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Oliver Twist
Oliver Twist - Group Read 5
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Oliver Twist: Chapters 9 - 17
Micheal, I completely forgot about Eastern State Penitentiary! I watched a documentary on it and it gave me absolute chills! 23 hours a day of solitary and not allowed to speak the other hour...
I also just caught that the dr who visits Oliver in chapter 12 has " a very large and loud- ticking gold watch". In the first chapter of Dombey and Son, the dr also has a loud watch, and of course we have Fagin's collection of watches earlier in this novel. It's rather interesting that these either useless (in Dickens opinion) or unsavory characters are the ones to have watches!
I found both a watch and a portrait in Little Dorrit ( I started reading it): Arthur's father staring at his son from his portrait hung on the wall (Ch 5) and a reminiscence of it in Ch 7. The best portraits do look at us (e.g. Greek Byzantine icons, La Gioconda, St ThérÚse de Lisieux) and seem to follow us wherever we are in the room. I don't wonder that Oliver is puzzled, even haunted by the portrait of a lady.
Arthur's father's watch is also mentioned several times in the first eight chapters.
Yes Jenny, Dickens seems to have a special relationship with watches... and portraits.
Bionic Jean wrote: In Victorian London child criminality was common, and there was much talk of criminal bosses who trained and ran gangs of young thieves and then fenced the goods the boys stole. . .Yet some later critics, such as G.K. Chesterton called Charles Dickens a âmythologistâ. Odd, since so much of his material was rooted in realism, and came out of his everyday life experiences."
Dickens a mythologist? This stopped me in my tracks, as at this point in Oliver Twist I would imagine most readers of the day would be in absolute shock at the realism of the portrayal of these child gangs. I suppose you could argue that the literary character of Oliver is "mythologized" in that he is front and center in this novel. But more to the point, to confront the fact of the horrible neglect and degradation these young "thieves" endured surely must have shaken the contemporary reader. Human nature allows us to create the "other" such as the homeless, and set them apart from us. We stop seeing them as people, just as the mob who chased Oliver really thought they were upholding morality and honesty by catching this "thief".
But Dickens must have shaken his readers out of their dispassionate observation of street urchins. The desperation of the young thieves and their obvious hunger and poverty is held under the spotlight by Dickens' realism. I can imagine the contemporary reader of Victorian England must have been quite discomfited by our "mythologized" Oliver.
Bionic Jean wrote: "And a little more ⊠A Real Life Artful Dodger?. . . the account of 13-year-old thief Samuel Holmes. He discovered a report written by the magistrate William Augustus Miles at the National Archives in Kew, South-West London. Significantly, it is dated 1836âjust a year before Charles Dickensâs serial began.
Can't be a coincidence! I can imagine John Forster sharing this news story with Dickens if Dickens did not read this story himself. I am assuming the story was in a newspaper Dickens had access to.
This "coincidence" gave me the shivers! Too close to the truth, in my opinion! Thank you for finding this, Jean.
How do I get my comment closer to the actual post? I hit "reply" under the post.And now I don't know how to move my comment back up in place. đ°
Lee G wrote: "How do I get my comment closer to the actual post? I hit "reply" under the post.And now I don't know how to move my comment back up in place. đ°"
You can't get your reply close to who posted it in GR, but when you hit "reply" you get that partial quote and the user name of the person you are responding to. IMO, this is one of the downsides.
DickenBack to his growth as a writer (sorry, not as much time on GR)--part of that was due to the fact that he wrote more, but the other part of course is that he was older, which gave him a different perspective, plus society and politics didn't stay stagnant.
But also, and I realize this is my science-side coming out, his brain literally changed. First off for men brain development until about 29 but details are off topic plus I'm rusty on this right now and he was younger than that during the 2 years he wrote this.
But secondly, the barrier between the two hemispheres thins after 40 (one of the theories about why most great philosophy is written after the age of 50 has to do with this change in brain structure. Since some people are naturally wired to read an understand philosophy from an early age I lean to this theory as being part of the reason.)
I haven't read all of his novels and can't comment on how that aspect of them changed off the top of my head because I can't recall any of his novels being philosophical per se, but I do think that his later novels were deeper than his early ones which had less to do with developing skills and more to do with aging. One can only speculate as to what might have happened if he hadn't died at 58.
