What are we reading? 12 June 2023

[Gpfr]

scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "(I) got annoyed by the character of Wyndham in the second."

Which aspect?

As the series progresses, you get two things: an insight into some of the more shameful events brought about..."

I disliked him more and more as the book went on. Not quite sure why. His opium addiction for one thing irritated me.

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Working class Catholic and Protestants shared so much in common but the controlling politicians were keen to make sure they didnt have a common cause and fed division by religion, rath..."

i think the change by the time the industrial revolution hit Ulster(1830-) was that the communities had been rattled by various stages of emigration, protestant and catholic, leaving a much less diverse, mostly quite poor population, now funnelled into the boomtown or city of Belfast and living a different life to the 1600-1830 era

1600-1830 had seen a quite deep hostility based on feelings of protestant superiority but by the 1830-1930 period, both communities were facing hard times, hence working together could have improved their lot against the minority gentry.

I have read a lot about the settlement of Ulster and it is fascinating, especially the story of Co Fermanagh settlement. Its protestant minority is majority Chuch of Ireland(nowhere else in Ulster is the case) and its settlers were border bandit clans from Scots Borders.Over the centuries they changed religion from presbyterian to Church of Ireland, its another twist of people and sect within the settler world. They were good fighters and having them located on the fringe or frontier of catholic ireland, may have been deliberate. A common Scots Borders surname is Graham and i have that name on my great grandfathers maternal side, havent explored it much yet

It seems economically that the Church of Ireland Protestants are the poorest communities in the east and in Belfast and other cities, i must find out if this was the case throughout the last 4 centuries, certainly among the Presbyterians there were many lowland scots who possibly formed a middle class on that side of the protestant divide.

[Robert]

When young leftists argued to Dr. O'Brien that the religion issue in Ulster was a red herring, he replied that it was a red herring about the size of a whale.

[[deleted user]]

The Age of Decadence: A History of Britain 1880-1914 – Simon Heffer

I’m enjoying this history a lot. He does it in an unusual way. After an overview introducing themes, he proceeds by way of separate episodes considered in real detail, with the idea that these serve to illuminate the general scene – the efforts it took for Gladstone to pass the 1884 Act giving rural districts the same franchise as urban districts in the teeth of opposition from Salisbury in the Lords, the new immorality of the upper classes revealed in the Dilke affair, the desolation of agriculture in Essex, the menace to the landed interest of the death duties introduced by Harcourt, the Tranby Croft affair exposing the completely illegal gambling led by the Prince of Wales (a juvenile delinquent in the view of the Queen), and that is just in the chapter on The Decline of the Pallisers. They’re like stepping stones to guide us across the flood of events. As a former journalist, Heffer knows how to keep the tone lively. On to The Rise of the Pooters. Will I have to take a break and put myself into contortions of laughter with that wonderful book?

[CCCubbon]

Gpfr wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "(I) got annoyed by the character of Wyndham in the second."

Which aspect?

As the series progresses, you get two things: an insight into some of the more shameful ..."

Me too

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: "His opium addiction for one thing irritated me..."

He does go for a successful cure in one of the stories...

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "by the 1830-1930 period, both communities were facing hard times, hence working together could have improved their lot against the minority gentry..."

My knowledge of 'older' Irish history is patchy to say the least... thanks for that. It's worth remembering that early on, support for Irish independence was considerable among some of the well-off Protestants:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest....

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: "I'm not sure whether to recommend it to you— it's true there is quite a lot about houses and clothes. The Vaseem Khan books are perhaps a safer bet."

Thanks. Probably the safest thing to do is to download samples onto the kindle - I've saved some money by doing that, as if I don't like the sample I don't buy the book.

[CCCubbon]

For some light bedtime reading I have picked up another one by Frances Brody . This one is set in 1928 and there is a short reference to the bill to give women the vote.
It says that men opposed this because there were three million more women than men in the country so they thought women would have too much power.

