The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
Gothic Project
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The Gothic Project - The Monk - Week 1
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Gem, I started today and my Kindle edition doesn't have an Introduction, just the Preface and and Advertisement. Was the Intro written by Lewis and if so, is there anything in it the reader should know about going into the read?I too am poetically-challenged so am no help on the poetry analysis.
Gem, my edition starts with Chapter 1, no introduction or preface. Should I search for another edition?
Mod
I am finding the overblown prose and the extremities of emotion a little rich for my northern soul, but there is certainly an interesting set-up with multiple potentially interesting story lines.
Mod
I also found Lorenzo removing Antonia's veil strange. Who is he to request that of a stranger, and then to touch her clothing?
I was also struck that Agnes was unable to leave the convent on her own free will (wouldn't the church be glad to be rid of nuns who don't actually want to be there, especially if they are pregnant?), but "Rosario" could (as Ambrosio was requesting "him" to do).
The phrase "pride goeth before a fall" applies to Ambrosio.
Pretty interesting so far. I hope that if anyone gets a happy ending, it's Agnes. I'm not counting on it because classic books most often tended to punish fallen women, but I hope she gets the happy marriage she wants.
What a lusty lusty tale so far. Didn't think it would be quite so much or with horny monks and a novice nun ripping her robe and exposing her breast. And kudos to Lorenzo and Christoval for their innovative girl watching technique of checking out the new nuns parading into the Cathedral. After experiencing 8 grammar school years with Holy Cross nuns, that idea never would have crossed my mind. On second thought, maybe it was not so innovative as the book does present the behavior like it's a traditional past time.
The Catholic Church sure doesn't come off very well here, especially the behavior of the clergy and the superiors toward their novice nuns. Both this and The "Italian" portray nunneries as scary prisons. As I'm also reading a book about Belgium's King Leopold killing of millions of Africans while pillaging ivory and rubber from his Congo, efforts supported by the Catholic Church and their missionaries, I'm reading two books where the Catholic Church looks just terrible.
As for Lori's question of the time frame, most sources state that it was set during the Spanish Inquisition. But the Inquisition lasted, from 1478 to 1834 so it could have been set contemporaneously with the novel.
Torquemada was the first Grand Inquisitor, operating in the late 15th century, but the setting and characters seem too lusty and less barbaric so far to be during this time period.
The braver sources who do provide a more specific time frame set the book in either the 18th Century or the 17th century. Even if Lewis intended it to be more contemporary, I'm visualizing it as set in the time period of The Three Musketeers, which was set between 1625 and 1628. Different country, different societal values, different participants but same lusty behavior. While it's a guess, it works for me.
Very dramatic start to the story, especially the developments between Ambrosio and “Rosario.” The reaction to Agnes’s romance and pregnancy seems extreme, but it also reminds me of similar situations in “The Italian.” Whatever the unknown year in which the novel was set, it rings true that it would have been during the Inquisition, in which the Catholic Church tortured and killed many who were innocent of heresy, and in which a woman could be committed to a convent and kept there against her will. Remember also that until the late 20th century, the idea of leaving the convent and forsaking one’s vows as a nun was truly scandalous, even if not forbidden. The most surprising part of the story so far was that Ambrosio, who thought so highly of himself, succumbed to sexual temptation. Does this mark him as a complete fraud?The beginning of the novel had some dramatic moments also, especially regarding Agnes’s attempts to join her lover and Ambrosio’s sermon, but there was also a comic effect due to the Aunt’s coquettish personality. The predictions of the Gypsy woman about Antonia’s future make me curious about her future role in the book.