Lee G wrote: "How do I get my comment closer to the actual post? I hit "reply" under the post.And now I don't know how to move my comment back up in place. đ°"
I don't think you can move your comment, Lee. The comments occur in the order in which they are posted. But because you hit reply, your comment is obviously tagged to the post you are commenting on.
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The only way anyone (including a mod) can place comments to (or in) order is to reserve a post, and then come back to edit it! You may have noticed I do this each day, otherwise I run the risk of getting interrupted part way through.
Another thing I always do if I use the reply fiction, is to edit it, putting the relevant bit there. Otherwise what comes up is the first bit of the post, which is rarely what you are replying to! In fact if it is an ongoing conversation, you may have a list of people viz "x says ... y say ... z says ... " before your post đ It's usually better to do your own.
There are some great points here, so I'll go back đ
Bionic Jean wrote: "Another thing I always do if I use the reply fiction, is to edit it, putting the relevant bit there..."Yes, plus if you are replying to someone else's reply you might not see any of the post you are actually replying to at all.
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Yes! - Well spotted Jenny. We've noticed in each group read that some motifs come up time (sorry for the pun!) and time again. Clocks and watches are one of his favourites, and signify that something important is happening - a crucial moment in time - so this is an early example. Other coded motifs are running water such as a stream, or the sea, which usually signifies something other-worldly, such as an upcoming death, or birds, either signifying freedom, or the opposite: being trapped.
We've picked up an early mention of a portrait, and know that it was to become another favourite motif of Charles Dickens, so it will be interesting to see of any of these others appear!
Claudia - "The best portraits do look at us" Nice observation! That's exactly what Oliver seems to feel đ
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Do you really think so Karin? You seem to give evidence both for and and against the dying brain theory. But apart from that, don't you think that his experience and work, and his mental abilities both have a part to play?
I find Charles Dickens thought deeply right from the time he first started to write, and kept the same social concerns too. What changed through age was his passion. In Oliver Twist, his authorial voice is far more intrusive, and he learned to control this, as Sam described in detail. But here at the age of 25, Charles Dickens is an angry, passionate young man, furiously working on several projects at a time, including this highly topical novel - and it shows. The pace of his life never did let up, in fact, but he learned to control what he revealed to the world, both in his personal life and in his fiction, and his writing skills are developing all the time.
Oliver Twist had such a hit and miss start, but is remarkable in that it works so well as a novel. In it, he introduced London's low lifes and criminals to a fashionable set, who had never encountered such before, even in fiction. They knew that these people lived almost on their doorstep, in Saffron Hill, but Charles Dickens paints a faithful and realistic portrait of them, and as Lee observes, "Dickens must have shaken his readers out of their dispassionate observation of street urchins".
It must have been truly shocking for most middle class readers. Charles Dickens was the only author at the time to do this. He thought that a realistic novel should encompass the whole of the social strata, and what better way to demonstrate the iniquity of the Poor Law Amendment Act - which was rapidly becoming increasingly unpopular as he wrote!
Taking your points about the aging brain on board, Karin yes, for sure there are physical changes, such as what you mention, plus it's harder to form new pathways, synapses etc., although the fact that the brain shrinks apparently has little effect as we hardly use any of it anyway.
I'm not sure we can extrapolate from general principles for an individual author, except to say that usually wisdom comes with age and experience. (I am a perfect example of am extremely "wise" person đ.) But I would still maintain that Charles Dickens's "later novels [being] deeper than his early ones" is largely due to increasing skill as a novelist - and sheer hard work! He did not have the benefit of very much formal education at all, compared with what is on offer today. But he felt the need for breadth in his work right from the start. I wonder how many journalists would be capable of writing Oliver Twist - alongside The Pickwick Papers, plus all the other ongoing writing projects, a mere few months after writing reports for a newspaper.
No, he curbed his frivolity up to a point, and controlled his invective, but the Charles Dickens we see here is still the Charles Dickens we see at the end of his life. The physical brain aged, but it does not show in his writing, unlike some other writer whose final novels are not so good, and who make one feel they might be losing their grip. Neither do I consider them to be more contemplative or philosophical. (See what you think when you read them). Charles Dickens always responded to his public, who had asked him to make a simpler story line, and this is what he did.
I too would have loved to see what he would write after 58, and suspect it might have even more mystery elements, but if he had lived longer he would be a different person, and would have written different novels: one who did not live so passionately, and burn himself out. He was never one for cool thinking, even when older.
