Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Conrad, Nostromo
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Week 1 — Part 1, Chapters 1-5
I don't think I have a clear impression of the characters yet. The first five chapters definitely indicated that this will be a novel rich with metaphor, symbolism and allusion (both literary and historical). The "Republic" seems to be controlled by the English, who have the typical colonialist attitude toward the locals. Not sure what to think of Nostromo himself yet.Based on the references to Garibaldi (not to mention the timing in Latin America), I'm guessing independence and what comes after it is an overt theme. So far there's been references to reds (revolutionaries) and whites (monarchists) and there's an early riot, so revolution is clearly on the mind, too.
The naming of the ships after Roman (not Greek, since "Juno" instead of "Hera") seems like a potential allusion to the novel's events being mythological, or maybe modeled after Roman mythology.
Nostromo appears as a hero, literally a man on horseback, revolver blazing. I'm looking forward to hearing more of him.
This might not matter since the place is fictitious but is this story taking place after the death of Garibaldi? Again sorry, I am just trying to get a sense of the setting.
Mike wrote: "This might not matter since the place is fictitious but is this story taking place after the death of Garibaldi? Again sorry, I am just trying to get a sense of the setting."I would say yes. Old Viola is described as joining Garibaldi in Montevideo (Uruguay) during the 1841-42 civil war "when quite a youth":
"When quite a youth he had deserted from a ship trading to La Plata, to enlist in the navy of Montevideo, then under the command of Garibaldi.
It goes on to say that he stayed with him until Aspromonte, which was in 1862:
"He had never parted from the chief of his choice—the fiery apostle of independence—keeping by his side in America and in Italy till after the fatal day of Aspromonte,
It seems like he would have been middle age then. Garibaldi died in 1882, so my guess is that "Old Viola" is probably at least 60.
My guess for setting is fictional country (from what I've read similar to Colombia) somewhere between 1882 and 1904 when the novel was first published. This also appears to be the time period of Colombian civil wars.
If "Sulaco" might be translated "his, her, their, or your lake" and the characters are a group of transplants, expats, transients, and opportunist natives might there be a theme of home and who and why the "lake" might be theirs?
Aiden wrote: "The naming of the ships after Roman (not Greek, since "Juno" instead of "Hera") seems like a potential allusion to the novel's events being mythological, or maybe modeled after Roman mythology...."I have the feeling the names are Roman because they were a lot more popular than Greek ones. Nobody knew who "Hera" was, Juno was the popular name for the white-armed goddess.
Samuel Butler was also irritated by the fact that his publisher forced him to use Roman names for his Illiad translation (1898)
Roger wrote: "Nostromo appears as a hero, literally a man on horseback, revolver blazing. I'm looking forward to hearing more of him."If this is supposed to be a sort of Western, it's definitely not a fast-paced one. After 5 chapters we're still at the opening credits.
This is my first reading of Nostromo, and I'm finding the first five chapters a little confusing. It is choke full of information peppered with a lot of seemingly irrelevant digressions. I suspect all those digressions will be relevant later on, but for right now, I'm trying to make sense of it. As an example: The anecdote in the beginning of the novel about three men who disappeared after setting off to look for gold. It's probably relevant. Otherwise, why include it?
Also, why Roman and not Greek names? Roman names may be more popular than Greek ones, as Emil suggested. But I have a nagging feeling there is more to it than that--possibly something to do with the difference between the Greek and Roman empires and/or Greek and Roman mythology.
I have more questions than answers and a lot of information to juggle. Hopefully, it will all fall into place as we proceed.
Tamara wrote: "This is my first reading of Nostromo, and I'm finding the first five chapters a little confusing. It is choke full of information peppered with a lot of seemingly irrelevant digressions."I suspect you're right that they are meaningful in the end. It does seem like there's been a lot of exposition and background versus action. It reminds me a little of Les Miserables. I've learned more about Garibaldi in five chapters than the actual characters.
