Is There An Author You'd Like To See Try Another Genre? (3/5/23)

[Marc]

A comedy by Cormac McCarthy? A sci-fi opera by Maggie Nelson? Is there an author you'd like to see try their hand at a genre they're not known for? Which author and what genre would you like to see happen?

[Alwynne]

Fascinating question, in my usual curmudgeonly way my immediate reaction was that I wish literary fiction writers would stop cannibalising other genres, Ishiguro and Never Let Me Go is a prime example. I never think authors who do this do it very well - with the exception of someone like Colson Whitehead who seems adept at working across a range of genre conventions - and I sometimes think they get credit simply because their main audiences aren't familiar with genre fiction in general, so think authors are producing something ground-breaking when they're really not.

[Marc]

Alwynne wrote: "Fascinating question, in my usual curmudgeonly way my immediate reaction was that I wish literary fiction writers would stop cannibalising other genres, Ishiguro and Never Let Me Go is ..."

This would have been a more entertaining question if I had asked which writers you'd like to stop doing this! I think the question probably works most effectively for writers we might see as distanced or way outside a certain genre. I did not in the least appreciate Atwood's foray into comic books/graphic novels.

I think I might like to try a horror novel by Don DeLillo. Maybe a political thriller by NK Jemisin. A zombie novel by Nikki Giovanni...

[Whitney]

Marc wrote:

I think I might like to try a horror novel by Don DeLillo.
White Noise

Maybe a political thriller by NK Jemisin.
The City We Became

A zombie novel by Nikki Giovanni.
You got me there.

Okay, I may be stretching lines a wee bit. But, seriously. I think genre lines are so fluid these days that few writers feel constricted by those boundaries. And those that are still dismissive of genre works not being "literary" enough probably fall into Alwynne's category of those who wouldn't do it well anyway (I actually think Ishiguro does it well, but he's certainly not dismissive of genre. Discussion for another time, I venture.)

I also think of writers like Iain Banks, who is Iain M. Banks when he's writing science fiction.

[Lark]

Alwynne, you're so right. I think I would have picked Ishiguro's attempt at fantasy, The Buried Giant, as the greater sin on his part, though.

McSweeney's Enchanted Chamber of Astonishing Stories really drove home to me that most literary fiction writers really don't know how to write a good rousing sci-fi/fantastic tale. This was an anthology where Michael Chabon asked a bunch of very well known literary writers to write an amazing tale--they were all terrible!

[Alwynne]

Lark wrote: "Alwynne, you're so right. I think I would have picked Ishiguro's attempt at fantasy, The Buried Giant, as the greater sin on his part, though.

[book:McSweeney's Enchanted Chamber o..."

I couldn't get past page two of The Buried Giant, so didn't feel fair to mention it!

[Marc]

Whitney, I've only read two DeLillo's and White Noise was one (which I loved)! The Jemisin is on my shelves at home awaiting my attention. I'll just have to await the Giovanni.

David Mitchell always seemed like someone who could readily adopt almost any genre (like effectively trying on a costume of sorts), but he's sort of the opposite of what we're talking about.

No one wants to see an Ottessa Moshfegh children's book, eh?

[Whitney]

Marc wrote: "No one wants to see an Ottessa Moshfegh children's book, eh?."

Wait, you mean Lapvona isn't a children's book? Boy, talk about false advertising.

A comedy by Cormac McCarthy?
Suttree

David Mitchell always seemed like someone who could readily adopt almost any genre (like effectively trying on a costume of sorts), but he's sort of the opposite of what we're talking about.

I put Mitchell in the same category as Chabon, Ishiguro, and Letham. So-called 'literary' writers who freely play in the genre sandbox. I suppose Atwood belongs in that group, but her disdain for genre usually means those elements are often the weakest part of her books.

[Joy D]

I can think of the opposite - one who does it well:
Michel Faber

[Bill]

I'll probably disagree with everyone in this thread. (You don't know curmudgeon until you've met me.)

I'm not a fan of genre boxes. I prefer to talk about genre conventions. I can list a number of horror, sci-fi, YA etc conventions that I have no patience for these days.

When I read my favorite authors, I find it almost irrelevant to ask "is this sci-fi, or...?" I've read (say) Brian Evenson's 2-page "Altman's Tongue" many times, but it's about the jaundiced reasoning, the delirium, and the irresistible narrator's voice that just sweeps you along, not the actual events (horror genre or whatever).

I also liked "Never Let Me Go".

[Tracy]

It might be funny to see a heaving bosom style romance from John Waters.

Or a steampunk adventure from Elif Shafak.

[Alwynne]

Bill wrote: "I'll probably disagree with everyone in this thread. (You don't know curmudgeon until you've met me.)

I'm not a fan of genre boxes. I prefer to talk about genre conventions. I can list a number of..."

More than happy to be out-curmudgeoned, so will immediately yield the space! I read the Ishiguro not long after Nancy Farmer's The House of the Scorpion and found the Farmer a lot more convincing.

[Emmeline]

Alwynne wrote: "Bill wrote: "I'll probably disagree with everyone in this thread. (You don't know curmudgeon until you've met me.)

I'm not a fan of genre boxes. I prefer to talk about genre conventions. I can lis..."

Oh no, must we disagree? ;-)

I liked both Never Let Me Go and The Buried Giant (bar the stilted dialogue). I love when literary fiction people steal from genre... because what annoys me about genre is usually its lack of literary markers. I'm the target audience, I guess.

[Emmeline]

To answer the original question, I'd like Frances Hardinge to ditch YA and write... literary. She's such a great writer and those contrived one-twist...then-another-twist...then-a-BIG-twist plots in the YA fantasy genre drive me nuts.