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Human nature allows us to create the "other" such as the homeless, and set them apart from us. ..."
I love all these observations Lee, and the "mythologised" Oliver is certainly not a theory I adhere to; I just put it out there đ
You see, some readers and critics cannot believe in Oliver as a "real" boy because he is too perfect, and speaks too nicely. Where did he get such good manners from, or his moral code? Why doesn't he speak with the uncouth phrases used by other London street children (they ask).
For me, this is irrelevant, as I believe in Oliver as I am reading it. Another example is the epistolary novel, where the writers' thoughts come out in perfect order, and everyone speaks in perfect sentences, whereas of course in real life we don't! We just accept it as a literary convention.
Similarly with coincidences, which Charles Dickens is very fond of. We may have had one already and we certainly have one in the next chapter. This is a part of the idiom of story-telling in the 19th century, but some people sneer at it. (It's their loss!) It dates back centuries.
Coincidences and dues ex machina usually annoy me to no end, but for some reason Dickens is able to keep them charming rather than annoying.
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Michael said, "The sentiment of 'to do a great right, you may do a little wrong' and "indeed the distinction between the two, being left entirely to the philosopher concerned has been used to justify the death of millions during the 20th century."Remarkable comments, Michael. I read them more than once. When you pointed out this philosophical "teaser" Dickens included when simply describing 2 young thieves running away from their crime, it reminded me that Charles Dickens is not for the light-hearted. I suppose this statement of mine can be easily debated, but the fact is that if you read Dickens carefully he will poke and prod you intellectually as well as philosophically.
This is a fascinating point about Dickens. He was writing almost 200 years ago, yet he can provoke us, the modern reader, into examining our own philosophical values. Reminding us about Lenin and indeed the geopolitical actions of the 20th century world --- frankly made me shiver.
Yet in spite of these serious moments in his novel, the plot is gaining speed and the characters of Oliver and Fagin and now Bill Sikes have probably hooked even the most casual contemporary (as well as the 19th century) reader of Dickens. It is Charles Dickens'ability to link story with critical thinking that captivates me.
Were we to have read Chapter 14 today? In it I found an interesting expression delivered by Mr. Grimwig that I wondered whether someone could explain a little better. He is speaking of his "friend who's got a beef-faced boy...with the voice of a pilot..." What did he mean by pilot? And by the voice of a pilot?
JP wrote: "My Penguin edition seems to separate the scene with the Dodger into Chapter 13." JP, I suffered with you ! I got lost here myself!
I suppose it is the later edition that Dickens wanted to preserve for future generations.
Beth wrote: "I think it's mainly that I don't see what 'who' is referring to."Gradually, he fell into that deep tranquil sleep which ease from recent suffering alone imparts; that calm and peaceful rest which it is pain to wake from. Who, if this were death, would be roused again from all the struggles and turmoils of life; to all its cares for the present; its anxieties for the future; more than all, its weary recollections of the past!"
I believe 'who' refers back to the 'he' following the word 'Gradually'.
In other words, had Oliver been sinking into the final state of death, he would be "roused again to all the struggles and turmoils of life".
Did Dickens really mean this? A religious person thinks of death as being merciful, easing all suffering. John Donne wrote a beautiful poem about this, Death Be Not Proud. "Though some have called thee mighty and dreadful, thou art not so". This is the common Christian belief.
Did Charles Dickens actually make a grammatical error here that misrepresented what he was trying to say? I can't explain it otherwise!
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Not exactly Lee, it's a punctuation error. Charles Dickens believed that the afterlife was something wonderful to look forward to. Both the possible interpretations which I went into in detail are consistent with this. If is not the afterlife where one is "roused again to all the struggles and turmoils of life"., he says, but our Earthly life.
(Lovely comment about his philosophical content, by the way!)
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You can always see which chapter we are discussing at any time, because as soon as it changes, I name and link it to the beginning of the thread.
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But as I said before we started, it is better not to prescribe one specific edition, as it is interesting in itself to see the alterations Charles Dickens made. So please do mention them for us all to see - but also know that they are not a cause for worry. You haven't got lost!
Time to move on!