Aiden wrote: "I don't think I have a clear impression of the characters yet. The first five chapters definitely indicated that this will be a novel rich with metaphor, symbolism and allusion (both literary and h..."Definitely a novel with layers and allusions! I’m curious too about how the references to Garibaldi and independence will tie into the story.
Roger wrote: "Nostromo appears as a hero, literally a man on horseback, revolver blazing. I'm looking forward to hearing more of him."I find the character of Nostromo intriguing, but I don’t know if Signora Teresa would agree he is a hero. He certainly seems to be the man of the hour when there’s a tough job to be done.
My edition has a note that “Nostromo” is the Italian for “boatswain” or “bosun,” so it seems to be his title or nickname rather than his proper name.
Suzann wrote: "If "Sulaco" might be translated "his, her, their, or your lake" and the characters are a group of transplants, expats, transients, and opportunist natives might there be a theme of home and who and..."The book specifically identifies groups of “transplants” as you describe, especially Italians and English. How do they fit in to this “Republic”? The English seem to play a large role in commercial interests (the shipping and railroad companies) and also to have a good bit of government influence. The Italian presence seems almost accidental for the Violas and Nostromo, but perhaps it reflects the political turmoil back in the old country.
The intro to my edition suggests the "Nostromo" comes from the Italian "nostro uomo," "our man."
Susan wrote: "The book specifically identifies groups of “transplants” as you describe, especially Italians and English. How do they fit in to this “Republic”?"How do Europeans ever fit in to South American countries? They are the colonialists and other exploiters of the natives and their land. I know there is opinion in there, but I'm pretty sure it's how Conrad would have seen them, too. He was ahead of his time in anti-colonialist thinking. Though I guess the Italian role might be mixed.
I think Conrad had both meanings in mind. "Nostromo" has a positive connotation in spanish and other romance languages. It implies loyalty - nostro/nuestro/nostru/notre/nosso = our)
Susanna wrote: "Perhaps the names are Roman because most of the transplants are from Italy."That makes sense. Good point. Thank you.
Mike wrote: "This might not matter since the place is fictitious but is this story taking place after the death of Garibaldi? Again sorry, I am just trying to get a sense of the setting."As Aiden points out above, the information given about Giorgio Viola’s service under Garibaldi supports a date for the story after Garibaldi’s death in 1882.
Another hint is a reference to Garibaldi as immortal, which suggests that he’s died. During the riot scene, Giorgio thinks, looking at Garibaldi’s portrait, “An immortal hero! This was your Liberty; it gave you not only life, but immortality as well!”
Emil wrote: "If this is supposed to be a sort of Western, it's definitely not a fast-paced one. After 5 chapters we're still at the opening credits. ."Lol. Conrad is definitely laying the scene in these chapters, and although there has been some action — a deposed dictator hightailing out of town, a family barricading themselves in their hotel for safety, and an angry mob subdued by Nostromo and his men — I agree there’s a sense of more background to come. For one thing, what about The Silver of the Mine” referred to in the title to Part 1?
Tamara wrote: " It is choke full of information peppered with a lot of seemingly irrelevant digressions. I suspect all those digressions will be relevant later on, but for right now, I'm trying to make sense of it. As an example: The anecdote in the beginning of the novel about three men who disappeared after setting off to look for gold. It's probably relevant. Otherwise, why include it?.."
I wonder if that anecdote about a forlorn search for treasure connects with the rumor of money buried in the floor of Viola’s hotel?
”…whether it was true or not, it was generally believed in the town that the Garibaldino had some money buried under the clay floor of the kitchen.”.
The story so far suggests that’s false : “This man, whom the lowest class suspected of having a buried hoard in his kitchen, had all his life despised money.”. He may turn out to be an exception to the rule.
Roger wrote: "The intro to my edition suggests the "Nostromo" comes from the Italian "nostro uomo," "our man.""That might be. I’m not an Italian scholar, but if you type “Nostromo” into Google translate, it does come back with “boatswain.” My edition notes that the word “puns on ‘nostro uomo’ (our man).”
