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Arcanum 17
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Arcanum 17 by Andre Breton - Mar BOTM
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Hey everyone, welcome to the Arcanum 17 BOTM! I really enjoyed it when I read it in 2015 (only about a year after I started the list), so I'm curious to see what other people think of it.
Here is some background and pre-questions to get us started:
novel summary (from Green Integer):
Considered radical at the time, today Breton's ideas seem almost prescient, yet breathtaking in their passionate underlying belief in the indestructibility of life and the freedom of the human spirit. André Breton wrote Arcanum 17 during a trip to the Gaspé Peninsula in Quebec in the months after D-Day in 1944, when the Allied troops were liberating Occupied Europe.
Using the huge Percé Rock—its impermanence, its slow-motion crumbling, its singular beauty—as his central metaphor, Breton considers issues of love and loss, aggression and war, pacifism, feminism and the occult, in a book that is part prose and part poetry, part reality and part dream.
Author Bio (From The Art Story) :
André Breton was an original member of the Dada group who went on to start and lead the Surrealist movement in 1924. In New York, Breton and his colleagues curated Surrealist exhibitions that introduced ideas of automatism and intuitive art making to the first Abstract Expressionists. He worked in various creative media, focusing on collage and printmaking as well as authoring several books. Breton innovated ways in which text and image could be united through chance association to create new, poetic word-image combinations. His ideas about accessing the unconscious and using symbols for self-expression served as a fundamental conceptual building block for New York artists in the 1940s.
more extensive biography here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poet...
Pre-Questions:
1) Breton has one other work on the list- Nadja . Have you read this one? If so, what did you think of it? Have you read any of his work outside the list? Were you even familiar with him before this botm?
2) This work is part of the Surrealist movement, and Breton was also associated with the Dada movement specifically. What other surrealist authors/artists are you familiar with? What is your understanding of the genre/ do you enjoy it?
Questions:1) The summary above mentions his use of Percé Rock and "its impermanence, its slow-motion crumbling, its singular beauty—as his central metaphor". Expand on this: what is the central metaphor and some of the specific events and deeper ideas he explores with it?
2) Arcanum 17 refers to a tarot card (the occult and dreamlike is a theme of this book). Look it up and consider: how does this card also represent some of the themes and content of the book?
3) As also mentioned above, this book was published during the months after D-Day in 1944, when the Allied troops were liberating Occupied Europe. How do you think this historical context informs the tone, themes, and events of the book?
4) Feminism is also an important theme pervading the novel. I read once that Breton could be considered 'a more radical male feminist in that he thought women were superior to men'. Discuss Breton's take on on feminism in the book and why he might have developed the position he did.
5) What did you make of the protagonists love for the tragic Elisa Bindhoff?
6) How did you experience the unconventional structure of this book? Did you enjoy it or not? did you think it assisted in conveying the book's ideas or does it hinder it?
7) What are some of the surrealist elements of the book, what what did you think of them?
8) And, finally, what did you think of the book? Did it earn it's place on the list for you?
Discuss!
6) How did you experience the unconventional structure of this book? Did you enjoy it or not? did you think it assisted in conveying the book's ideas or does it hinder it?His style suggested to me a personal crisis. I talk about this more in my review but basically I feel like he is so overwrought by the urgency of what is happening in France that he has abandoned any guidelines to his writing. This is interesting to observe since he is obviously a master of language.
7) What are some of the surrealist elements of the book, what what did you think of them?
Some of his metaphor clusters verge on hallucinogenic.
Mod
Thank you John Dishwasher for your additional thought. I am sorry that I will not be able to read this one.
I'm reading slowly in French (it was much cheaper than sourcing a copy in English). Vocabulary is not a problem with a dictionary on my phone alongside the printed book (although Breton does use some words that aren't in the dictionary) but sometimes I struggle to make sense of the sentences even when I know all the words. This makes it all seem a little surreal. I also hadn't heard of the mythical creature Melusine and had to look her up. I enjoy the challenge of all this, though.Regarding feminism, Breton's idea seems to be that if women ruled the world, there would be no war. It's a nice idea, but I don't agree, although I wish I could. I think the internet has shown how brutal people of both/all genders can be. Also, when I was a young adult we had a female prime minister in the UK who did not hesitate to send warships to fight Argentina. So I grew up with the more pessimistic view that war is something that humans, women as well as men, will always engage in.