Dramatic indeed! I would put this in the category of pulp fiction (of course the category did not exist at the time). But it has all the ingredients. We get extramarital sex, unbridled sexual desires sometimes verging on pornography. The characters are not very likable so far. Lorenzo wants to see his prey, no scruples. Especially Ambrosio is so full of himself. He is incensed by the behavior of Agnes only to fall for Rosario/Matilda shortly thereafter. He thinks of himself as being superior to everybody else, which appears to be all faked as we read further. Then he is bitten by a snake, meaning being punished for his sins against god (?). Matilda does not shy away from extreme measures to get what she wants. I doubt she will die from the poison she „sucked“ (!) out of Ambrosio. At least she finally gets the sexual encounter she desires so much. I guess that leaves Agnes, she sinned as well, and she is bound to suffer because of this. But so far she is the most likable of the bunch.I wonder what other things the author has up his sleeves to top what happened so far.
I have been trying to read this but I get very tired of narratives of predatory/manipulative men and objectified women, so I may DNF and move on to Olive.
Mod
1)... I was surprised by Don Lorenzo's attempt, then action to remove Antonia's veil. Do you think this action was acceptable? Does this give up any indication of how women were viewed at the time? How women will be treated? Or do you think this is a one-off based on a young man's boldness?It is explained that in Madrid you do not wear a veil in church compared to the town of her upbringing. So from that point of view I understand the questioning of the veil. We might also question another custom and try to convince the other about your own customs.
However, his acting on it is to me a very strong breach of social distance. He does not know her at all, and "violating" her privacy in such a way shows that women were not considered anything else, but an object for the amusement of men
2) After Leonella explains the predicament that Antonia and her mother are in, Lorenzo offers to intercede for them. Why do you think he does this? Out of the kindness of his heart or rather to ingratiate himself to the family?
Good question. At first I thought it was out of goodwill due to him knowing the Marquis. It seems so natural that someone needs a favour of someone you know that you would offer to help. However, in this case there is - of course - also his attraction to Antonia. Helping her might support his seeing her again and again and maybe even raising devotion from her side.
3) ... He has deserved this - who but him has come through youth unsullied by any temptation? Religion cannot boast his equal. What are your initial impressions about him? Do you think his high opinion of himself will hurt him/be his downfall in the end?5) ... Do you think these emotions are new to him? Or has Ambrosio simply not recognized and not dealt with them?
I think he must be not only a good speaker/ preacher, but also very handsome. His popularity with the women is maybe also based that they can idolize him without having to expect to be exploited. He is a holy man, bound to celibacy. So to have a "little" crush on him is quite save.
You can even see that in Rosario/Matilda.
He naturally has a quite high opinion of himself, as he has never been really tempted before and does not even know what there is out there. If you have grown up secluded in convent with only monks it might be easy to say of yourself that you cannot be tempted. But the real temptation is not within those walls, but without. Matilda has come into this holy secluse, and all of a sudden he learns that he can also be weak., which might be difficult for him to cope with.
4) ... Was this the right thing to do? Do you believe this to be his true intention? Or is it possible that he is, in essence looking down his nose at her because he feels he is free of sin?
He must have felt it his duty to report the letter. At this moment he might not understand how easily you can be tempted. It is even harder if you were put into a convent against your own will. Naturally your devotion to abiding to the rules will be different if you are kept their involuntarily.
6) Ambrosio is bitten by a snake while picking a flower for Matilda, the doctor declares he will be dead in three days. ... Do you think this will be the beginning of Ambrosio's downfall?He must definitely be impressed that Matilda would give his life for him.
As the snake is the downfall of Adam and Eve in Paradise, it could also be the symbol for Ambrosio´s downfall. The snake as the religious symbol of temptation.
Lori wrote: "Does anyone know in what time period this is supposed to take place?"I was actually wondering the same thing and thought I had read it somewhere, but looking it up I could not find anything . My Oxford World Classics edition has a lot of annotations. So I thought I had read it there somewhere, but the only thing I could find now is the fact that the Order of the Capuchins was formed in 1525, and there was a reference to Don Qixote de la Mancha published in the early 1600s. So I guess it plays some time in the period between 1650 and 1750.
Lori wrote: "... - which, if it happens, is even more alarming because she's probably his sister."Lori, what has led you to this conclusion? It is an interesting point and I wonder whether I might have missed a clue to this.