Aiden wrote: "How do Europeans ever fit in to South American countries? They are the colonialists and other exploiters of the natives and their land. I know there is opinion in there, but I'm pretty sure it's how Conrad would have seen them, too. He was ahead of his time in anti-colonialist thinking. Though I guess the Italian role might be mixed. My impression is there’s some ambiguity in the picture Conrad is painting. The original colonizers would have been Spanish. Giorgio Viola came to South America initially to fight for Uruguayan independence, although of course he may be an exception. And the English are highly regarded by Viola, starting in Uruguay and continuing in Italy: “And everywhere he had seen Englishmen in the front rank of the army of freedom.” . But there’s also English economic activity in Costaguana with the steamship and railway companies that is doubtless intended to make a profit for folks back home. I guess the picture will develop as the story unfolds.
As several have said there's a whole lot of exposition and digressions. What I really am missing so far is the lyricism that I associate with Conrad - there's gorgeous passages in all four others of his that I've read: Typhoon, The Secret Agent, Lord Jim, and Heart of Darkness. By contrast, the style here feels factual and not as evocative.Conrad painstakingly sets the scene, both geographically and culturally.
As far as the digression with the lost gold seekers, I wonder if part of the point is establishing the local mindset and superstitions? Hard to say since I don't know what comes next. I liked the mythology with the two white men whose ghosts are supposed to haunt the island eternally because they were not innocent of heart like the mule and had no one to intercede for them in prayer as the "indian" did.
Greg wrote: "I liked the mythology with the two white men whose ghosts are supposed to haunt the island"I found the ghost story and its setting intriguing as well. There is a notable juxtaposition between Punta Mala and the peninsula of Azuera, where the ghost story unfolds, which could be seen as representing contrasting qualities or a duality. Azuera is described as wild, chaotic, rocky, barren, and seemingly cursed, yet it also holds hidden riches.
The idea, or superstition, that poverty is seen as a preferable state compared to wealth and perceived evils that accompany it is a keen insight.
The poor, associating by an obscure instinct of consolation the ideas of evil and wealth, will tell you that it [Azuera] is deadly because of its forbidden treasures.Considering the composition of the ill-fated party, consisting of foreigners and a native, described as good-for-nothing, as well as the inclusion of the donkey and their ultimate fate, I wonder if there are any symbolic and metaphoric foreshadowing in it that will eventually reveal itself.
David wrote: "There is a notable juxtaposition between Punta Mala and the peninsula of Azuera, where the ghost story unfolds, which could be seen as representing contrasting qualities or a duality. Azuera is described as wild, chaotic, rocky, barren, and seemingly cursed, yet it also holds hidden riches."It bears pointing out that "Punta Mala" literally means "Bad Point" or "Bad Tip." The way you described the juxtaposition brought to mind Scylla and Charybdis, the Greco-Roman doorway to the underworld, so to speak.
I'm not sure if it connects, but since there's obviously ambiguity intended in the story, it seemed important what the place names actually mean and when I saw "Mala", I knew bad. Azuera just translates to the color azure.
So our story takes place at Bad Point and Azure.
Another name that jumped out at me was Costaguana, because guana sounds like a female version of guano. So the name is basically "Bat Crap Coast".
Aiden wrote: "Azuera just translates to the color azure..."The color azure is associated with blue skies and ocean. It is supposed to generate feelings of peace, serenity, tranquility. I'm not sure how that fits with the description we get of Azuera.
Aiden wrote: "The way you described the juxtaposition brought to mind Scylla and Charybdis"I like this reference. Perhaps, like Odysseus, the foreigners must pass between them to get home?
Tamara wrote: "[Azure]. . .is supposed to generate feelings of peace, serenity, tranquility. I'm not sure how that fits with the description we get of Azuera."
Maybe this is an indicator that things are not what they seem, or named after?
