The Adventures of Miss Barbara Pym by Paula Byrne (July 2023)

[Nigeyb]

All good points RC


It is interesting that Paula Byrne shies away from analysis given her track record that you refer to.

I had a similar thought about religion and BP, and concluded that whilst she regularly attended church she probably wasn't actually that devout. In decades gone by there were a lot of people who regularly attended as much for the community aspect as for any deeply held conviction. I'd say many of those we meet in Excellent Women fall into this category. Or perhaps it's as simple as BP never mentions it in her letters, diaries and notebooks so it's pointless to speculate?

[Roman Clodia]

Nigeyb wrote: "Or perhaps it's as simple as BP never mentions it in her letters, diaries and notebooks so it's pointless to speculate?"

Yes, I do think there is a scarcity of sources or, at least, Byrne quotes from the same ones throughout - very annoying about those cut out pages in the diaries!

Btw, BP's diaries and notebooks have been published: A Very Private Eye: The Diaries, Letters and Notebooks of Barbara Pym so I'm not sure how much additional research Byrnes did.

The end was moving and sad, wasn't it - but I liked that Henry came to visit her for the last time in the hospice.

[Roman Clodia]

ps. I'd read about the Amery brother and the treason trial - what an interesting connection!

[Nigeyb]

Yes, the reconciliation with Henry had a pleasing circularity.


The end was sad but seemingly BP stayed upbeat for the majority of the time. Her main regret being unable to finish all the book ideas she’d had

[WndyJW]

Disappointing to hear she had affairs with Nazis. Pym died in 1980, do we know if in the long years since the war ended, when the truth of the Holocaust became public knowledge, she realized how wrong she was?

[Roman Clodia]

To be fair, it was one Nazi... though he was an SS officer and said to be close to Hitler ☹️

She did come to understand what the regime was doing - her sister as an anti-fascist and other friends tried to tell her in the late 1930s but BP wouldn't listen at the time.

[Nigeyb]

And once war was declared and the stories about the regime became irrefutable she felt an enormous sense of shame and embarrassment about the episode. I think we should cut her some slack.

[Roman Clodia]

Me too. It's easy with hindsight to cast blame but let's not forget that the British right-wing press like the Daily Mail were praising Hitler on their front pages and creating hysteria about the 'invasion' of Jewish refugees to Britain.

I think there's also still debate about exactly when news filtered out about concentration camps. Sources seem to indicate that even soldiers who went into the death camps had no idea what was happening there till they saw the sickening sights for themselves.

[Tania]

I remember reading The Jasmine Farm, an obscure Elizabeth von Arnim novel published in 1934. She mentioned concentration camps I think, certainly something to do with what was happening there. She had German connections, but I believe the novel was published here. I think the information was available, but maybe you'd have to dig for it. I hear so many people telling me they don't read/listen/watch the news because it's too depressing, I wonder if that has changed. I suspect not. How many of us are truely informed about what is actually happening in our own time?

I don't mean to excuse her, she had connections and should have been aware, but I wouldn't be surprised if she knew very little of the realities of what was happening.

[Roman Clodia]

Also concentration camps existed from the early 1930s and were essentially work/prison camps. They were functionally different from the industrialised death camps that were the result of the Final Solution.

I remember a letter from one of the Hitler-loving Mitford sisters who wrote about having tea with Hitler and then going to visit a concentration camp... This was before the war.

[WndyJW]

So BP didn’t know. That’s good. I won’t hold it against her.

My 96 yr old friend was born in Berlin and remembers hearing what her family thought were rumors about the camps. Understandably, they thought they were too awful to be true when word first got out.

[Alwynne]

I'm not sure I'd want to entirely let her off the hook. It sounds not so much as if she didn't know as that she didn't want to "know" in any sense that might impact on following her desires. It's rather like the people who happily holiday in countries with appalling human rights records, as long as they don't have to be directly affected they ignore that inconvenient aspect of reality.

[Roman Clodia]

That's the impression I got, Alwynne - however much her family and friends were telling her, she didn't want to know. Hence Nazis in the first version of Gazelle and right from the start Jock Liddell was telling her to take them out.

