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Bel-Ami
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Bel Ami - Part 1, Ch 5 - 8
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Silver wrote: "Jenn wrote: "I am glad that Madame Forestiere told him about her independent ways. I don't know if it's something that Duroy could handle or not. I think he would be offended if she were seeing oth..."I think it would be fair that they could both continue to do what they wanted on the side, but I wonder if there would be a double standard, where his ego would get involved. He seems to sabotage himself a lot, as soon as he gets a good thing going. She might want to pick him because she can see he is easily controlled because of his ambition.
Jenn wrote: "Silver wrote: "Jenn wrote: "I am glad that Madame Forestiere told him about her independent ways. I don't know if it's something that Duroy could handle or not. I think he would be offended if she ..."If they do get married I think it will be interesting to see how Duroy reacts to Madame Forestier having other lovers.
While I don't know if I would say that Duroy loves her, I believe that he is genuinely attracted to her and has some infatuation/admiration for her. I don't think he wants to marry her just for her money. I don't think he is as practical minded about the relationship as she is.
I think he has some real feelings for her and I think he might believe that Madame Forestier might have or come to have some real feelings for him. And in his eagerness and determination to marry her he might not truly be taking in and the full ramifications of the conditions she placed upon their getting married. I think he would agree to anything just to have her say yes.
Cindy wrote: "Then Duroy starts thinking about his relationship with Mme Forestier. Did anyone think that was just wrong at the wrong time. The end of the chapter seemed ghastly, maybe I read too many ghost stories."There was certainly a ghastly odor! ;-> That's why they were leaning out the window right ? I somehow expected that to become a humorous situation but it did not.
I have a question. In part 2 Doruy starts calling MMe Forestier My Made. Is this a translation error or a play on words? I am using one of the translations from the Gutenberg projects.
Cindy wrote: "I have a question. In part 2 Doruy starts calling MMe Forestier My Made. Is this a translation error or a play on words? I am using one of the translations from the Gutenberg projects."In my translation I think it is Mado Or something close to that. My impression is that it was a sort of nick name of her first name which is Madeleine.
Mod
It was Mado is my translation as well. Like Silver, it appeared to me to be a nickname
What annoys me most about Duroy, is that at times I actually like him. I mean, everytime he is at the verge of disaster, I feel extremely sorry for him, and hope he will somehow manage to get through. Even in scenes where he experiences minor akwardness, I feel tenderness for his unsteadiness. That being said, as soon as he finds his footing again, he becomes obnoxiously arrogant, and ungrateful, and I detest him. I suppose there is a love/hate relationship between me and Duroy, and actually, between me and the book in general...Is Duroy a villain? I don't think he's that, for sometimes he does have some feelings beyond his own interests (though, admittedly, it doesn't happen often). I think Duroy is extremely insecure and self-deprecating at heart and that he is arrogant and egotistic simply as a result of all this underlying insecurity. This may sound strange, but Duroy somehow reminds me of Raskolnikov in "Crime and Punishment". The difference between the two lies mainly in the authors' approach (and obviously, some change in settings, character, etc.)
I wonder if Duroy's married women would now be using a website such as this, which is shocking French catholics::http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31...
Clara wrote: "What annoys me most about Duroy, is that at times I actually like him. I mean, everytime he is at the verge of disaster, I feel extremely sorry for him, and hope he will somehow manage to get throu..."That is an interesting comparison between Duroy and Raskolnikov. I had not thought of it, but I can see the similarities between the two of them.
I would agree with you that a lot of Duroy's arrogance is an extension of his lack of self-confidence and the insecurities he has within himself. I think this is also what drives him to ultimately end up making a mess of things once they do seem to be going his way.
I would not classify Duroy as a villain, I mean really all he has done is be a bit of a womanizer and involve himself with married women. While a morally questionable behavior there are certainly much worse things a person could do.
I also have a tendency to like him, and in some respects feel sorry for him as well as be amused by him. Yes he can be irritating at times it is true and he can be self-centered.
Women traditionally like charming rogues Silver and we are no exception:)
MadgeUK wrote: "Women traditionally like charming rogues Silver and we are no exception:)"My friend Scott would become incensed that my favorite character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer was Spike, who, he would explain using Logic, was evil and an abuser of woman. No, Spike is reformed, he is good now! No, it's just the chip; he is still evil. Etc.
Spike is a charming rogue for the ages! ;->
Mod
I must admit to not having (yet) read Crime and Punishment so I can't make a comparison.
The love/ hate response to the novel, I think, would please the author. He deliberately brings out the juxtapositions of such things as strength/weakness, success/failure, splendor/squalor.
I, unfortunately, dislike Duroy. Maybe I'm just not a rogue fan. Maybe it's my New England upbringing.
Was adultery illegal when the book was written? I wondered why the police was called. I am not a rogue fan either. I grew up in the Midwest and my upbringing was having a little is just enough. Maybe that is why this book frustrates me. I laughed when he caught his wife with another man. How many affairs did Duroy have?