Oops, now I have made all these comments without realizing that I forgot to read the last 3 pages of this section.And how aroused this section ends. I must admit I was quite surprised and am now rather sure of Ambrosio’s downfall in the future.
Mod
Antonia's parents left a little boy behind when they fled Spain. He was taken by his grandfather, who later reported he had died. I don't believe him.
Ambrosio was left at an abbey as a child and would be the right age to be Antonia's much-older brother. Gothic literature has a lot of weird coincidences like that, so I figured Ambrosio's parentage would be relevant.
Lori wrote: "Hedi wrote: "Lori, what has led you to this conclusion? It is an interesting point and I wonder whether I might have missed a clue to this."Antonia's parents left a little boy behind when they fl..."
Very good catch, Lori! I had forgotten about that, but thought about that possibility at the time when I read those lines about her background.
Mod
Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy week. The intro was written by Allen Grove, a professor of English at Alfred University. It has some information about Lewis and some of the authors who influenced him. Not terribly important if you ask me.
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The Preface is a poem. I don't think you're missing anything by not reading it.
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I agree about the overblown prose. I expect that is because Lewis was so young when he wrote this. Although it reads to more like a teenage girl wrote it.
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I missed that connection completely. Great catch.
I need to post a disclaimer. I don't get/understand most poetry. I'm not sure why, I've tried. I "get" Dr. Seuss but anything more than that I struggle with. I'm pretty literal which is why parodies and satire generally go over my head. I think the way poetry is often written with breaks in places that are not at the end of the sentences is part of the problem for me. Basically, I don't know how to read it. So, I probably won't be commenting on the poems... that said, if you want to discuss the poetry please feel free, I'll probably learn a thing or three.
1) We met Leonella, Antonia, Don Lorenzo, and Don Christoval in church. The environment described by the author is more akin to a singles bar (the men are here to look at the women, and the women are here to show themselves). I was surprised by Don Lorenzo's attempt, then action to remove Antonia's veil. Do you think this action was acceptable? Does this give up any indication of how women were viewed at the time? How women will be treated? Or do you think this is a one-off based on a young man's boldness?
2) After Leonella explains the predicament that Antonia and her mother are in, Lorenzo offers to intercede for them. Why do you think he does this? Out of the kindness of his heart or rather to ingratiate himself to the family?
3) We also met Ambrosio and learned of his background and that he is the most sought-after confessor in the area. He is beginning to grow conceited. He congratulates himself on his popularity as a confessor and speaker. He has deserved this - who but him has come through youth unsullied by any temptation? Religion cannot boast his equal. What are your initial impressions about him? Do you think his high opinion of himself will hurt him/be his downfall in the end?
4) Next we meet the nun, Agnes, Ambrosio notices she dropped a letter, picks it up, and reads it. We learn from the letter that she is pregnant and planning to escape from the convent. Ambrosio is incensed. Agnes, (Lorenzo's sister) - falls to her knees and begs Ambrosio for mercy when he tells her he is going to give the letter to the Prioress in order to place Agnes back on the righteous path. Was this the right thing to do? Do you believe this to be his true intention? Or is it possible that he is, in essence looking down his nose at her because he feels he is free of sin?
5) We also met Rosario, an initiate, who relays to Ambrosio the tale of his sister, Matilda. It's a sad tale of unrequited love with a "married man." In the end, Rosario confesses that he is actually Matilda who is in love with Ambrosio. This confession, and her ripping open her clothing in order to plunge a dagger into her heart, stirs many emotions previously unknown to Abrosio. Do you think these emotions are new to him? Or has Ambrosio simply not recognized and not dealt with them?
6) Ambrosio is bitten by a snake while picking a flower for Matilda, the doctor declares he will be dead in three days. Matilda nurses him back to health and then falls ill herself. She sucked the poison out of his hand thereby poisoning herself in the process. Ambrosio's last defenses are washed away with awe that this woman would sacrifice her life for his. Matilda explains that this last trial has instilled in her a more earthly desire for him and that she must "enjoy" him before she dies. Do you think this will be the beginning of Ambrrosio's downfall?