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Bel-Ami
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Bel Ami - Part 1, Ch 5 - 8
One of the things of which I notice is the way in which Guy de Maupassant reveals the power and influence which women have behind the scenes so to speak. In the previous section we talked a lot about Madam Forestier doing the writing of the articles for her husband (and his friends).Now Duroy is granted a promotion based upon Madam Walter's taking a liking to him. And even within the affair he has with Clo it seems she is the one whom holds much of the power.
Duroy is what we would term today a kept man. Clo pays for an apartment for Duroy to stay within and for them to have thier trysts, she gives him money, and in spite of the fact that she is married, she doesn't want Duroy to be involved with other women.
As we have discussed before about whether or no Duroy truly loves Clo (which it seems unlikely considering his fantasies about marrying Madam Forestier) or if he just enjoys having "conquered" a married woman, I myself am not convinced of Clo's genuine love for Duroy.
I think perhaps Clo may be using Duroy as much as he might be using her. She does have a fancy for him, but I think perhaps she is just bored in her marriage and Duroy appeared, an attractive, single young man of whom she could use for her own amusement and pleasure.
Also I really enjoyed the whole dueling scene. I thought it was amusing that Duroy as a former solider was so frightened about the dual, and I enjoyed that comical approach that Guy de Maupassant took, particularly in the scene of the awkwardness of the gun case in the cab, and trying to find a place to put it.
Deborah wrote: "Duroy is on again, off again with Clo. He seems to have no conscience in befriending her husband and spending time with them."He seems to have no conscience, period.
I found what for me was the first instance of really fine writing in the death scene of Forestier. It was the first scene where I had any sense of the characters as characters and not as caricatures.
Silver wrote: "Also I really enjoyed the whole dueling scene. "I also found it amusing, and like you wondered why a man who had been a soldier (if indeed he had been, and that isn't a fantasy of his, which I do wonder about sometimes) needed to remind himself "He kept repeating to himself like a prayer: "When the word is given to fire, I must raise my arm."
Though I think deM could have done a lot more with the actual duel than he did. A duel, after all, was, for the time, a pretty major event, but the actual duel isn't given much more space than a Twitter post.
Everyman wrote: Though I think deM could have done a lot more with the actual duel than he did. A duel, after all, was, for the time, a pretty major event, but the actual duel isn't given much more space than a Twitter post...."I thought the way in which he minimized the significance of the duel itself was part of the humor. Duroy really worked himself up over it, and became convinced that he was going to die, but in the end it did in fact turn out to be rather anti-climatic, which I would presume many duels actually did end that way. As I think it was Rival who made the remark about using pistols and the fact that with pistols either you missed, or you were killed.
Mod
I also found it amusing, and like you wondered why a man who had been a soldier (if indeed he had been, and that isn't a fantasy of ..."
I was amazed at how Duriy seemed to be pushed into the duel and was shocked to find himself in that predicament.
Maupassant wrote quite a lot about duels, including a short story entitled The Duel. It was a very common way of settling disputes and he may not have mentioned it here because he had several times dealt with the topic elsewhere.Duelling really became mainstream when two monarchs got into the act. When the treaty between France and Spain broke down in 1526, Frances I challenged Charles V to a duel. After a lot of back and forth arguing about the arrangements of the duel, their determination to go toe to toe dissipated. But the kings did succeed in making dueling all the rage across Europe. It was especially popular in France; 10,000 Frenchmen are thought to have died during a ten year period under Henry IV. The king issued an edict against the practice, and asked the nobles to submit their grievances to a tribunal of honor for redress instead. But dueling still continued, with 4,000 nobles losing their lives to the practice during the reign of Louis XIV.
Mod
Great info. Thanks Madge
MadgeUK wrote: "Maupassant wrote quite a lot about duels, including a short story entitled The Duel. It was a very common way of settling disputes and he may not have mentioned it here because he had several times..."Actually, by the time deM wrote Bel Ami, dueling was pretty much a thing of the past. It is certainly the case that in the 1400s to 1700s dueling was, as you note, very prevalent (though only among the upper classes who could afford swords or pistols and had learned how to use them), by the early to mid 1800s (Bel Ami was published in 1885),
I don't recall whether we were told what time Bel Ami is set, but certainly after 1874, since that is the year Duroy uses in his abortive attempt to write a novel. By that time, duels were no longer being fought in England (the last duel was reportedly fought in the 1850s), and even on the continent dueling was in serious decline by 1885. So it is not unheard of, but is still a bit of an anachronism for de Maupassant to have a character dueling this late.