Clara wrote: "Is Duroy a villain?"I don't see him as that, since he isn't intentionally destructive toward anybody. I see him primarily as amoral, perhaps a bit psychopathic in that he wants what he wants without any apparent concern for the rights of others.
Bonnie wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Women traditionally like charming rogues Silver and we are no exception:)"My friend Scott would become incensed that my favorite character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer was Spike, w..."
You gotta love Spike. He sacrificed for everyone in the end!
Cindy wrote: "Was adultery illegal when the book was written? I wondered why the police was called. I am not a rogue fan either. I grew up in the Midwest and my upbringing was having a little is just enough. Maybe that is why this book frustrates me. I laughed when he caught his wife with another man. How many affairs did Duroy have? So far just Clo? I wouldn't count sex with prostitutes as affairs. I don't remember the police, when Clo figured out he had slept with Rachel?
Mod
I think it would be impossible to count prostitutes but he did see Rachel quite a few times. Clo is a definite, and Madame Walter a future possibility.
Sorry I'm so far behind, folks. I've finished this section and well into the next, so I'll be back in the game soon.There were a few things I wanted to comment on in this section, and will do so when I have a quieter moment, but one point I'll make now: I don't find Duroy all that scoundrelly, as some other have also mentioned. He isn't even all that interesting - a complete anti-hero. I don't like him; I find him childish and petulant and the only saving grace so far has been that brief but touching mention of his family in Normandy and the fact that he still likes to write to his father and thinks fondly of the inn where they live.
The male and female competition he finds in Parisian society plays the scoundrel game far better than he and, other than his apparent charm and good looks, I often wonder what everyone sees in him.
I am enjoying this novel, despite the character assassination above!
Mod
There were a few things I wanted to comment on in this section, and will do so w..."
Pip I'm glad you are catching up. I won't tell you just how far behind I am in Little Dorrit, but I am determine.
I, too, dislike Duroy for all the reasons you mention. I just want to yell at him to grow up. Yes he is fond of his family, but that appears to be such a minuscule part of his life. He goes to see them so rarely that they don't even recognize him. I don't understand the attraction he seems to generate.
I found many of the names to be descriptive of the character, and I'll gloss a few of them for the non-francophones:Georges Duroy - George King (lit. Of the King) Evident pretensions of grandeur!
Les Forestier - as you might imagine, the Foresters. Reliable?
M. Saint Potin - Mr. St Gossip
M. Boisrenard - Mr. Foxwood / (lit. Woodfox) - I thought this rather sweet, since the ageing journalist is described thus: "Monsieur Boisrenard, who had in his favour the skill acquired by long habit, nevertheless lacked mastery and dash; he lacked, above all, the native cunning needed to put forth day by day the secret ideas of the manager."
Mme. de Marelle - Marelle is the game of hopscotch. What does everyone make of that?! She also turns up at the party just as Georges is being shown a painting called "The Obstacle".
I also wondered whether those paintings at M. Walter's were going to be symbolic in some way of Duroy's progress through life. Among the landscapes were Normandy (his birthplace) a wood (Forestier?) and Algeria, where he had been in the army.I'm not sure about The Hospital Visit, but The Harvester and The Widow in close proximity suggested the events of chapter 8.The painting of the voyeurs is perhaps self-evidently symbolic; The others were An Execution (oh dear....) and then A Rescue, The Lesson and finally The Obstacle just as Mme de Marelle turns up.
Thanks for those insights into the mind ofa Frenchman Pip:)
MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks for those insights into the mind ofa Frenchman Pip:)"Ha ha! You make it sound as if I'd known a fair few, Madge!
MadgeUK wrote: "And??:)"Une dame ne révèle pas ses secrets d'alcove ;-)
MadgeUK wrote: "You did it in an alcove?! Alors!":-))) I walked into that one, didn't i?!
Mod
Pip wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "You did it in an alcove?! Alors!":-))) I walked into that one, didn't i?!"
Bien sùr vous a fait bel ami
.."
I think the two two of the would actually make a perfect, practical match serving each others needs.
Duroy has ambitions and he wants to continue to climb up in the world, live the good life, be respected, but he has no work ethic and wants to do things the easy way.
Madame Forestier is a business woman who wants to be involved in the paper, have influence, have her voice be heard, be able to make some mark upon the world, but to achieve this she needs essentially a male figurehead.
Madame Forestier will happily do the work, in order to see her thoughts, ideas and influence put out there while Duroy is granted the credit without having to put much effort into it.
I don't really know how Duroy would react to her taking on other male lovers, but at the same time would it not only be fair (regardless of the wrongness or rightness of it) for Duroy to be able to continue his relations with Clo?
So if he could accept that of her, they could both carry on their own lives/affairs uninterrupted and gaining the benefits of each other to accomplish what they want to accomplish.