The Equal Franchise Act of 1928 gave women over the age of 21 the right to vote regardless of qualification. I read that this added five million women but couldn’t find the exact figures.
This has come up before in these books - the surplus of women due to the deaths in WW1 and the deaths due th Spanish Flu changing the dynamics of the population. Did the dynamics change after WW2?
Don’t know. Suspect they must have done.
Now they are changing again in a different way with the decline in the fertility rate and too many old people.

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "by the 1830-1930 period, both communities were facing hard times, hence working together could have improved their lot against the minority gentry..."

My knowledge of 'older' Irish hi..."

yes, protestants were always a part of the uprisings and organisations, with a few Protestant martyr's as well. it seemed to changed around WW1, although Roger Casement, the famous traitor, was part of the movement in WW1, raised Anglo-Irish Protestant

I think the establishment of the GAA and a more aggresive "Hibernian Catholic" outlook by the nationalists probably alienated the protestants by the 1890s, though on the other hand, protestant leadership in earlier uprisings and displays of dissent could have been due to their priveleged position in society

[AB76]

The First Man is an utter joy to read, harder and more realist than i expected but entirely different to the existentialist earlier novels he wrote, suggesting a range that was cut short by his death in 1960.

I had expected more of a childs view of growing up, a genre i am lukewarm on, thankfully this is more the adult and the child, looking back on life between 1913 and 1938 in Algiers. There is no doubt it is the life of Camus being re-cast as the narrator "Jacques", in some ways it could be auto-fiction

The section i just read concerns the passing of "Jacques" into the lycee, leaving behind the working class elementary school and the world of the poor. Camus describes the fear in the childs eyes as he realises that the closed world of the poor will now be left behind.

I was aware that Camus came from a background of poverty, but not that is three generations of poverty and illiteracy, he praises highly his elementay school teacher for giving him a chance to escape the fate of his other family members

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "Camus describes the fear in the childs eyes as he realises that the closed world of the poor will now be left behind.

I was aware that Camus came from a background of poverty, but not that is three generations of poverty and illiteracy, he praises highly his elementary school teacher for giving him a chance to escape the fate of his other family members."

Interesting - I knew he was from a poor background but either didn't know or had forgotten about the illiteracy.

The problem of 'no longer belonging' to your roots has been written about by other authors. My wife came from a working class background, and felt this to some extent - though as she came from a village where rich and poor mingled from necessity, it wasn't quite the same as the experience of the urban poor.

[scarletnoir]

A note on translation - I am currently reading and enjoying Antonio Tabucchi's demanding short story collection translated by Frances Frenaye.

In general the translation feels very good, but as an occasional pedant I could not help but be offended by a repeated error referring to a 'tie' between the football teams Sporting Lisbon and Real Madrid. I guess Frenaye is American (or has learnt US English) - no football fan (what is called 'soccer' over there!) would call it a 'tie' - it's a 'draw', or a 'drawn game'.

So there!

[Tam]

I have found the bit of paper that I wrote down the Matt Haig recommended book on. It was 'The Midnight Library'. Does anyone remember who recommended it? By a stroke of luck I was in the local library yesterday and they had a copy. I also found a novel that might be interesting 'The Cartographers' by Peng Shepherd. I'm a great lover of old maps. Its a mystery book of sorts, starring what gets put on, or left out of, maps, and why. "Some places you won't find on any maps. Others, are only on maps"...https://i.postimg.cc/3wxfRNNK/Carta-M...

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Camus describes the fear in the childs eyes as he realises that the closed world of the poor will now be left behind.

I was aware that Camus came from a background of poverty, but not..."

the lack of stimulation he describes in his family interactions, through the fictional "jacques" must have been terrible for an intelligent working class kid. he lived with his strict illiterate grandmother, his half deaf illiterate mother who barely said a word, his disabled Uncle and his brother. It seems to have been a strict, loving but silent world indoors.