Mod
Deborah wrote: "Abortive attempt at a novel? Please be careful of spoilers."Sorry. I should have said abortive attempt at a memoir, which he starts in Chapter 3 (per below). If he tries a novel later in the book, that will be news to me, since I haven't read past chapter 8 -- if it was a spoiler, it was a totally inadvertent one. But still you're right, I should have been more precise.
Then he tried to frame the opening sentence. He remained with his head on his hands and his eyes fixed on the white sheet spread out before him. What should he say? He could no longer recall anything of what he had been relating a little while back; not an anecdote, not a fact, nothing.
All at once the thought struck him: "I must begin with my departure."
And he wrote: "It was in 1874, about the middle of May, when France, in her exhaustion, was reposing after the catastrophe of the terrible year."
He stopped short, not knowing how to lead up to what should follow—his embarkation, his voyage, his first impressions.
After ten minutes' reflection, he resolved to put off the introductory slip till to-morrow, and to set to work at once to describe Algiers.
Mod
Deborah wrote: "I don't know what's beyond chapter 8 either. I'm reading along with the group, I take pretty good notes and couldn't find a novel reference,"Sorry for the confusion.
Re post #9: Although during the Enlightenment duelling had been declining in Europe, at the beginning of the Third Republic in France (1870) there was what has been described as an 'epidemic' of duelling and up to 300 deaths a year were caused by it, which was probably why Maupassant and other French authors of the period included it in their novels. This was in part due to the 'cult of manliness' which arose after Germany defeated France in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71, a war in which Maupassant fought. Duelling schools were also set up to teach young men how to be 'manly' again. This cult continued in both France and Germany until WW1 when it is thought that the slaughter of so many young men from the officer class also helped to bring duelling to an end. (See 'Fencing, the Duel and Republican Manhood in the Third Republic' by Robert Nye.) Although Maupassant did not fight any duels himself he was reportedly a 'manly' man and a keen sportsman, with a fashionable interest in duelling and other 'manly' things. (See the PDF Maupassant's Men : Masculinity and the Franco Prussian War.)
The reference to France's exhaustion in '...1874...after the catastrophe of the terrible year' is to the defeat of 1871, a defeat which Maupassant thought had de-masculinised Frenchmen and masculinised women. (French feminism received a boost during this war due to the well publicised heroic actions of women nurses.)
Early in the novel Maupassant gives a first hand description of the Folies Bergere in Paris, established in 1869, and its very mixed clientele, 'nothing but solid citizens with their wives and children and...men...of every kind from every profession and every class':'In the vast lobby that leads into the circular promenade, where the gaudily dressed pack of whores prowls about, mingling with the dark-suited crowd of men, a group of women waited for the new arrivals in front of one of the three counters, over which three raddled and rouged vendors of drink and of love were presiding. Behind them, tall mirrors reflected their backs and the faces of the passers-by."
The reference to 'tall mirror's reminded me of the well known painting by Manet:
http://www.courtauld.ac.uk/gallery/co...
A recent display of the magnificent costumes Maupassant might have seen:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...
Maupassant was an 'insatiable womanizer', he had countless affairs and his portrayals of prostitutes and brothels were drawn from firsthand experience. His sexual excesses led to his contracting syphilis in his 20s and by the age of 40 he was showing signs of madness. In January 1892 Maupassant attempted suicide by slashing his throat and was committed to an insane asylum in Passy, near Paris, where he died one month before his 43rd birthday.
Moving from the background information back to the novel itself, it seems to me that Duroy's conquests of married women show a side of his character that we haven't really addressed yet. He seems to have no compunction about seducing other mens' wives. This and his willingness to borrow money without much restraint seems to place this novel squarely in the category of the picaresque novel. It will be interesting to see whether he continues in this guise for the remainder of the novel, or whether there is any moral growth in him as he ages.
If he is a picaro, he won't get any better but will remain a scoundrel:)In Recollections of a Bachelor Maupassant wrote:
'The especial attraction in a married woman to a bachelor is that she gives him a home, a sweet, pleasant home where every one takes care of you and spoils you, from the husband to the servants. One finds everything combined there, love, friendship, even fatherly interest, bed and board, all, in fact, that constitutes the happiness of life, with this incalculable advantage, that one can change one's family from time to time, take up one's abode in all kinds of society in turn: in summer, in the country with the workman who rents you a room in his house; in winter with the townsfolk, or even with the nobility, if one is ambitious.'