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âThey were happy days, those of Oliverâs recovery. Everything was so quiet, and neat, and orderly; everybody so kind and gentle; that after the noise and turbulence in the midst of which he had always lived, it seemed like Heaven itself.â
When Oliver has recovered, Mr. Brownlow invites him to his study, as he wants to talk to him. Oliver admires all the books, saying he would like to read them, and makes Mr. Brownlow laugh with his honest candour:
âwouldnât you like to be a book-writer?â said the old gentleman.
Oliver considered a little while; and at last said, he should think it would be a much better thing to be a book-sellerâ
Oliver learns that the people Mr. Brownlow loves most are dead. Just as Oliver is about to tell the story of his life, a visitor arrivesâMr. Grimwig, an old friend of Mr. Brownlow.
Mr. Grimwig is a stout irascible old gentleman, rather lame in one leg, who twists his head to one side and speaks with a âgrowling, discontented voiceâ. He is highly sceptical about Oliver, whom he considers bound to be a dishonest good-for-nothing, and makes this clear by his demeanour, suspecting him to have deliberately put orange peel on the steps to trip him up.
"Look here! do you see this?" - Frederic W. Pailthorpe 1886
Not surprisingly, Oliver is keen to leave the room when sent on an errand, and Mr. Grimwig keeps questioning Mr. Brownlow:
âWhere does he come from! Who is he? What is he? He has had a fever. What of that? Fevers are not peculiar to good people; are they?â
and asking archly whether Mrs. Bedwin counts the silver, in case some goes missing. Later Mr. Brownlow asks Oliver to come to him in the morning to continue their conversation, and Oliver, feeling scrutinised harshly by Mr. Grimwig, is slow to reply. Mr. Grimwig takes this as an indication that Oliver is lying, which angers Mr. Brownlow.
A packet of books is delivered. Mr. Brownlow realises they have not been paid for and that he has books that need to be returned, so Mr. Grimwig suggests sending Oliver, to prove his point. Feeling thoroughly needled and out of sorts by Mr. Grimwigâs attitude, Mr. Brownlow decides that he will send Oliver to the booksellerâs to deal with it, even though it will be his first time out of the house since he recovered. Mr. Grimwig warns his friend that, with new clothes, a parcel of valuable books, and a five pound note, Oliver will âjoin his old friends the thieves, and laugh at you. If ever that boy returns to this house, sir, Iâll eat my headâ.
Mrs. Bedwin makes sure Oliver knows where to go, and understands what he has to do, reluctantly waving him goodbye:
âBless his sweet face!â said the old lady, looking after him. âI canât bear, somehow, to let him go out of my sight.ââ
And the two men sit waiting in silence, with the watch between them, as night falls.
"Waiting for Oliver" - Harry Furniss 1910
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And we meet Mr. Grimwigâwhat a name! And it doesnât disappoint but is thoroughly appropriate, as we can tell his crotchety character right from the start. Grim and irascible, deliberately taking the opposing position to his friend (whatever he secretly believes). Mr. Grimwig seems to dress in an old-fashioned almost 18th century way, and wears a powdered wig. But what I love most is his characterisation, in which Charles Dickens repeatedly uses the idiomatic expression âIâll eat my headâ to emphasise his eccentricity.
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Did you pick up the hint of utilitarianism again, here:
âWe wonât make an author of you, while thereâs an honest trade to be learnt, or brick-making to turn to.â
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And what do you think to the set of new clothes that he has (apart from the fact that they too seem rather elaborate!) The symbolism seemed very clear. Oliver has a new life, and is joyfully casting off his old life, along with his clothes, his âsad ragsâ coincidentally taken by another Jewish man. His benefactor Mr. Brownlow provides him with brand new clothing, and Oliver is âquite delighted to think they were safely gone, and that there was now no possible danger of his ever being able to wear them again.â The highlighted words seem significant.
Youâll probably remember other instances from Charles Dickensâs future novels, in which the loss or switch of clothes symbolises a great change, such as in Dombey and Son when Florence is kidnapped by Mrs. Brown, who steals her clothes. Florence is rescued by Walter Gay; it is also the first time the little girl meets her future husband.
Another motif Iâm sure you pounced on, is mentioned several times, and is the focus and the end: the centrepiece of this set piece, Mr. Grimwigâs gold watch. It is like a sort of tableau; this is a crucial moment in time for Oliver. What will his fate be?
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Weâve all started to wonder why Mr. Brownlow seems so interested in Oliver.
Mr. Brownlow already seems to be reminded of somebody very dear to him by Oliverâs looks. At the beginning of Chapter 12 he tried to think of who it was that Oliver Twist reminded him of, but gave up.