The teacher figure, a key part of the novel, is the weakest character in the novel for me oddly, i feel Camus hasnt quite got him fully rounded, though this is not a big issue as i know the real life Monsieur Bernard got Camus into the lycee and away from poverty and illiteracy.

the lack of religion is interesting too,"Jacques" notes he barely heard god mentioned and that while the pieds-noirs were majority Catholic, he describes its a "civic catholocism", public identity but in private, religious observation and faith was quite commonly absent. This sounds like a reverse of laicite, where private faith is the norm

[AB76]

new(2022) series from Dalkey, not much that attracts my attention apart from Sarraute but may be of interest here:

https://dalkeyarchive.store/collectio...

[AB76]

My background reading about French Algeria keeps uncovering things i thought i already had covered but suprised me

One was the rigging of the Assembly elections from 1948 to 1954, to ensure a pro-french govt majority and to stop the widespread popularity of the Arab political parties. Its shocking that barely 3 years since the end of the Vichy madness, that french politicians(including the Governor, a future French PM), could do things like this.

The second one is that Jacques Soustelle, De Gaulle's man in Algiers(Governor of Algeria for a year)), an academic who wrote many books on Mexican first people culture and a rare protestant in the french system, supported the OAS(terror group against Algerian independence), after falling out with De Gaulle. The OAS was a violent, reckless mob and its shocking that Soustelle threw his lot in with them, especially as he had no links to Algeria beyond is professional work for the government of France

[Robert]

CCCubbon wrote: "For some light bedtime reading I have picked up another one by Frances Brody . This one is set in 1928 and there is a short reference to the bill to give women the vote.
It says that men opposed t..."

In Britain, the granting of the vote to women came in two stages. The first bill enfranchised older women. The second, in the late 1920s, enfranchised younger women (it was called "the flapper vote").

It was said that until they were allowed the vote, women were "subjects but not citizens."

[Bill]

O sacred hunger of ambitious mindes,
And impotent desire of men to raine,
Whom neither dread of God, that deuils bindes,
Nor lawes of men, that common weales containe,
Nor bands of nature, that wilde beastes restraine,
Can keepe from outrage, and from doing wrong,
Where they may hope a kingdome to obtaine.
No faith so firme, no trust can be so strong,
No loue so lasting then, that may enduren long.

Book 5 of The Faerie Queene was the most engaging one so far – it’s pretty much non-stop action with the allegorical aspects present but, for the most part, unobtrusive.

The thematic virtue is Justice, embodied by the knight Artegall. He was introduced in Book 3 as Britomart’s future husband and ancestor of the Tudors, and was featured in Book 4 as well. Having been acquainted with him as a character, he seems less overshadowed by his symbolic role than the other characters did, at least on their first introductions.

Artegall is accompanied by a man made of iron, Talus, who seems to embody justice without mercy – he flails at the unjust with an iron scourge, even unto their deaths unless they can flee or Artegall, who tempers justice with mercy when he sees fit, calls a halt to his punishments.

The notes tell me that Aretgall’s adventures represent various aspects of contemporary Elizabethan history: war with Spain in the Low Countries, the trial of Mary, Queen of Scots, and the attempted “taming” of Ireland. Except for the trial, I might not necessarily made the historic connections without the annotator’s nudge. The stand-in for Mary is Duessa, the witch from Books 1 and 4, who has attempted to usurp the throne of Mercilla, “a mayden Queene of high renowne”.

Prince Arthur and Britomart also make appearances here with battles of their own, the latter fighting with an Amazon warrior to free Artegall from a Hercules-and-Omphale-type bondage.

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "My background reading about French Algeria keeps uncovering things i thought i already had covered but suprised me

One was the rigging of the Assembly elections from 1948 to 1954, to ensure a pro-..."

Soustelle's Daily Life of the Aztecs is worth reading.

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "My background reading about French Algeria keeps uncovering things i thought i already had covered but suprised me

One was the rigging of the Assembly elections from 1948 to 1954, to ..."

thanks for that Robert, didnt expect anyone to have read it in here, did you read it in French or are there some good translations?