(view spoiler)
Mod
For me, this is not an enjoyable book. While the descriptions are beautifully written, I'm finding the characters and plot fairly flat. Hopefully, I will feel differently by the end.
Through chapter 7 I have been trying to figure out if he is in love with Clotilde. I agree I don't think Duroy is capable of love. The characters do seem flat, is it because none of them have any morals. Maybe that makes the plot drag on. I am not really enjoying the book, hoping part 2 gets better.
I liked how it said that although The Walters are High Society folks, they are thrifty High Society and rent out part their house. I looked online for the paintings DuRoy saw at the Walters' -- couldn't find any so maybe the paintings themselves are invented by Maupassant. (Wouldn't you like to see the one of the girl climbing to the upper deck of the tram, and the sedan-chair by the workers' brawl?) However, all the painters are real. And all the named paintings could reasonably have been done by that painter, i.e. Detaille painted lots of soldiers; Lambert lots of kittens.
In any case it was a pleasant half hour French Art History lesson. The artists mentioned (whose works Monsieur Walter had bought): Guillemet, Harpignies, Guillaumet, Gervex, Bastien-Lepage, Jean-Paul Laurens, Vendée, Jean Beraud, Lambert, Detaille, Lenoir.
Cindy wrote: "Through chapter 7 I have been trying to figure out if he is in love with Clotilde. I agree I don't think Duroy is capable of love. The characters do seem flat, is it because none of them have any..."Good observations. I don't see either morals or much character in the characters. They are flat and, as you say, largely uninteresting as characters. The situations are mildly interesting, and as I said earlier I thought the death scene was very well written, but overall I agree with you, and if things don't improve soon will probably skip the rest of the book and read something more rewarding. But let's hope it does improve.
Everyman wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Through chapter 7 I have been trying to figure out if he is in love with Clotilde. I agree I don't think Duroy is capable of love. The characters do seem flat, is it because none o..."I have to admit I have an opposite reaction to the characters. Perhaps because I have a tendency to be drawn to the "scoundrels" in the book I read. I find their like of morality makes them interesting or at least amusing. While I don't necessarily agree with all of their choices and the things they do, I find their exploits to be entertaining.
And I do rather admire Madam Forestier. I find her to be quite a compelling woman. I see her as a woman who is very strong and independent living in a male driven world in which women have very few opportunities. So she does what she must to make her way in the world and live her own life the way she wants to live it.
#20 Bonne: It is apt that you have picked up on the fictional paintings and (real) artists mentioned in Bel Ami. Maupassant was very friendly with Manet and a number of other Impressionists and Renoir painted him on a boat on the Seine (see Background info). Manet painted a series of eleven railway scenes at the then newly opened St Lazare station, where our protaganist Duroy was a 'lowly railway clerk' . Whilst Manet was painting energetic railway scenes Caillebotte was painting dramatic perspectives of the streets around the station described in Bel Ami, some of which were in the Quartier de l'Europe which had recently been developed by Baron Hausmann as part of the rebuilding of Paris. This featured the wide Boulevards we now know and love so well but which were, in fact, meant to deter the building of the sort of barricades used by rebels in the July uprising of 1832 - which some of you may have seen featured in the play/film of Les Miserables. I find it interesting that although Maupassant spent a great deal of time with the Impressionists, his own writing is described as realist. Vague outlines and misty obfuscation were not for him, he preferred to tell it how it was, with all the unsavoury details. He was more of a Toulouse-Lautrec than a Manet and certainly not a Monet (whom he regularly visited upstream of Paris in his yacht).
#22 Silver: I agree. Maupassant is no genteel Jane Austen but is a man in a man's world rather as Hemingway was. He gives us the Paris environs and its people as they were leading up to Le Belle Epoque and typified by the Folies Bergere. We may not like Duroy or his world but it is real and is what made Paris the vibrant bohemian city it still is today.
Cindy wrote: "Through chapter 7 I have been trying to figure out if he is in love with Clotilde. I agree I don't think Duroy is capable of love. The characters do seem flat, is it because none of them have any..."If you're finding the characters flat and their actions puzzling, as I did, try a different translation. I switched recently, and it makes all difference. I'm really enjoying the book now, and have gone back to reread. It's a completely different book.