I am excited to get into "Nostromo." I love the opening geological description of the scrappy town and its natural setting, savage rocks and ravines, and misty distances. Then the excitement of the early revolution with the ex-dictator chased to the end of the jetty, the riot, and Nostromo with pistols blazing.The opening is appropriately confusing until we get the setup, some characters, climate, power centers, and history. Old Viola barricaded in the hotel with his family. I hear the score from "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." with that flute or whistle leitmotif.
I'll play that while I'm reading. Great book choice. I am psyched for this reading.
Sam wrote: "Then the excitement of the early revolution with the ex-dictator chased to the end of the jetty, the riot, and Nostromo with pistols blazing."I am curious about the rescue of Dictator Senor Ribiera by foreign parties, particularly Captain Mitchel as an OSN representative who was called upon by someone to save him, while Nostromo happened to be in the right place at the right time. Why did they save Ribiera?
There seems to be more than mere human decency at work in this rescue mission. I am forced to consider that Senor Ribiera, may be a puppet dictator manipulated by foreign interests driven by greed and self-interest at the expense of his country's interests. And ask again, why did they save Ribiera? I sense a foundation for opposing interests.
David wrote: "There seems to be more than mere human decency at work in this rescue mission. I am forced to consider that Senor Ribiera, may be a puppet dictator manipulated by foreign interests driven by greed and self-interest at the expense of his country's interests. And ask again, why did they save Ribiera? I sense a foundation for opposing interests."Absolutely David, that was my suspicion as well. It seems doubtful that everything is working to the locals' benefit, and it also seems likely that the locals have pretty good reasons to be angry. There are a few oblique hints as to the mood of the populace; in one place it refers to an unpopular "severe recruitment law" for instance . . . but I'm thinking there is a lot more behind these events than appears on the surface. Yes, criminals later flooded in to take advantage, but something else created the volatile mood in the first place.
Given the history of that region, I suspect there may be more than one foreign country's interests competing in Costaguana. And for Conrad, they may have been closer to "current events" than for us 150 years later.
Greg wrote: "As several have said there's a whole lot of exposition and digressions. What I really am missing so far is the lyricism that I associate with Conrad - there's gorgeous passages in all four others o..."The passage that stood out to me was the description of the Golfo Placido with the clouds rolling out from the mountains especially at night. “Sky, land and sea disappear together out of the world when the Placido—as the saying is—goes to sleep under its black poncho. The few stars left below the seaward frown of the vault shine feebly as into the mouth of a black cavern. In the vastness your ship floats unseen under your feet, her sails flutter invisible above your head.” But there’s always a turn into ominous images of thunder-storms like pirate ships or statements that “you would be free to call the devil to your aid with impunity if even his malice were not defeated by such a blind darkness.”. Even nature seems to have a certain malignity, although it is so beautifully described..
David wrote: ". Considering the composition of the ill-fated party, consisting of foreigners and a native, described as good-for-nothing, as well as the inclusion of the donkey and their ultimate fate, I wonder if there are any symbolic and metaphoric foreshadowing in it that will eventually reveal itself..."Good question. So far, the message might be that treasure hunting in Azuera is particularly dangerous for gringos (although it’s not very rewarding for anyone involved), but I share your and Tamara’s suspicion that there’s more to be revealed.
Aiden wrote: " It bears pointing out that "Punta Mala" literally means "Bad Point" or "Bad Tip… Another name that jumped out at me was Costaguana, because guana sounds like a female version of guano. So the name is basically "Bat Crap Coast."It’s interesting that some characters’ and places’ names have a multiplicity of meanings. Nostromo is one example. Even the name of the country, Costaguana, has a duality to it with “palm tree coast” being perhaps the official translation (“costa” meaning “coast” and “guana” meaning “palm tree”), but with a definite connotation as you point out of “guano coast.” And guano is often exported commercially for fertilizer, so there’s an echo as well of economic exploitation/utilization of resources.
