First rule of Fence Club
don't tell anybody about Fence Club.
Silver wrote: "First rule of Fence Clubdon't tell anybody about Fence Club. "
That made me laugh out loud at the coffeehouse.
This section had several very visual scenes, that made me want to watch one of the film adaptations once we are done. The trip to Rouen was described so beautifully. I even went online and looked for photos of Rouen. and Rouen hats.
I was hopeful for a while that they ("Geo" & "Mado" Du Roy De Cantel) would be happy. It seemed like they liked, respected and were attracted to one another, and that they could fall in love and have a good marriage. But no.
Duroy is going downhill this section: jealousy of a widow's dead husband is lame, and he seems to be chasing after Madame Walter for no good reason. Not for love or even boredom or sexual desire really; isn't more like he wants to test whether he can seduce her -- her heart as well as her body -- that is bad in my book.
I read the chapters really quickly though so I may be reading into it.
I think the mere suggestion that someone might like him is enough for Duroy to suddenly take an interest. As I said before, he is quite good at sabotaging himself, so now that he has what he thought he wanted, he is not happy and is going to ruin it with his behavior. It is quite entertaining that he is so petty about what might have happened with the first Forestier marriage, while he is getting involved with two other women during his current marriage. The age old double standard!
Bonnie wrote: "I was hopeful for a while that they ("Geo" & "Mado" Du Roy De Cantel) would be happy. It seemed like they liked, respected and were attracted to one another, and that they could fall in love and have a good marriage. But no. ."I think they could have an agreeable partnership (if not romantic marriage) they work well together as business partners and I believe Duroy said that they had a good friendship when he was talking to Clo. So while they might not have a passionate/affectionate marriage, they could be happy in their own way working together and each having their own separate amorous pursuits elsewhere. But I do fear that Duroy might ruin even that if his current behavior, particularly regarding his obsession with Forestier persists.
It seems that his pursuit of Madame Walter is driven purely from the challenge of being able to do it sense Madeline told him that Madame Walter would never be unfaithful to her husband, that in itself made Duroy want seduce her, just to say that he could.
His whole seemingly being attracted to her daughter while attempting to seduce the mother is a bit creepy. I wound if in fact he will attempt to seduce the daughter was well. The thought was put in his head that if he had not married Madeline he might have been married off to the daughter, I wonder if that will make him regret his marriage?
Mod
I think that was part of his insecurities. He became obsessed wit..."
An interesting perspective re insecurities. I don't see him as insecure. My take on him is he is ambitious in that he wants money, social standing, and prestige, but lazy in that he wants it all without having to work for it.
Mod
I thought Madeline and Duroy would have a good marriage, and there seems to have been a sexual aspect to it (i.e. on the train). The problems seem to have been created when Duroy started to assume that Madeline cheated on Forestier.
Duroy is very self-destructive. He almost reaches what he deems to be happiness, then shoots himself in the foot. At least in my translation, it's not readily apparent that Madeline has a lover while with Forestier. Besides, Duroy has had lovers too. Yes, the old double standard, but perhaps another opportunity for de Maupassant to explore opposites - ambition/lazy, ok for men/not ok for women. Just a thought.
Deborah wrote: An interesting perspective re insecurities. I don't see him as insecure. My take on him is he is ambitious in that he wants money, social standing, and prestige, but lazy in that he wants it all without having to work for it. ."
I agree that he does want all those things, and that perhaps he is not willing to really put the hard work and effort into it to try and and achieve those things. But I think that maybe his laziness or seeming laziness could be tied into his lack of confidence within himself and his own abilities.
I do think he is very aware of how much he relies upon Madeline for the articles and working on the paper and it is further rubbed in with the jokes others make of calling him Monsieur Forestier.
This bothers him because he is aware of his own inability to write for himself. Just as when he first got the job on the paper, and after the Forestier's blew him off and wouldn't help him with his second article, he thought he would show them all by writing it himself but what he wrote was unpublishable.
The same with the dual. Leading up to it he was certain he was going to die, because he lacked confidence in his own ability in spite of his presumed military background, he convinced himself that his opponent must surely be a really good shot for making the challenge to him, and he had no faith in his own skill.
I think that part of his seduction of other women, especially married women, being able to lure a woman away from her husband, and risk everything, in order to be with him, is a confidence booster for him. It proves to him that he really is this person whom he wants to be, it makes him feel like he is better than someone else (i.e. the husbands).
I think that if all he cared about was his social standing, money and prestige, and if he was self-assured but lazy he would not be as sensitive to the topic of Forestier.
Mod
An interesting perspective re insecurities. I don't see him as insecure. My take on him is he is ambitious in that he wants money, social standing, and prestige, but lazy in that he..."
I think his frustration with being teased about Forestier wasn't insecurity, but frustration in not being perceived with the status he felt he was due. Reality didn't match his egotistical view of himself. He admires himself in the mirrors. He says he's irrestible to women. He falls into careers without worrying about anything but the prestige and money. He appears to have no conscience.
Yes, he got a bit nervous, at first, in the society situations. I attribute that to normal butterflies due to a new situation. It's fun to see a different perspective than the one I see.
I kept reading this book and thinking what a double standard. I did some research on 1800's law and found out there was a huge double standard. Women were second class citizens. For adultery the woman could get prison time 2-4 years. A man got a small fine. If Duroy and Mme Walter had kids, she lost custody. A woman had to go through the courts to prove adultery. A man just had to bring a witness and catch her in the act. Grounds for an automatic divorce. This information came from Wikpedia, so feel free to make corrections.