Then today in chapter 14, Mr. Brownlow says: âI have been deceived, before, ⊠but I feel strongly disposed to trust you, nevertheless; and I am more interested in your behalf than I can well account for, even to myself. The persons on whom I have bestowed my greatest love, lie deep in their graves; but although the happiness and delight of my life lie buried there, too, I have not made a coffin of my heartâ
Does this mean he has a motive for taking an active interest in Oliver? Who can he be referring to (in the bold part)? Any ideas?
Later on he says:
âI only say this, because you have a young heart; and knowing that I have suffered great pain and sorrow, you will be more careful, perhaps, not to wound me again.â
Oliver has not wounded him, so presumably this must refer to someone else Mr. Brownlow knew, who had hurt him. He mentions that he has quite often been disappointed by other people, without going into particulars, though he hints that there have been other needy children who have been befriended by him.
âYou say you are an orphan, without a friend in the world ⊠Let me hear your story; where you come from; who brought you up; and how you got into the company in which I found you. Speak the truth, and you shall not be friendless while I live.â
Here it becomes clear that Mr. Brownlow sees Oliver as a kind of stand-in for someone else he has loved and he has been disappointed in. The mystery deepens!
What are Mr. Brownlowâs real motives for helping Oliver? Is it benevolent philanthropy, or given all that he is hinting at with being hurt in the past, does he want to prove to himself that he can still trust other people? It seems strange that he should so readily fall in with Mr. Grimwigâs suggestion of sending Oliver out with the books and money, as though he wanted to prove something to to his friend - but what?
Is this like the Book of Job, where (as I understand it, but feel free to correct me!) God is so sure of Jobâs loyalty that he makes Job and his kin suffer all sorts of unpleasant things, just to prove to Satan that He knows Job better than Satan thinks? If this a good analogy, then Mr. Brownlow must represent God and Mr. Grimwig must represent his adversary, Satan.
Of course it is further complicated because as Charles Dickens says, the curmudgeonly Mr. Grimwig is not aware of his own motives either! He was ânot by any means a bad-hearted manâ, and would not really want to see his optimistic old friend disillusioned and unhappy; he would have been âunfeignedly sorry to see his respected friend duped and deceived âŠâ, but he also has a perverse pleasure in being shown to be right. Could it just be that he is jealous of this new arrival commanding his friendâs attention?
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Lots to think about in today's chapter! Let's have your thoughts đ
A very rich chapter full of Dickensian symbols, watches, portraits and clothes. And very rich comments by Jean too!I am puzzled by Mr Brownlow indeed. Who is he, what happened to him in the past, why is he so helpful, while Mrs Bedwin is so maternal?
Unpleasant Mr Grimwig (a Mephistophelian visitant like those in Thomas Hardy's novels?) who is challenging Mr Brownlow in his benevolent and trustful attitude?
I liked your comparison with Job. Yes God allows Satan to challenge Job, provided he doesn't hurt him (Job1:12). Satan is testing Job's faith in God, till Job fully realises his true and deep-rooted relationship with God. God makes him understand that he created all things, Job deprived of all his loved ones and belongings sees nature, animals, etc and thus Job says:
"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee." (Job 42:5) and all things are restored. Honestly Job it is a very difficult book...
I like your idea of Grimwig as a Mephistophelian visitant, Claudia! I have read only a few Dickens novels compared to many of you, but Grimwig does remind me of Skimpole in Bleak House, someone who is kindly tolerated by Brownlow, but could be dangerous. I don't trust him!In another comparison, I think the Peggotty that some of us earlier wished for to come into Oliver's life has arrived, with Mrs. Bedwin.
All hints are pointing to the portrait being of Oliver's mother, but that feels too pat, and I'm expecting something more complicated.
Amazing how Dickens has set up so many parallel mysteries for us already. He gives each character such depth that we wonder about their fate and backstory almost as much as we wonder about Oliver's.
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That's a nice comparison, Kathleen! I think both of them would be based on a nurse Charles Dickens had, when he was a very small boy, and of whom he was very fond. I don't think her name was recorded, but she was with the family when they lived at 22 Cleveland St. (Her basis for Peggotty is also mentioned in our upcoming side read of Dickens and the Workhouse: Oliver Twist and the London Poor by Ruth Richardson.)