Tamara wrote: "The color azure is associated with blue skies and ocean. It is supposed to generate feelings of peace, serenity, tranquility. I'm not sure how that fits with the description we get of Azuera."I’m not sure either, unless it was named Azuera for its appearance as “what seems to be an isolated patch of blue mist floats lightly on the glare of the horizon.” If so, appearances have been very deceptive ;).
I’ve definitely got more questions than answers at this point. Here are a few of them. A number of characters seem to be identified by multiple names and titles, starting with Captain Mitchell and Señor Ribiera, and going on to Nostromo and even the country itself. Does the multiplicity of names/titles say something about their identities? Or perhaps the variety reflects changing times in Sulaco?
The novel is subtitled “A Tale of the Seaboard.” (“Seaboard” is defined as the coastline or a region bordering the sea”.). Is that just to tell us where the story takes place, or is there a deeper significance to this location near the sea but not on it?
I’m interested in how the story moves backwards in time, first to the mob scene and then back to the beginning of the building of the railroad. I guess it creates a sense of history, but it’s also disorienting, or at least I found it a bit confusing. I’m curious to see which direction in time the story goes next.
Sam wrote: "I am excited to get into "Nostromo.” I love the opening geological description of the scrappy town and its natural setting, savage rocks and ravines, and misty distances….The opening is appropriately confusing until we get the setup, some characters, climate, power centers, and history.
I’m excited to be reading “Nostromo”, too. “Appropriately confusing” is a good way to put it. The opening reminds me of approaching a new place from the water and then landing in a crowd of new faces and impressions. It does take awhile to sort them out!
Roger wrote: "The intro to my edition suggests the "Nostromo" comes from the Italian "nostro uomo," "our man.""The notes in my edition include comments by Cunninghame Graham (who wrote for the Saturday Review around 1903) in which he said: "Nostromo ( a damned bad name: the book ought to have been called Costaguana)....Conrad seems to have been run away with 'John Burns Nostromo, Esqr' [a popular working-class leader, M.P Battersea 1892-1918....who betrayed his responsibilities]"
Many potential factors in choosing a name!
David wrote: "Why did they save Ribiera?.....I am curious about the rescue of Dictator..."I thought the motivation was to support the leader they found most sympathetic and capable of creating the stability required for the independent operation of the mine.
Tamara wrote: "Aiden wrote: "Azuera just translates to the color azure..."The color azure is associated with blue skies and ocean. It is supposed to generate feelings of peace, serenity, tranquility. I'm not su..."
Irony? Golfo Pacifico by name and character also fits the allusion to peace, serenity, and tranquility while human intrigue, revolution, and chaos prevail on and around it.
Is this placid, passive natural setting a stage for a human epic? Nature doesn't seem to interfere, but benignly supports sweeps of human activity.
Suzann wrote: "David wrote: "Why did they save Ribiera?.....I am curious about the rescue of Dictator..."I thought the motivation was to support the leader they found most sympathetic and capable of creating th..."
I thought so too Suzann if you mean "sympathetic" in terms of sympathetic to their business interests, squeezing as much as they can out of the local workers, removing barriers and red tape, etc.
Though it doesn't seem that they picked well because the stability didn't happen.
Susan wrote: "The passage that stood out to me was the description of the Golfo Placido with the clouds rolling out from the mountains especially at night. “Sky, land and sea disappear together out of the world when the Placido—as the saying is—goes to sleep under its black poncho. The few stars "Even this passage doesn't strike me as quite the same level of lyricism that I'm accustomed to with Conrad, but maybe once the book gets off the ground, that will change. The other books of his that I've read were shorter for the most part and had shorter liftoffs.
It was suggested that Conrad was forward thinking in his anti-colonialism, which is true but complicated. He was himself a Pole who had suffered under Russian imperialism as a boy, but he was also broadly positive about the British role in the world, then at its imperial height. He was also himself a foreign transplant and my gut tells me he would have viewed individual Europeans in South and Central America as he saw himself, a man making an honest effort to improve his lot in a new country.
Suzann wrote: "... Irony? Golfo Pacifico by name and character also fits the allusion to peace, serenity, and tranquility while human intrigue, revolution, and chaos prevail on and around it. This seems like a good summary of the book so far.