I meant MMe Duroy, his wife. There are too many affairs in this book. I can't keep the women straight.
Well summarised Cindy. A woman would also be ostracised if she was divorced, for whatever reason but a man wouldn't.
Mod
Cindy, you are correct. It was the same in England and the U.S. Up until the 1940s a husband could arbitrarily commit his wife to an insane asylum. Not to mention, the social stigmas and exclusion which could face the woman.
In these chapters there is mention of the cup-and-ball game, which was popular in Victorian times. In Bel Ami it is used by the journalists like an executive toy, which is a reflection of what happened in Maupassant's own office where the newspaper proprietor encouraged his staff to play it. http://www.victoriana.com/antiquetoys...
Silver wrote: "It seems that his pursuit of Madame Walter is driven purely from the challenge of being able to do it sense Madeline told him that Madame Walter would never be unfaithful to her husband, that in itself made Duroy want seduce her, just to say that he could. "Absolutely. I also got the impression that Madeleine is almost pushing him towards infidelity - perhaps to assuage her own guilt, or perhaps, more likely, to make it easier to arrange her own rendezvous with all these unknown sources of inside information?
Pip wrote: I also got the impression that Madeleine is almost pushing him towards infidelity - perhaps to assuage her own guilt, or perhaps, more likely, to make it easier to arrange her own rendezvous with all these unknown sources of inside information? ."Yes she does seem to goad him into doing it. She is the one that first tells him that Madame Walter likes him and makes the remark to him about marrying Walter's daughter.
The way in which she always reacts to Duroy's jokes about Monsieur Forestier being a cuckold, it could just be that she doesn't like the disrespect to her dead husband, but it gives me the impression that she does not like the jokes because she is doing the same thing to Duroy that she did to Forestier. Hearing how Duroy speaks of him maybe she is worried about how he will react if he found out about her affairs.
I think in a way that getting him distracted with other women is a way to keep him out of her hair.
One thing I wondered about when Duroy and Madame Walter are intimately together for the first time Madame Walter tells Duroy she is a virgin. I know she isn't literally a virgin at least presumably not since she is married and has two daughters. Does she perceive herself as a virgin because she has not slept with anyone but her husband?
Because Duroy is her first lover she feels as if she is a virgin?
Whereabouts did she say that, Silver?
Pip wrote: "Whereabouts did she say that, Silver?"I'll answer my own question - it's just into chapter V. No spoiler, really. Yes, looking at the French version, I would say it means she has never given away her heart, other than perhaps to her husband. Considering how most of the other women are carrying on, that's a top bit of purity!!
Pip wrote: "Pip wrote: "Whereabouts did she say that, Silver?"I'll answer my own question - it's just into chapter V. No spoiler, really. Yes, looking at the French version, I would say it means she has neve..."
In my edition it is at the very end of chapter four
Mod
I viewed Madeline telling Duroy about Madame Walter was intended to motivate him to cultivate a relationship to gain in society. I didn't feel she was specifically expecting him to have an affair.
Silver, in my translation she doesn't use the word "virgin", I believe she simply says that she has "never loved." I don't know what the French text implies, but this makes more sense than her saying she's a virgin, because, even if she meant it figuratively, it would sound a bit ludicrous.
Oh, and just reading the rest of the comments... I actually don't think Madame Walter means she has "never given her heart" to anybody except her husband, I think she quite implicitly means she has never truly loved anybody before--including her husband.
Mod
I would agree with this statement. The Walters' marriage doesn't seem to be a love match. I wouldn't classify it is as a bad marriage, but I think it was a traditional one for the time.
The French original describes Mme. Walter as: "demeurée jusque-là strictement honnête, vierge de cœur, fermée à tout sentiment, ignorante de toute sensualité".Vierge de cœur would mean something like "a virgin in matters of the heart", or "she had a virgin heart", ie: she had never loved.
Mod
Clara wrote: "Silver, in my translation she doesn't use the word "virgin", I believe she simply says that she has "never loved." I don't know what the French text implies, but this makes more sense than her sayi..."In chapter 5 there is another line which states that she is a virgin in her heart or something close to that effect. So I think it is meant to imply she never truly loved anyone before.
Silver wrote"First rule of Fence Club don't tell anybody about Fence Club. "
Silver, I just want to thank you. I've never seen Fight Club in its entirety, but a bizarre question in pub quiz tonight came up with that very quote and I'd never have known the answer if it hadn't been for you. My team won, and as a result you are an honorary member of the team :-) Hope to meet someday so I can buy you a celebratory drink :-))
Pip wrote: "Silver wrote"First rule of Fence Club don't tell anybody about Fence Club. "
Silver, I just want to thank you. I've never seen Fight Club in its entirety, but a bizarre question in pub quiz toni..."
Haha thank you, glad I could help you and your team out.
One question that keeps coming up for me is where and how does Madame Duroy (previously Forestier) get her political information? She always seems to be on the cutting edge.
It's nearly impossible to like Duroy, especially after these chapters. He is selfish and egotistical. He truly believes he is irresistible to women. He also believes "women always want something different from the truth" (chapter 1) He tells many he loves them, yet doesn't understand love. He wants power, money, and prestige; yet is quite comfortable visiting his family. De Maupassant clearly plays with both sides of the coins.
No questions this week. I think we've gotten to know the characters and story line enough to be able to discuss without them.