John Dishwasher wrote: "6) How did you experience the unconventional structure of this book? Did you enjoy it or not? did you think it assisted in conveying the book's ideas or does it hinder it?His style suggested to m..."
I think that is a great way of interpreting it: and understandable given the context. I also agree that it does make it an interesting read, rather than subtracting from it, especially since his state of mind at the time is an element that helps us understand the context of the work.
Rosemary wrote: "Regarding feminism, Breton's idea seems to be that if women ruled the world, there would be no war. It's a nice idea, but I don't agree, although I wish I could. I think the internet has shown how brutal people of both/all genders can be. Also, when I was a young adult we had a female prime minister in the UK who did not hesitate to send warships to fight Argentina.""
I've got to agree with you there, Rosemary. While I like some of Breton's rhetoric, other parts of it I can't get on board with. And, with this idea specifically, it almost comes back to this "sweet angel of the hearth" mythos that is ironically often upheld by patriarchy. Also good specific callout of Margaret Thatcher lol. I've heard some people try to 'gotcha' progressive feminists before by saying 'well if you believe in feminism you have to respect Margaret Thatcher" ...like, no you don't. To me, feminism is about believing in uplifting the status and quality of life for women in general, and an individual woman in power can absolutely work against that (especially via war-mongering or imposing austerity on the already poor).
Amanda wrote: "While I like some of Breton's rhetoric, other parts of it I can't get on board with. And, with this idea specifically, it almost comes back to this "sweet angel of the hearth" mythos that is ironically often upheld by patriarchy. "Yes, I completely agree!
Pre-Questions:Pre-Questions:
1) I have never read anything by Breton but was aware of him because of his reputation as part of the dada and surrealist movement. I am certainly aware of his mission to subvert the restrictions and oppressions of society by attacking some of the common assumptions of the arts world, such as art needed to be beautiful or uplifting or even insightful.
2) Again, my knowledge about the Dadaist and Surrealist movements come from the arts and not literature and I have not read any of the famous names in literature of these movements. I do know a great deal about the filmmakers of these movements however including ManRay, Marcel Duchamp, Alexander Calder, Fernand Léger and Hans Richter. They broke wide open the concept that film had to be narrative and did some very interesting and "extreme" experimental work during their time.
5) What did you make of the protagonist's love for the tragic Elisa Bindhoff? Possibly a little too besotted, but they did stay together for the rest of his life, so there must have been something real there.
I did wonder what she thought about what he wrote about death, loss, and the sea, and the way it related to the death of her daughter, which had happened in 1943, the same year that he and Elisa met, and the year before the book was written. I felt he was making an effort to avoid that section being all about him, but at the same time, when a writer writes about another person's real tragedy, they are always appropriating or exploiting it to some extent, just in the act of putting it into their own words.
6) How did you experience the unconventional structure of this book? Did you enjoy it or not? did you think it assisted in conveying the book's ideas or does it hinder it?
I did appreciate the structure, partly because it divided the book into many short episodes, which helped me to relax with the ideas and not rush.
7) What are some of the surrealist elements of the book, what what did you think of them?
I think those would be some of the parts that I didn't understand. After a while this didn't bother me. I just read them without struggling. That was when I started enjoying it and looking forward to picking it up next time. (I never read more than 10-12 pages at one time.)
8) And, finally, what did you think of the book? Did it earn it's place on the list for you?
I did appreciate it, although I was glad it was short!
It's one of several occasions when the list includes books that (IMO) aren't novels. I don't think the editors should have deviated from that criterion if they weren't going to include all deserving examples of other types of prose. But except for not being a novel, I think it deserves its place. It's so lyrical and unusual, and the list claims to be all about groundbreaking books.