[Alwynne]

Exactly, as you rightly say the industrialised death camps came much later, although there were mass shootings and mobile death units that preceded those - the gas vans for example. But the general camps, lynching, social isolation and all those other forms of persecution and anti-Semitic measures were already well under way during the 1930s and widely known. As were the extreme measures taken against anyone queer, the rounding up of members of political groups, and the sterilisation of individuals singled out as "defective'" from a Nazi perspective began very early on too, I believe.

[Alwynne]

Now I'm wondering if there's a decent book about British cultural attitudes towards Nazis in the 1930s, I've read about the relevant Mitfords but they were part of a wider trend in certain English circles. And I've also come across material on the pro-Nazi political movements but not a general social/cultural history.

[Roman Clodia]

I remember looking for something when I was teaching the Ian McKellen film of Richard III set in the 1930s but couldn't find anything. There are, of course, newspaper archives such as this showing how Lord Rothermere had his papers like the Dail Mail supporting Hitler, Mussolini and Mosley's Blackshirts:

www.gale.com/intl/archives-explored/d...

As you say, the support of the Mitfords and other aristocratic families is known but the Mail is testament to mass media support for fascism aiming to persuade the general population. I remember using photos of Girl Guides and Brownies in east London cheering on Mosley's Blackshirts and giving the heil Hitler salute while lining the streets.

So there's plenty of material available to tell this story.

[Alwynne]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I remember looking for something when I was teaching the Ian McKellen film of Richard III set in the 1930s but couldn't find anything. There are, of course, newspaper archives such as this showing ..."

Those archives look interesting, I read a biography of Diana Mosley that mentioned a few things, and there are films like Stephen Poliakoff's "Glorious 39". What would be great is something a bit like the Feigel Blitz book examining writers, prominent socialites and right-wing culture in 1930s Britain.

[Roman Clodia]

That would be good and a necessary correction to the national myth that 'we' were generally against fascism in the 1930s.

Going back to Pym, I can see how she allowed herself to not know at the time.

[WndyJW]

That’s disappointing.

In The Remains of the Day, one of my favorites, the man, (the Lord, but why would I call him Lord) Stevens was so devoted to was a Nazi supporter if I remember correctly.

[Roman Clodia]

He was, indeed, Wendy - which was part of Stevens' abdication of political responsibility that he followed and obeyed him all the same.

[Roman Clodia]

Moving on from the unsavoury Nazi lover, I've been pondering what creates Pym's 'excellent women' - she herself never wholly fitted that mould and they're intelligent, educated, seem to have a bit of inherited money.

Mildred in Excellent Women does break out during that book within somewhat genteel limits. But why are Belinda, Harriet and Agatha content with running around after inadequate men?

The more I read of Pym, the more quietly subversive I find her. In a way, she's sort of dramatizing Simone de Beauvoir's theorisation of 'the second sex' and displaying how patriarchy works to 'produce' women, not least the way they internalise patriarchal values. Every time Belinda admits Hoccleve's arrogance and dependency on all that admiration, it makes me smile.

But there's that poignant moment when Agatha, who's cleverer than the archbishop, dreams wistfully of doing research... rather than knitting socks.

I think I'm saying that there's more substance to these book than the frothy surface might indicate, as much as I enjoy the comedy.

[Nigeyb]

And that's why I love reading your posts RC


Fab insights and analysis

Thanks

[Brian E]

While I once thought of reading this during the upcoming July Buddy read, I will take a pass for two reasons:

1) I believe that the personal pain I'd get from any plot reveals for books I have not yet read will outweigh the personal gain I'd get from the insights the book's info would give me when I ultimately do read the book; this is even with the knowledge that I may have enjoyed Some Tame Gazelle more if I had a background on the real life Oxford personalities Pym based her characters on; and
2) the book is way too long. I like Pym but I can't see reading almost 700 pages on her, even if it ends up being only 500 pages due to ending 'stuff;
- Maybe I'll read it when I've read more of Pym's novels

[Roman Clodia]

That's a fair judgement, Brian. The only thing I'd say is that I came away from Byrne liking Pym as a person very much which perhaps makes her books all the more enjoyable. There are spoilers for sure, even though her books aren't very plot-y as you know. But yes, maybe one to come back to.

