Seven Types of Ambiguity - Part Four

[Sarah]

For this week we have the perspective of Dennis/Mitch... sort of. Let the party begin!

[Sarah]

I say this is only sort of the perspective of Dennis/Mitch because it was actually more of a dialogue between the psychiatrist and Dennis than Dennis's POV. We never get to see what's going on in his head. It was strange, but I also thought it was the perfect mid-section of the book.

The thing that stands out the most to me in this section is Dennis's injuries at the corporate retreat. This is a truly awful situation that I can't even imagine happening. And then to top it off, he has that horrible wife. When you're going through a life changing disability, having someone tell you that you're inconveniencing them is a terrible thing to go through. And what else does Patricia do? She ruins the marriage of the one woman who is willing to help him! She's an awful person, in my opinion. Your whole perception of yourself and the world changes - you need help or at least acceptance. I like it that eventually Angelique gives him both. He eventually feels like less of a freak. I had helped her, helped her help someone she loved in a way that excluded me from being loved by her in that same way. And I'll be damned, Alex, if I was not more alive inside her embrace in front of all those people than I had ever been before. This is a touching moment for me.

Regarding his injuries. Why was there this continue insistence that Joe was responsible for them? Even despite the photo evidence. He says Joe Geraghty is the reason I'm seeing you. Forget gambling, forget my wife And who in their right mind climbs 13 feet up a ladder and rope and lets go, expecting someone to catch them? I did a variation of this in high school, but it was only about four feet off the ground. Only peer pressure and a need to not look like a coward could get someone up there. It's interesting that Alex points out his own culpability. He's a physicist, he knew the design was flawed, so why did he go up there?

Some other things at the retreat are a bit strange too. When they're leaning forward with their heads touching telling their secrets. This gives me the heebie jeebies. It was interesting, when Pamela started to cry, his description Nearby groups stopped to listen to her. We were embarrassed. Our heads were still touching. Does that last addition seem odd to anyone? Why was it important to point out that their heads were still touching?

The continued emphasis on having to "pay for it" is really bothering me. As long as prostitution is legal, what does it actually matter? It seems very practical to me.

At the corporate retreat when Joe seduces Helen to get his phone back, did anyone else feel that he was only having sex with her because Mitch could hear them?

The counting cards section was interesting. It was especially interesting to me that it covered so many pages. Why was it necessary to explain this in such depth? And it was very detailed. Even with this knowledge and help, Angelique still gets pulled into the idea of luck being a factor. The roulette thing is definitely luck, but the cards were not. I'm really hoping we get to hear what happened to Angelique because I'm concerned about her. Especially since she left the money behind. What will Alex do in this case? He obviously would want to get the money to Simon but how is he going to do it? Oh, and was anyone else absolutely NOT surprised that the cop didn't follow through on helping her? She was crazy to even think he would. Especially since she felt he was the junior partner. Anyway, I'm worried about her. All roads seem to lead to her so far though, so I'm sure we'll hear of her again.

I think it's interesting that Dennis thinks that Joe took him to the brothel. They both remember it without any personal responsibility. I tend to believe Dennis because he embellishes less on the whole story. On the other hand, he thinks Joe is responsible for an awful lot in his life, so he has no reason to remember it otherwise. His contempt for Joe is interesting He was always talking about it like a schoolboy, that and his car. It was like he never grew up. He apparently had this quasi-supermodel of a wife, and yet he still had to sleep around. It was he who first took me to a brothel, you know. He also mentions at some point how ridiculous he feels the car is. I'm not sure what he feels is so bad about it. I think he says it's impractical or something like that.

I see that although this is a few months after the abduction, Joe still thinks Anna was involved with Simon. This is interesting.

I really shouldn't be surprised that Joe sneaks into his hospital room to cry over his own problems, but I was still pretty appalled. Especially since Mitch is his "friend".

Other interesting things:

Recently I've been crying in a manner and with a frequency that is not consistent with being a functioning adult male.

I got a degree in science and then went on to do a Ph.D. in theoretical physics. I was seduced by the elegance of physics, by it's generality and its economy of assumption. Stupidly, I also thought it would make me eminently employable.

Alex sure does take a sudden interest in Dennis once he brings Joe up. He keeps trying to redirect Dennis's attention in that direction. Like he's trying to ferret out info to help Simon.

[Ami]

Sarah wrote: "I say this is only sort of the perspective of Dennis/Mitch because it was actually more of a dialogue between the psychiatrist and Dennis than Dennis's POV. We never get to see what's going on in ..."