1) Breton discusses the flow of time and allows us to see a rock, which is often a metaphor for permanence, as something that is actually changing over time. Breton believed in the flow of things, particularly consciousness. He also sees mythology in the rock and speaks to nature as a way of recharging the mind. 2) The tarot card depicts a woman, or a mythological goddess, pouring the life streams into the water and onto the land. The woman represents change, hope, reseeding, and often is expressed as a star or the planet Venus. Breton speaks to the power of women, the concept of needing to keep hope alive through revolution and the struggle for liberty.
3) Breton was horrified at the amount of violence that was taking place in Europe. He had worked with shellshocked men during WWI and he probably knew what the violence was doing to individual minds and to the collective mind of the intellectual community. He hoped that out of this carnage there could be found a way to keep hope alive by keeping liberty alive. He stressed that hope and liberty could only be keep alive through a continual flow of resistance or continual investigation which would work against the need of a traumatized culture to solidify into a stable unchanging thing. He felt that this stabilization would be very dangerous if it promoted specific political structures (nationalism, but he doesn't use this word) and ultimately would only lead to more war.
4) He does come right out and writes that women were superior. This had to have been radical at the time of the writing. However, he drapes his superior women in mythological constructs, gives her super-human qualities and in many ways does the concept of practical equality little good in this writing. However, he also writes of his love of Elisa which sometimes reflected something direct and real rather than mythical and at other times seemed to speak only to "glow in the eyes" and her relationship to Melusina, the half snake woman.
5) They shared a life that included death, loss and suffering and he spoke to the need to keep a balance so they enjoyed their love but also where this death, loss and suffering was not ignored but included in their life.
6) I found it easier to read than I thought, and generally easier to read than I find much stream of consciousness although I did have to read it in small chunks. It wasn't written in the form of an essay but there were specific themes and arguments that were essay like. I would guess that I was not able to grasp even half of the literary and artistic associations, nor most of the mythological or philosophical ones, but I still felt as if I got some parts of what he was writing about.
7) Surrealism was a movement born out of an earlier time in the 20th century and spoke to the need to break away from the rational and constricting toward the unconscious and dreams. This work reflects the loose combination of multiple themes and Breton clearly works to help the reader to liberate thought processes. The "rock" is crumbling rather than permanent. The female is superior. The word "resistance" has become specifically about being anti-fascist and needs to be made broader again to stand against any limitations. Dream imagery sits right next to actual events and hold their own.
8) And, finally, what did you think of the book? Did it earn it's place on the list for you?
Like Rosemary, I wondered why exactly this book was included. I suspect because it stands on its own as a full work although it has some of the nature of a collection of essays. I also think it probably influenced other writers who by reading this could learn that the juxtaposition of radically different imagery could still "work".
Pre-questions:I knew the name Breton from Dadaism, but knew little of him or his writing
I am familiar with the Surrealist movement, but not the concept of automatic writing, and have read none of their literature.
1. I loved the metaphor of the rock as a symbol of permanence and something that people found meaningful by comparing its form to other things, but that in reality it was slowly changing like everything else in the universe.
2. I have less patience with mysticism, but the image of the woman pouring out largess from two urns was obvious.
3. The time in which it was written was everything. There was a lot of contemplation about the nature of humankind, the nature of war and the evil of nationalism
4. He stated that women were superior to men and if they were given the opportunity to be in charge there would be no more wars. A lovely idea but one that has not proven so as yet. New Zealand's last Prime Minister preached kindness and she was hounded out of office by right wing demogogery. His idea of womankind was rather steeped in mysticism and unrealistic.
5. I gathered that he was absolutely besotted by her, but apart from the look of her eyes I am mystified (pun intended) why.
6. I was intrigued by the structure and kept thinking this is a collection of essays - not a novel - which was not an original idea apparently!
7. I spent a great deal of time researching all his allusions (I read an Open Library version) and then discovered the references at the end. He made me feel ignorant about his cultural references and I am unsure which were surrealist elements.
8. It was more like a prose poem and some of it was quite sublime but I do not pretend to understand more than a fraction of what he was trying to say, so I do not feel that I can judge.
Amanda hosting.