[Nigeyb]

RC has said exactly what I was going to say Brian, but I'll say my version anyway...


Overall reading the biog is a net gain. Plots don't matter much in her books so I don't mind any reveals (most of which I've forgotten or will forget anyway), and the insights into her and her life, which really informs her work, makes reading the novels richer and more interesting

[Brian E]

I've thought about it and determined that there are advantages to reading the bio but that the ultimate reason not too read it is that it is too damn long. I do remember thinking I'd add this maybe as a Kindle, and looking at it on Amazon expecting to see 300+ pages, possibly 400+ and going Whoa! when I saw it listed at 704 pages. While perusing all these comments here already nobody else seems to complain about the length, but it still seemed to me to be too much time.
Maybe I'll just read Flannery O'Connor's bio. It's only 464 pages. She didn't date any Nazis that I know of. Actually, I don't know of her dating anyone. :)

[Nigeyb]

I listened to the biog on audiobook - 17 hours and 6 minutes - which flew by. I don't know if you bother with Audiobooks but I like them for some longer reads.

[Roman Clodia]

I read it on Kindle and it didn't feel long.

Flannery O'C, as noted in another discussion, may not have dated a Nazi but seems to have had ideas that wouldn't be out of place on an extreme right-wing manifesto ... If you read her bio, please do report back, I'd be interested in learning more but she's definitely a Not For Me author.

[Brian E]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Flannery O'C, as noted in another discussion, may not have dated a Nazi but seems to have had ideas that wouldn't be out of place on an extreme right-..."

I was joking about Flannery O'Connor as I had read the other discussion. I had thought about phrasing my statement about her as: "She didn't date any Nazis that I know of. She just shared some of their views." And also thought of "She didn't date any Nazis that I know of. She just was a Nazi." But I instead decided on the less controversial "She didn't date any Nazis that I know of. Actually, I don't know of her dating anyone."

I've only done audio on a few long car rides and I find i get distracted easily which isn't good for either my listening or driving. I also don't feel like I'm reading something if I listen to it. I'm more apt to listen to a re-read or non-fiction.
I do plan on listening to books a lot, though, in my upcoming years as my eyesight diminishes. I imagine it will be a relaxing experience and look forward to it as something new and fresh to enliven my late 70s through my 80s (however long I last) life.

[Roman Clodia]

Ha! Kind of disappointed you won't be telling me about Fo'C's life, Brian! I'll just have to live without knowing more about her 😉

I think there's a skill in listening to audiobooks - I initially found them hard to concentrate on whereas now I often listen on my commute. I find non-fiction great on audio or very plot-y thrillers and similar. Fiction where the writing is important is much harder in my case and I stick to the book.

One way to get into audio is via full-cast productions, sort of a modern radio drama. The BBC does a vast selection which I download from my library, everything from Agatha Christie to nineteenth century classics.

[WndyJW]

I found focusing on audio books was skill that can be developed, like reading. The more you do it, the longer you can pay attention without distraction, although some books I just cannot do in audio. First person narratives work very well. Young Mungo and the Lucy Barton books by Elizabeth Strout were better for me in audio.

[David]

I've found the same thing, Wendy. I can do audio when it's a more straightforward narrative. Young Mungo is a good example. A lot of the books we read here would work too. I mostly did Cassandra at the Wedding on audio and thought that worked very well.

[Jan C]

Lincoln in the Bardo was a book I could not read in print and could only vaguely follow in audio. But it was a good cast of a large number of people.

[David]

Lincoln in the Bardo is fantastic on audio. It's an entirely different experience reading it vs. listening to it. little scratch was like that too.

[Roman Clodia]

Whereas I struggled with Lincoln in the Bardo on audio, and loved the book! So I guess it's trial and finding your individual sweet spot.