Why was it necessary to explain this in such depth? And it was very detailed. Even with this knowledge and help, Angelique still gets pulled into the idea of luck being a factor. The counting cards section was interesting. It was especially interesting to me that it covered so many pages... ... ... I say this is only sort of the perspective of Dennis/Mitch because it was actually more of a dialogue between the psychiatrist and Dennis than Dennis's POV. We never get to see what's going on in his head...
It was a long section discussing, in depth, the time and patience it took Mitch to teach Angelique how to count cards. It's also a reflection on the care he took to explain the HMO venture to Joe. In the attempt to help both Angelique and Joe, these two were given an opportunity by Mitch to better their circumstances. They were each asked to do one thing and according to Mitch, they both failed...In his eyes. Angelique, apparently didn't learn a damn thing from Mitch; essentially, disregarding everything said about "luck." The pages and pages dedicated to counting cards, was indicative of the time he expended, explaining in great detail, with Angelique. Through the conversation between Dr. Klima and Dennis/Mitch, we were able to see the most important aspect of Dennis...How irrelevant he sees himself as, and how irrelevant he is to these people he attempts to helps. I found his narrative to be the most useless, thus far, I'm not sure how he fits into the plot? If anything, there seems to be this expanding theme of insecure/obsessive/impulsive men and the women who can't seem to stand them...Ergo Dennis and Patricia into the mix.

I had helped her, helped her help someone she loved in a way that excluded me from being loved by her in that same way. And I'll be damned, Alex, if I was not more alive inside her embrace in front of all those people than I had ever been before.
Sarah, didn't this remind you of Angelique and Simon...Dennis helps Angelique in the same way Angelique thinks she's helping Simon-It keeps them both relevant. The circumstances between the two relationships are different, but the underlying motivation seems to be the same.

And who in their right mind climbs 13 feet up a ladder and rope and lets go, expecting someone to catch them? I did a variation of this in high school, but it was only about four feet off the ground. Only peer pressure and a need to not look like a coward could get someone up there. It's interesting that Alex points out his own culpability. He's a physicist, he knew the design was flawed, so why did he go up there?

LOL! I did this too, and you're right, it wasn't that high...I still didn't fall back. I couldn't do it, I still can't. :)

I think he climbed up being in the thick of it and he maybe a physicist, but does he have to be one for every minute of the day...? It's an oversight, a mistake, his mistake.

Some other things at the retreat are a bit strange too. When they're leaning forward with their heads touching telling their secrets.
I was glad for this comic relief, the retreat, mixed in with Dennis's self-deprecating blubbering. It's sad, but how long is he going to play the blame game?

This gives me the heebie jeebies. It was interesting, when Pamela started to cry, his description Nearby groups stopped to listen to her. We were embarrassed. Our heads were still touching. Does that last addition seem odd to anyone? Why was it important to point out that their heads were still touching?
Really, it gave you the creeps? If they had separated like the rest of the groups mentioned and there was consoling involved on Dennis' part, I think the Dr. was trying to distinguish between Dennis feeling sympathy, or empathy...Was Dennis only affected by her pain, or did he really associate with it? I don't think Dennis felt either. Dennis and Joe were bothered by what she was divulging, they weren't going to let it disturb their activity the way it did the other groups. By Pamela divulging what she did in front of the groups at a "work" retreat, she was committing career suicide, I didn't find it odd at all they didn't find themselves unglued because of her. They pitied the fool because of what would ensue when she went back to work. Are you still thinking homoerotic influences? It was Dr. Klima who prompted Dennis to reiterate whether or not he was still touching foreheads with Joe, it wasn't to emphasize anything on Dennis' part. Is this what you were asking, or did I misread your question? :)

All roads seem to lead to her so far though, so I'm sure we'll hear of her again.
I don't know, maybe...I think all roads lead to Dr. Klima. Now I wonder "if these two," are in cahoots? LOL!

I think it's interesting that Dennis thinks that Joe took him to the brothel. They both remember it without any personal responsibility. I tend to believe Dennis because he embellishes less on the whole story. On the other hand, he thinks Joe is responsible for an awful lot in his life, so he has no reason to remember it otherwise.
Yes, it seems neither one wants to be responsible for their attendance at the brothel. What makes you think Dennis isn't embellishing as much on the whole story...Are you implying Joe isn't credible? I take into consideration another aspect of this story line being, differing views on the subject at hand do not make any one source less credible than the other, it just gives us more to work with. If anything, considering the emotional state of Dennis at his appointment with Dr. Klima, don't you think he's basing many of his conclusions stemming from emotions than the facts at hand? Didn't Dr. Klima say to Angelique something along the lines of making decisions based on your emotions when he requoted The emotions are not skilled workers...That it doesn't help the case of a person who is imprisoned by their passions/affections versus taking action using rational thought?

His contempt for Joe is interesting
Yes, it is. Another reason, I wouldn't be buying too much into what he says...It's too biased, in spite of the facts at hand.