Oh my goodness, I don't think I could stand another Harold Skimpole!
Charles Dickens did record in his mems (notes) for another of our group reads, Dombey and Son that one character should be "Mephistophelian". This was about (view spoiler). Oddly enough though, we didn't think he was particularly Devilish, even though he kept referring to himself as being so!
Anna wrote: "Were we to have read Chapter 14 today? In it I found an interesting expression delivered by Mr. Grimwig that I wondered whether someone could explain a little better. He is speaking of his "friend ..."OK, I still never got an answer about the beef-faced boy with the voice of a pilot.
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Sorry Anna - I ran out of time looking for this last night, and had to go to bed ...
"Beef faced boy" is contrasted with a "mealy" boy like Oliver. So since we know Oliver is thin and frail, we know that a beef-faced boy is hearty-looking with a good colour in his face.
"Pilot" was what I was looking up, and my best guess is that this is a pilot whale (since this is many decades before aviation!) Sure enough, pilot whales have a distinctive voice:
"Vocalizations emitted by pilot whales include echolocation clicks, whistles, and pulsed sounds. The calls of the long-finned pilot whale are usually more narrow and lower in frequency than short-finned pilot whale vocalizations."
Mr. Grimwig probably just means the boy has a loud, perhaps unpleasant booming voice which carries. He tends to get things wrong as we saw with the orange peel. Whoever could slip on orange peel? The standard joke is abut slipping on a banana skin, but Mr. Grimwig has got the wrong fruit!
He's a bit of an idiot; a comic character.
(I hope you've managed to relocate yourself now, Anna! đ)
I just wanted to make a few miscellaneous comments on the post for Chaps 11 & 12. First, Bionic Jean I continue to be so grateful for all the posts placing everything in historical context, I learn so much as well as the use of language. I am constantly surprised by the differences in words used in Bristish English and American English as well as customs. I had to look up the word panopticon . Of course that is not the only word I have to research but if it is in the novel than usually my edition has the meaning available in the notes.
When Bill Sikes comes into the story, the picture that immediately comes into my mind is one of Oliver Reed who played him in the movie musical Oliver! Very menacing in appearance & the character is quite amoral. In the play & musical, he and Nancy are in a very toxic relationship, I did not get the feeling that there was any connection between them in the chapter. In fact wasn't there a mention that she was new to the area, or did that mean that she was new to this part of London?
No, I was not gorgeously attired as Bet. Quite dull & shabby actually. In the musical she is portrayed as quite a bit younger, someone Nancy took under wing and is used as a more innocent character similar to Oliver. I am coming to the conclusion that the musical was quite a whitewashed version of the novel.
I was taken with the scene with the portrait as well and felt Mr. Brownlow knew who it was but just not the connection to Oliver although it is mentioned As he spoke, he pointed hastily to the picture above Oliver's head; and then to the boy's face. There was its living copy. The eyes, the head, the mouth; every feature was the same. The expression was, for the instant, sp precisely alike, that the minutest line seemed copied with startling accuracy.
I immediately thought that this was Oliver's mother as I believe someone else has stated. The mystery is how did his mother go from a place of comfort to being on the streets & giving birth at a workhouse.
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I'm so glad you're getting a lot out of it Chris, and yes, isn't Oliver Reed perfect for the part of Bill Sikes!
"In the musical she is portrayed as quite a bit younger, someone Nancy took under wing"
That's surprising isn't it, as Nancy herself is only 17 (like Mary Hogarth was when she died a couple of months earlier!) but perhaps Nancy's age isn't clear yet.
I agree that the musical - and children's editions too - are whitewashed quite a bit đ
"wasn't there a mention that she was new to the area, or did that mean that she was new to this part of London?"
Yes, both. Nancy is from the "delightfully named" Ratcliffe, which is why nobody in the area knows her. LINK HERE for my earlier post.
"The mystery is how did his mother go from a place of comfort to being on the streets & giving birth at a workhouse."
Indeed ... and if we go with this theory for a bit, then what possible relationship could Mr. Brownlow be? He is an eminently respectable single gentleman! He can hardly be the father, or he'd lose all sympathy with the readers of the time.