[Alwynne]

Emily wrote: "To answer the original question, I'd like Frances Hardinge to ditch YA and write... literary. She's such a great writer and those contrived one-twist...then-another-twist...then-a-B..."

I think she'd make a great historical fiction writer, I loved her underlying depiction of post-WW1 England in Cuckoo Song

[Emmeline]

Alwynne wrote: "Emily wrote: "To answer the original question, I'd like Frances Hardinge to ditch YA and write... literary. She's such a great writer and those contrived one-twist...then-another-tw..."

Exactly. That book had so much going for it until it hit the twist tunnel at the end.

[Whitney]

I know this isn't a discussion on Ishiguro, so I'm going to hide my appreciations of Never Let Me Go as well as The Buried Giant behind spoiler tags so they can be ignored at will.

(view spoiler)[
Never Let Me Go was, imho, a very realistic and insightful look at the issues raised. The characters weren't heroes and rebels who rose up and triumphed against their condition. Like many second class citizens, they internalized their oppression, tried to help themselves by working within the system, and finally took solace in their role. Tommy's "I'm good at this" was the ultimate in surrender to his lot in life, compared to his rages against the barely understood injustice when he was a child. The way society casually dehumanized them because it benefited the (presumably more affluent) was also sadly realistic.

This is the difference between good and bad genre. Unrealistically heroic characters, danger and defiance, and outsiders who rage against the injustice and rectify an evil system.

I can't speak to the accuracy of the language in the Buried Giant, but many archaic languages do sound stilted to modern ears. Ishiguro also said he was trying to use a language to conceal rather than grope after larger points, which is in keeping with the themes. I've never read a novel that better explores the benefits and harms of hiding or denying past history, both personal and political. (hide spoiler)]

[Alwynne]

Whitney wrote: "I know this isn't a discussion on Ishiguro, so I'm going to hide my appreciations of Never Let Me Go as well as The Buried Giant behind spoiler tags so they can be ignored at will.


Never Let Me ..."

Thanks Whitney and it's great that you're so passionate about these novels but not sure how this then opens up a discussion between those who didn't and those who did? I qualified my comments with 'I never think' making it clear my criteria were subjective rather than objective, you similarly qualified your comments. I fully accept that my subjective response and the subjective response of others will differ, I also recognise the fact that many people like, even admire, Ishiguro's work including those two novels. But I just don't like his work, and I particularly dislike those examples of it.

[Alwynne]

Emily wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Bill wrote: "I'll probably disagree with everyone in this thread. (You don't know curmudgeon until you've met me.)

I'm not a fan of genre boxes. I prefer to talk about genre conven..."

I think part of my issue relates to readership and questions of cultural value. There seem to be a lot of people who read literary fiction who won't touch work categorised as genre fiction, and that divide is reflected in marketing strategies, layout of bookshops etc And I get peeved when writers who are labelled as literary i.e. serious, culturally significant etc are praised for stories, use of conventions, themes, that have been extensively deployed and - I often think - handled far more persuasively by writers who are associated with genre fiction who don't tend to get the same kind of recognition as literary ones, so not likely for example to be shortlisted for the more prestigious fiction awards. Emily St. John Mandel is another I find annoying for these kinds of reasons.

[Bill]

Alwynne wrote: "I think part of my issue relates to readership and questions of cultural value. There seem to be a lot of people who read literary fiction who won't touch work categorised as genre fiction..."

I agree. I read a lot of dark fiction that is often marketed as horror. But I dislike a lot of it, and including some of the holy cows of literary horror. (It's kind of ironic that I'm a moderator in the Literary Hour group.)

I try to limit my opinions to specific books and authors.

[Alwynne]

Bill wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I think part of my issue relates to readership and questions of cultural value. There seem to be a lot of people who read literary fiction who won't touch work categorised as genre ..."

I'm probably being far too dismissive, I read a lot of ARCs last year by literary authors writing what was essentially, speculative fiction and found the experience profoundly dispiriting, titles like The Candy House, Sea of Tranquility and, particular low, The Men.

[Bill]

Whitney wrote: "I know this isn't a discussion on Ishiguro, so I'm going to hide my appreciations of Never Let Me Go as well as The Buried Giant behind spoiler tags so they can be ignored at will."

Totally agree with Whitney's comments on Never Let Me Go. I read almost no science fiction these days, because I come across very little that's like that. (And I used to read mostly science fiction in my youth.) The last was probably Max Barry's Providence, which had some great ideas but was frustratingly bloated with sci-fi conventions.

(Some sci-fi ish work that I love: some James Tiptree, early Samuel Delany and the late Hermit of Houston, Dean Paschal...)

[Emmeline]

Alwynne wrote: "I read a lot of ARCs last year by literary authors writing what was essentially, speculative fiction and found the experience profoundly dispiriting, titles like The Candy House, Sea of Tranquility and, particular low, The Men. "

I didn't read any of those, but avoided them as they sounded very iffy. Totally get where you're coming from on that. However I'm glad literary writers are feeling they can experiment with genre as I've never been a fan of the "literary must be realist" idea.

My boss and I had a big debate about The Buried Giant. I enjoyed it, he just couldn't get past the fact that there was a dragon. "I can't do dragons." I don't get how someone can watch The Walking Dead for a gazillion seasons but be unable to handle a half-metaphorical dragon, but hey. So I don't really feel like literary writers are necessarily praised for these kinds of experiments. If anything, they get complaints from the literary readers for the dragons, and abuse from the genre writers for not having the fantasy chops.