In a previous part we read about Joe referring to his relationship with Mitch as a "Yin/Yang" type, and Mitch just "smiles," no words. In this current part, Dennis says to Dr. Klima how much he dislikes Joe, how he's such an idiot, he looks down on him, he's a "buffoon," but they are also "compliments" to one another, they are "opposites." Joe was right, Mitch's smile was a silent acknowledgement, I thought. Now Mitch says they were a compliment to one another, "or so he thought," but this is based on him thinking their deal with the Health National fell through on account of Joe not coming through on his part of the deal in selling Sheere. This wasn't Joe's fault, it was out of his hands...Dennis even agrees to this, but still insists on blaming Joe. The situation about Joe fumbling for his phone instead of helping to catch Dennis is unfounded as well, in spite of the proof proving otherwise, Joe is still blamed for Dennis' current state. Dennis sounds irrational and at his wits end. I don't think he's got the best grasp on reality either.

I really shouldn't be surprised that Joe sneaks into his hospital room to cry over his own problems, but I was still pretty appalled. Especially since Mitch is his "friend"
I don't think it's the type of friendship where they're doing each other's hair, it's a work thing. Let's not forget, Mitch never acknowledged Joe's son's abduction either; the irony here is, Joe appreciated Mitch for not stating the obvious. See the difference?

The continued emphasis on having to "pay for it" is really bothering me. As long as prostitution is legal, what does it actually matter? It seems very practical to me.
It has nothing to do with prostitution being legal, I don't think either of these men feel they should "have" to pay for it. They are both successful, well to do professionals, who have wives and families at home, but instead they are at a brothel seeking companionship in some form. Why should they "have" to pay for a service along those lines when they could have it for free. It's not about paying for it, it's about their ego. They are writing checks their egos aren't cashing.

At the corporate retreat when Joe seduces Helen to get his phone back, did anyone else feel that he was only having sex with her because Mitch could hear them?
What purpose does it serve for Joe to have Mitch overhear them having sex? I think Mitch said it best He was just going for it with the little fat girl for no damn reason at all, just because he could, and he had forgotten all about me. I don't think Joe cares enough about Mitch, to have pity sex 'only' for the purpose of the other bearing witness to it.

[Ami]

Some thoughts of my own...

This is the first time I see Dr. Alex Klima, the psychiatrist, practicing with an actual patient in his office and it turns out to be Dennis Mitchell. I did notice, however, the dialogue between the two was very contrived and inorganic. From what I understand, a doctor should never direct the conversation with his/her patient, it should always be as organic as possible and this didn't feel like it at all. There also was an air of competition between the two created by Dennis mostly in reference to Angelique and how well each of them knew her. Dennis was goading Alex, I thought, into a little bit of a pissing contest (yes, a lot of peeing in this novel); which was completely unnecessary because I didn't think Alex was fishing for information to begin with...Another attempt of Dennis trying to make his delusions a reality; Simon-like, actually. Which begs the question, I wonder why Alex remained professional and ethical with Dennis, but not Simon...Dennis obviously didn't charm Alex like Simon did.

Question
The exchange about "lower and higher" needs begins with Mitch saying You once said something about 'lower' and 'higher' needs..., I was under the impression that this session was their first meeting...Am I wrong? The last time Maslow's theory about human motivation was in part 1, on page 11, in an explanation to Anna about Simon...I wonder if there's a connection, if at all?

[Sarah]

I just did a post in Part Three about seeking status and it gave me some additional thoughts in this section. At first I thought that this section was kind of pointless other than showing us that something happened to Angelique and that Mitch had her money. But as I was commenting on Joe's attachment to wealth being a mark of status and Simon's attachment to intellect and knowledge being status, I realized that Mitch is sort of the antithesis of both of them. He has access to a high paying job and rejects it and he has an education that most people can only fantasize about and it's a point of shame to him. Although he clearly has some serious issues, I think in this way he provides a middle ground or balance between the two.

Edit: Angelique obtains status in the most typical way for women. She's beautiful.

[Sarah]

Sarah, didn't this remind you of Angelique and Simon...Dennis helps Angelique in the same way Angelique thinks she's helping Simon-It keeps them both relevant
Although I see what you mean, this was not my impression. Dennis knows he has no chance of winning Angelique over.

Really, it gave you the creeps?
It wasn't the event that gave me the creeps, it was that moment that Dennis is going on and on about it and that final Our heads were still touching. He was obsessing over that one fact and it just seemed really strange and unsettling to me.

Are you implying Joe isn't credible
Joe is far more obsessed about justifying the trip to the brothel so to me he's more likely to alter his memories a bit more. We all do this to some degree, I think because we still have to live with ourselves in the end, but I'm getting the feeling from Joe that he goes to more extreme lengths. I think he's one of those people where the memory is so severely altered that you kind of wonder how the hell they can still believe it's true!