Bionic Jean wrote: ""Pilot" was what I was looking up, and my best guess is that this is a pilot whale (since this is many decades before aviation!) Sure enough, pilot whales have a distinctive voice:"Aha, I was thinking of a ship pilot and of course they always toot the ship horns as they come in to a harbour or to dock. This is loud so could convey a stentorian voice easily. Was it common to refer to a pilot whale as simply a pilot? A ship pilot, which is a very old skill, has knowledge of an often dangerous or congested waterway (such as harbours or rivers) so they board ships to take over in those areas. I wasn't sure how that fit. They are well paid but have high risk jobs.
Many aeronautical terms and jobs come from ships. I was born a stone's through from the ocean (for someone with a very good arm and not a large stone) and grew up near the water. Every singe ferry (large ferries) makes those sounds when they come near the docks as do tug boats, etc. Pilots also run the tugs that help large ships in and out of harbours (not for ferries, of course.)
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Thanks to several of you for your answers about the pilot and his "voice." I can certainly imagine a foghorn type of voice - loud and unpleasant and interruptive.
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Oliverâs amazement over Mr. Brownlowâs library with so many books is delightful! Then, Mr. Brownlowâs conversation with Oliver is so poignant and one that I think Dickens may have intended to add. They talk about whether Oliver would want to be a writer but he would rather just read them. It shows how much Mr. Brownlow is willing to do for Oliver (educate him) who at this point was afraid he was going to be turned out again. I love the reassurance from Mr. B. I donât know if this is significant but it caught my attention:
âThank you, sir,â said Oliver. At the earnest manner of his reply, the old gentleman laughed again; and said something about a curious instinct, which Oliver, not understanding, paid no very great attention to.
Something about Oliver has Mr. B remembering another.
I am worried about what might happen to Oliver as he delivers the books to the book seller. Without the safety of Mr. Bâs house, he is vulnerable and itâs getting on toward dark. Seems like Faginâs crew was also leaving to move dens.
Chris you have a much better memory than I do about the Oliver production. I can remember what I was wearing and all of the makeup and the feather in my hair, but not the red and green dress described in the text. Iâm trying to locate my pictures Jean.
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Very good chapter, Jean, which left me very worried for Oliver after the events of the prior chapter. I was disappointed that Oliver didnât have his opportunity to tell his story due to Mr. Grimwigâs arrival. I have a feeling that will be important. Foreshadowed by Mr. Grimwig himself. What a name! And Dickens has done it again with his description of the manâs face.
Yes Lori I noticed that sentence too and I found the end of the chapter definitely worrying.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Good thought Karin! And actually they have the same implication (noisy, cacophonous, carrying etc.) Perhaps pilot whales were called after this? Anyway, given that pilot horns were definitely aroun..."You're welcome! Glad I was able to help since you know so much :)
But one other thing--pilot whales are actually dolphins and not nearly as large as orcas (I just looked up when they got their name) and their call is very high pitched, so I'm guessing ship pilot. You can hear what pilot whales sound like from the air in a boat at the start of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1_0I... .
I really like the friendship of Mr Brownlow and Mr Grimwig. I feel like Mr Grimwig means well, unlike Mr Skimpole in Bleak House.I also feel like Mr Brownlow is a future Charles Dickens, as we know he tried to help many as he aged.
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That's an interesting perspective, Jenny. I often feel that if an author creates a good, intelligent and reasonable person, they are writing a flattering portrait of themselves, i.e. how they would like to be!
I actually could see Charles Dickens as Oliver in this scene. The little boy who listens avidly to stories (told by Mrs. Bedwin), is eager to learn, loves books, loves things to be neat and and orderly (Charles Dickens was obsessive about this!) and decide on the whole that much as he loves to read, it would be good to have a business!
By the way, one of my favourite quotations from this chapter is:
"there are books of which the backs and covers are by far the best parts." đ
I love that line too, Jean. Sadly true too often but happily there are so many good ones, to which Mr. Dickens made many contributions.
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Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Canterbury Tales (other topics)David Copperfield (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Bartholomew Fair Play by Ben Jonson Annotated (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Geoffrey Chaucer (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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When you played Bet, were you "gaily, not to say gorgeously attired, in a red gown, green boots, and yellow curl-papers" - for authenticity, you understand? We're still waiting for a photograph of you, and Chris who I believe also said she played the part of Bet ... đ
I'm so pleased Franky and Sue - and great info to put it all into context, Janelle.
It's amazing to think that Oliver Twist was on the stage in America as soon as it was published (my earlier comment) and still is even now!