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "O sacred hunger of ambitious mindes,
And impotent desire of men to raine,
Whom neither dread of God, that deuils bindes,
Nor lawes of men, that common weales containe,
Nor bands of nature, that..."

as i dislike poetry, is there a prose adaption of this anywhere? i know the greek classics have alternate prose/poetry versions. i guess it would need a huge academic input to create a prose Fairie Queene

despite a dislike of poetry, i must re-read some Milton sometime

[Gpfr]

AB76 wrote: "as i dislike poetry, is there a prose adaption of (The Faerie Queene) anywhere? ..."

THE ILLUSTRATED FAERIE QUEENE: A Modern Prose Adaptation By Douglas Hill
No idea if it's any good.

[Gpfr]

Spurred on by the re-run of November 2021's anti-Apeirogon posts , I have at last taken it off my virtual TBR pile and started reading it.
So far it's living up to my expectations.

[AB76]

Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "as i dislike poetry, is there a prose adaption of (The Faerie Queene) anywhere? ..."

THE ILLUSTRATED FAERIE QUEENE: A Modern Prose Adaptation By Douglas Hill
No idea if it's any good."

will have a look..thanks!

[Gpfr]

I read the 3rd of Sujata Massey's 1920's Bombay Perveen Mistry series, The Bombay Prince and enjoyed it as I did the first. The Prince of Wales is on a state visit and feelings run high.
Haven't read the 2nd yet as it's too expensive for the moment.

Now I'm re-visiting Sarah Dunant's Hannah Wolfe crime series. The first is Birthmarks (not found in Goodreads). Wolfe is a private investigator. These were written in the 90's, before Dunant started writing historical fiction and had great success with The Birth of Venus.

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: "Spurred on by the re-run of November 2021's anti-Apeirogon posts , I have at last taken it off my virtual TBR pile and started reading it.
So far it's living up to my expectations."

Good or bad... expectations?

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: " I read the 3rd of Sujata Massey's 1920's Bombay Perveen Mistry series, The Bombay Prince and enjoyed it as I did the first. The Prince of Wales is on a state visit and feelings run high.
Haven't read the 2nd yet as it's too expensive for the moment."

Thanks for that - I checked it out and found that the kindle edition was available at 79p, so I bought it - even if it doesn't grab me, it won't be a disaster at that price!

I know that the visit of the Prince of Wales is covered somewhere in the Wyndham and Bannerjee series, but I'm not sure which one... I know you have fallen out of love with that series and I'm certainly not one to say anyone 'ought' to read such and such a book. I'll just say that Wyndham gets treated for his addiction in book 4, and (I'm guessing here) I get the feeling that part of what the author is trying to show is the passage of power from the British to the Indians, by personalising that in a gradual shift in power from Wyndham to Bannerjee.

[Gpfr]

scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Spurred on by the re-run of November 2021's anti-Apeirogon posts , I have at last taken it off my virtual TBR pile and started reading it.
So far it's living up to my expectations"

Good or bad... expectations?..."

Good 😉

[Bill]

Gpfr wrote: "THE ILLUSTRATED FAERIE QUEENE: A Modern Prose Adaptation By Douglas Hill
No idea if it's any good."

Hmmm ... I see that Goodreads folds this in with every other edition of The Faerie Queene. My Penguin edition is 1,055 pp not counting the endnotes. The "Illustrated" edition is 192 pp. Even considering the condensation that prose would offer over poetry, I suspect that the adaptation may have left out one or two things.

I see on Amazon that the cover illustration is a manuscript illumination from 15th century Italy. It's a popular image to use on the cover of books and recordings of Mediaeval music, probably because of the presence of a number of different types of musician, but not one that would have come to mind as applying to Spenser's poem (the only section so far that might suggest it is the first canto of Book 3).


Addendum: I note that, as a "product related to this item", Amazon also offers Dante’s Inferno for Kids and Curious Parents.

[Tam]

Bill wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "THE ILLUSTRATED FAERIE QUEENE: A Modern Prose Adaptation By Douglas Hill
No idea if it's any good."

Hmmm ... I see that Goodreads folds this in with every other edition of [book:The F..."