Mod
Harrison, I've been reading one of the better translations from the beginning, and do find the characters flat. I'm not sure why. The descriptions though are beautifully written.
Deborah wrote: "Harrison wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Through chapter 7 I have been trying to figure out if he is in love with Clotilde. I agree I don't think Duroy is capable of love. The characters do seem flat, is ..."Well, you definitely can't say they're likeable!
Do any of you have any insight into the translation of Durand's nickname as "Pretty Boy"? It seems a bit off to me, but my French is rusty.
Silver#22: Mme Forestier is independent because she is a business woman with a lover but Clothilde comes across as independent too in the way she rented a room for their affair.
Harrison wrote: "Do any of you have any insight into the translation of Durand's nickname as "Pretty Boy"? It seems a bit off to me, but my French is rusty."I think it might be from dur which means hard or callous, which is a description of his character.
Mod
The intro in my copy indicates it would be more appropriate to translate it as good friend. However, it makes sense to me that the word pretty would have been the nickname given to Duroy.
MadgeUK wrote: "Harrison wrote: "Do any of you have any insight into the translation of Durand's nickname as "Pretty Boy"? It seems a bit off to me, but my French is rusty."I think it might be from dur which ..."
Madge, I was referring to Bel Ami.
"Bel-Ami" could be a play on words, in French. If it can mean or imply all these things... Beautiful friend / Handsome man / Good friend / Boyfriend / Pretty boy / Scoundrel
Harrison wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Harrison wrote: "Do any of you have any insight into the translation of Durand's nickname as "Pretty Boy"? It seems a bit off to me, but my French is rusty."I think it might be fr..."
In my version it is translated as Beautiful Friend which seems apt considering how charming he comes across to those he meets, particularly the women who all seem drawn to him.
Everyman wrote: "...I don't see either morals or much character in the characters. They are flat and, as you say, largely uninteresting as characters."After reading this thread I've been contemplating why I like the book so far. Although the characters are a little flat I can still empathize with their thoughts and wishes. Also there are many, not grace notes, but little observations and impressions that I enjoy...
* The difference between writing on whatever subject you like vs. being assigned an article = the difference between driving your own carriage in Bois de Bolougne vs. doing the same as a cabby
* Dinner conversation about Parisian women being more “moral” because of fear of secrets getting out, not because they actually care about morality. “They’d have a good time if they were sure there’d be no scandals. Mon Dieu! Poor old husbands!”
* Madame de Marelle: wears attractive refined clothing, but neglects the place where she lives. How she thinks it’s fun to dress “down” and hit the working-class bars
* The Folies-Bergere scene with Rachel; Madame de Marelle livid once she figures out that Duroy had spent her money on prostitutes… now both women pissed at him and he can’t sleep with either one
* The interludes of French philosophy and bleak pessimism… odes to death, futility of religion, etc.
* How Duroy remembers his parents fondly, imagines them in their hut, the cat watching them sipping soup from wooden spoons
Great summary Bonne, showing that there are many strands to this novel if you don't let yourself be put off by the shocking bits. It is an honest account of French bohemian life in the Belle Epoque, not respectable old London or Boston:)
We're only halfway through so there's plenty of time for him to become a really bad guy, but IMO so far he hasn't done anything unconscionably wicked. Consensual sex with prostitutes, ditto with married woman, borrows money on credit, dreams of wealth and success in society, writes articles with quotes from people he didn't actually interview. What else? He's not like the people in Dangerous Liaisons who played with people's lives and feelings, for no better reason than the fun of it. (not yet?)
Mod
After reading this thread I've been contempl..."
Bonnie, you've hit on one of the major themes - opposites.
I don't really like the book so far, but chapter 8 was a beautiful perspective on life and death. How many of us have had to gather at a loved ones bedside and wait for that final breath? It is heartbreaking. Then Duroy starts thinking about his relationship with Mme Forestier. Did anyone think that was just wrong at the wrong time. The end of the chapter seemed ghastly, maybe I read too many ghost stories.
Mod
I thought it was very odd timing to think of a relationship literally standing next to the dead husband.
It was a good way to show how callous and unprincipled he was though.
Mod
Absolutely effective.
Bonnie wrote: "We're only halfway through so there's plenty of time for him to become a really bad guy, but IMO so far he hasn't done anything unconscionably wicked."Well, I agree with that. As long as one doesn't think using one's charms to take advantage of vulnerable women isn't wicked.