I found the first chapter puzzling. I don’t think I’ve ever read a novel that starts in such an encyclopedic style. I can’t help but contrast the opening to Hardy’s The Return of the Native, also aiming to introduce a place ahead of its people, but in a highly poetic style.The first five chapters are generally puzzling to me because they read as pure background. I’m starting to wonder if one can write an entire novel as background (and at what point I would realize it’s not background, it’s the story).
Admittedly, I know Conrad mostly via Heart of Darkness and Lord Jim which probably unrealistically raises my expectations of narrative innovation.
As to the style, I’ve also found it less captivating and lovely than Conrad’s previous writing. FR Leavis was famously critical of Conrad’s style in Lord Jim and especially Heart of Darkness. He also thought Nostromo was Conrad’s masterpiece. Based on the first five chapters, I’ve come to expect greater restraint with his language. That said, the novel’s entire world already appears in great imaginative richness.
Jacob wrote: "Admittedly, I know Conrad mostly via Heart of Darkness and Lord Jim which probably unrealistically raises my expectations of narrative innovation.."I'm struggling with that too, and it doesn't help that I've been hearing for years that Nostromo was his masterpiece and that only raised my expectations higher.
But I suppose we're only five chapters in. A lot can change. I'm eager to start the next installment tomorrow.
I for one am finding the book engaging and fascinating--the intriguing personalities, romantic setting, isolation, tortured history, mix of Spanish, English, native, and Italian populations. Something is clearly brewing!
David wrote: "There seems to be more than mere human decency at work in this rescue mission. I am forced to consider that Senor Ribiera, may be a puppet dictator manipulated by foreign interests driven by greed and self-interest at the expense of his country's interests. And ask again, why did they save Ribiera? I sense a foundation for opposing interests."As far as I can see, we’re not given a reason for the rescue, which involves getting the fleeing Señor Ribiera safely out of Sulaco and out of the country. The OSN steamship company that rescues him is going to continue doing business in the country with the new regime. Is it human kindness? Playing both sides to advance their own interests? Maybe we’ll find out later.
The description that sticks in my mind about the OSN is “And as they seldom failed to account for the smallest package, rarely lost a bullock, and had never drowned a single passenger, the name of the OSN stood very high for trustworthiness. People declared that under the Company’s care their lives and property were safer on the water than in their own houses on shore.”. Maybe this is complimentary to the OSN, but what does it say about daily life in Sulaco?
Classics and the Western Canon
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Nostromo (other topics)Typhoon (other topics)
The Secret Agent (other topics)
Lord Jim (other topics)
Heart of Darkness (other topics)
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We meet the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company (O.S.N.) and its superintendent for Costaguana, Captain Joseph Mitchell aka “Our excellent Señor Mitchell” aka “Fussy Joe.” We hear how on one occasion, Captain Mitchell and Nostromo, “a fellow in a thousand,” rescued a deposed dictator, Señor Ribiera, and some other officials from a mob. And we meet the Violas who keep a local hotel — Giorgio Viola, Signora Teresa, and their two daughters Linda and Giselle — as they barricade themselves in the hotel for what safety it offers on the day of the riot.
Conrad comments in these sections: “The political atmosphere of the Republic was generally stormy in these days.”. Just 18 months before the riot, the Excelentísimo Señor Ribiera, then Dictator of Costaguana, came to Sulaco along with General Montero to celebrate the beginning of the National Central Railroad project at the request of the English company backing the railroad. And on that occasion, we meet Mrs Gould, whose husband Charles is the administrator of the San Tome silver mine, “the biggest thing in Sulaco, and even in the whole Republic.” And once again, there’s Nostromo, this time escorting the English railroad surveyors on their journey over the mountains to Sulaco.
The epigraph of the novel sounds like a warning that rough weather lies ahead: “So foul a sky clears not without a storm.”
What are your first impressions of Sulaco and its characters?