Ms. ''De Sphaera'' fol.11r The Fountain of Youth
Location: Modena, Estense Gallery and Museum

its title is 'Fountain of Youth', so maybe that has a link to 'The Faerie Queen'? I don't know the Faerie queen story, but if it is from the same medieval text as 'De Sphaera Mundi', then that is on the basic elements of astronomy. There is an association, mythological, and biblical, with the trumpet being the means to herald in 'Good news' and also 'Armageddon'. I guess you take your pick!

[Bill]

Tam wrote: "its title is 'Fountain of Youth', so maybe that has a link to 'The Faerie Queen'? I don't know the Faerie queen story, but if it is from the same medieval text as 'De Sphaera Mundi', then that is on the basic elements of astronomy."

I still have Book 6 to go, but so far no fountain of youth - Spenser tends to present the appearance of youth in aged characters as the workings of witchcraft.

As far as astrology, he does occasionally make reference to the astrological constellations, mainly, as I recall, as a source of metaphors. In one passage he cites the shifting of the signs from the seasons with which they were originally associated (due to precession) as a piece of evidence testifying to the general degeneration of the world as the Golden Age grows more distant in time.

[Gpfr]

Bill wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "THE ILLUSTRATED FAERIE QUEENE: A Modern Prose Adaptation By Douglas Hill

My Penguin edition is 1,055 pp not counting the endnotes. The "Illustrated" edition is 192 pp...."

Mmm, good point. In my edition of Spenser's Poetical Works, The Faerie Queene is 400 pp. Still a long way off 192 ...

[Bill]

Gpfr wrote: "Mmm, good point. In my edition of Spenser's Poetical Works, The Faerie Queene is 400 pp. Still a long way off 192 ..."

Wow, 400 pp seems pretty packed. Is it one of those editions that prints the works in double columns?

[AB76]

Travels by Paul Bowles is a gem, i'm barely a third of way through this collection of almost all his travel writing and its remarkable how skilled he is at delivering high standards on every piece so far

Collections like this can be uneven, especially over 43 year period but his calm , clear, intelligent writing is a delight, whether he is covering North Africa(Tangiers especially), Southern India, Sri Lanka or other locations.

i travel less than i used too, covid stopped the routine rather but i dont miss it as i can travel in my mind and good travel writers are not always easy to find nowadays. I have always liked Norman Lewis, Paul Theroux, VS Naipaul and Eric Newby, less so Colin Thubron but Bowles is a step above them all, though it is important to clarify these are travel pieces, not books on travel collected together

His description of Tangiers as the Morroccan state reclaims it, observes the sad reality of post-colonial mistakes, where this multi-cultural, liberal city decends into the petty codes of religious islam. Bowles remarks that the nightlife the city was famous for was gone by 1957, the puritan state and its eyes and ears reducing it to a shadow of its former self.

[Gpfr]

Bill wrote: "Gpfr wrote: " In my edition of Spenser's Poetical Works, The Faerie Queene is 400 pp..."

Wow, 400 pp seems pretty packed. Is it one of those editions that prints the works in double columns?..."

Yes, it is.

[Bill]

AB76 wrote: "His description of Tangiers as the Morroccan state reclaims it, observes the sad reality of post-colonial mistakes, where this multi-cultural, liberal city decends into the petty codes of religious islam. Bowles remarks that the nightlife the city was famous for was gone by 1957, the puritan state and its eyes and ears reducing it to a shadow of its former self"

Bowles' 1949 composition for two pianos, Night Waltz, evokes the sounds of that nightlife as heard from a distance.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "His description of Tangiers as the Morroccan state reclaims it, observes the sad reality of post-colonial mistakes, where this multi-cultural, liberal city decends into the petty codes..."

...will google Night Waltz now thanks bill!

i like it!
Am listening to his "Sonata for Two Pianos" now from 1947, from the Naxos "Complete Piano Works"(2014)

my favourite piano composer is Enrique Granados by the way, Spanish composer