But your comment earlier about "Parisian women being more “moral” because of fear of secrets getting out, not because they actually care about morality. “They’d have a good time if they were sure there’d be no scandals. Mon Dieu! Poor old husbands!” may not show wickedness, but it certainly shows disrespect for the institution of marriage and the feelings of the husbands.
Granted, the women are as responsible as he is for their straying and being willing to engage in behaviors that they wouldn't want their husbands to know about. I'm not sure I would call Duroy immoral, but I would certainly call him amoral.
MadgeUK wrote: "It was a good way to show how callous and unprincipled he was though."I saw it quite differently from that. Neither callous nor unprincipled.
Everyman wrote:Well, I agree with that. As long as one doesn't think using one's charms to take advantage of vulnerable women isn't wicked. ."
I do not agree with viewing the women as "vulnerable" but I think they know what they are doing just as much as Duroy himself. I don't see the women as being victims of Duroy. But rather it seems to me that the women are in fact the seducers and Duroy simply acts upon the opportunity which is presented to him.
That isn't to excuse Duroy he is just a culpable and responsible as the women. But I don't see him as taking advantage of the women.
Silver: I think the women are more vulnerable because their reputations are at risk whereas a Frenchman's reputation is enhanced by affairs. Duroy admits that his ambition is to get wealthy via seducing rich women so to that extent I see him as callous and uncaring of their reputations, which were important then. True the women were 'up for it' but in that sort of society gentlemen were expected to guard the reputations/honour of their womenfolk even when they were behaving badly, mainly because they were seen as weak if they couldn't control them.
MadgeUK wrote: "Silver: I think the women are more vulnerable because their reputations are at risk whereas a Frenchman's reputation is enhanced by affairs. Duroy admits that his ambition is to get wealthy via sed..."It is true that the women have more to lose if they are caught than the men do, but I see the women as going into with eyes wide open fully knowing the risks in which they are incurring.
Clo invites Duroy to dine with her and her husband, this displays I think an arrogance and a certainty that she will not be caught, and perhaps also that maybe she enjoys the risk. She encourage Duroy to become friends with her husband, in that way it does all seem to be a game for her which she enjoys playing.
True and I think the risk is part of the thrill they are seeking. Society women led boring, hidebound lives and affairs were one way of kicking the traces. Also, many marriages of the rich were semi-arranged so women did not necessarily love their husbands. Adultery was a way of finding love and compatability for both sexes.
Silver: I think the women are more vulnerable because their reputations are at risk whereas a Frenchman's reputation is enhanced by affairs. Duroy admits that his ambition is to get..."Interestingly, Maupassant's own mother (Laure Le Poittevin) divorced her husband due to his frequent escapades with other women. It seems like she was a very independent character. Divorce was a quite a risky business during these times, as it wasn't common in society. But she came from a wealthy family and had some important friends as well, so I guess that it was possible to do with such a background.
I thought the fact that Duroy was making his move on Madame Forestiere right as her husband died was totally in character for him. He only went to ingratiate himself with her, and once he realized the situation was unpleasant, he wanted to come up with a good excuse to leave again. He has moments when you think he might be redeeming himself, but then he goes back to his self-centered ways. He reminds me of a toddler or young child since he is rather impulsive and doesn't understand the concept of delayed gratification. He is more amusing than anything, so I'm curious to see if he grows up at all as the novel continues.I am glad that Madame Forestiere told him about her independent ways. I don't know if it's something that Duroy could handle or not. I think he would be offended if she were seeing other men, but on the other hand, I don't think he would have a problem living off her and her money.
Duroy is on again, off again with Clo. He seems to have no conscience in befriending her husband and spending time with them.
Monsier Forestier succumbs to his tuberculous. Duroy mentions the possibility of future marriage. I must admit to cheering Madame Forrestier on when she described how she stays independent within marriage.
A few questions to get our thought processes started. Again, the discussion is open and the questions can be used or not.
1. Why does Duroy feel he belongs to high society when it appears his upbringing is more lowly?
2. What motivates Duroy to make his life choices? Are they reasonable ones? Why is he chronically dissatisfied with his life?
3. What do you like or dislike about the characters?
4. In Chapter 8, Duroy seems to define love as the only source of true happiness, and the definition appears to be "holding a woman in your arms". Is he searching for love or something else?
5. If Duroy marries Madame Forestier, do you think he can handle her independence? Why or why not?
I won't be posting my perceptions until later in the discussion.