Dennis sounds irrational and at his wits end. I don't think he's got the best grasp on reality either.

No kidding! These people are all lunatics!

I don't think it's the type of friendship where they're doing each other's hair, it's a work thing. Let's not forget, Mitch never acknowledged Joe's son's abduction either; the irony here is, Joe appreciated Mitch for not stating the obvious
But Joe actually tells Mitch that he's his closest friend or something like that. He thinks of Mitch as a friend but he's still crying over his own woes and never seems to sympathize with Mitch. Of course, we only have Mitch's word on this and he's not the most reliable when it comes to Joe.

What purpose does it serve for Joe to have Mitch overhear them having sex?
Two purposes. He reaffirms his own belief in his virility and he proves that he doesn't have to "pay for it". Mitch was in there only moments before this scene and he specifically told Joe that he had heard everything that happened and told Joe how well he played it. There's no way that Joe wasn't aware of Mitch being out there. There are plenty of men who like to have sex in front of men for whatever reason. But I think this makes him feel desirable and gives him a witness to how irresistible he is.

I did notice, however, the dialogue between the two was very contrived and inorganic.
This was interesting to me because the areas where Alex got particularly pushy were when he was trying to get more info about Joe. The part where he shows Dennis the photo didn't seem that odd but his attempts to guide the conversation were off.

I was under the impression that this session was their first meeting...Am I wrong?
I assumed that this was referring to a part of the session we weren't seeing. It could also be something he said in public or in a paper that Mitch read? I'm not sure but it did kind of surprise me when it happened.

[Ami]

Sarah wrote: "Sarah, didn't this remind you of Angelique and Simon...Dennis helps Angelique in the same way Angelique thinks she's helping Simon-It keeps them both relevant
Although I see what you mean, this was..."

Two purposes. He reaffirms his own belief in his virility and he proves that he doesn't have to "pay for it"... There's no way that Joe wasn't aware of Mitch being out there. There are plenty of men who like to have sex in front of men for whatever reason.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think it was the case. Had Mitch been a woman sitting outside while Joe was having sex with another woman, then yes, I would think it was possible-He isn't as calculating in his private life like he is while at work. I didn't think much of Mitch being outside during Joe's escapade, I only thought it was crass and disrespectful of him.

It could also be something he said in public or in a paper that Mitch read?
Ahhh, yes.

[Ami]

Sarah wrote: "Sarah, didn't this remind you of Angelique and Simon...Dennis helps Angelique in the same way Angelique thinks she's helping Simon-It keeps them both relevant
Although I see what you mean, this was..."

Dennis knows he has no chance of winning Angelique over.
I was only talking about the relevance factor in one another; definitely, didn't think Mitch had any want for Angelique in any other sense... He didn't respect her either from what it looked like to me.

[Sarah]

I see what you mean. I thought Angelique's main reason for helping Simon was to win his love.

[Ami]

Sarah wrote: "I see what you mean. I thought Angelique's main reason for helping Simon was to win his love."

No, you are correct it is, but when she realizes it would be in vain she settles for serving whatever little purpose she can. Gosh, it's just so sad and pathetic any way you look at it. Regardless of settling, however, it's clear this young woman is not listening to what Simon is saying. Evidence of this would be her misconstruing Simon's love for her. She hears him (Simon), but I don't think she's "listening" to him/them (Mitch).

[Linda]

Sarah wrote: "The thing that stands out the most to me in this section is Dennis's injuries at the corporate retreat."

This was quite an unexpected event that really caused a significant change in Mitch's life, I couldn't believe the extent of his injuries. And then, like you said Sarah, to have such a horrible wife such as Patricia just made Mitch's situation even more sad.

And yes, here is yet another character in the book in which I find myself feeling sorry for!

Regarding his injuries. Why was there this continue insistence that Joe was responsible for them?

Even though Mitch ended up with this horrific injury and I feel bad for him, there seems to be this side of him which needs to put any sort of blame on someone else besides himself. I felt that he had to point the blame for his injury at Joe because he already had anger directed at Joe for other things. I was just easier to assign blame to Joe rather than look at what led him to that situation. Like Alex said, Mitch has a doctorate in physics so he was well aware of the risk. Why didn't he just refuse? Perhaps because of the same reason he and Joe gave up their cell phones? It didn't make sense, but there was that herd-mentality that everyone else is doing it and they didn't want to cause a scene in refusing. It's easier to complain about it behind everyone's back after the fact than stand up for yourself at the time.

At the corporate retreat when Joe seduces Helen to get his phone back, did anyone else feel that he was only having sex with her because Mitch could hear them?

Yes, totally. I really disliked Joe at this point.

The counting cards section was interesting. It was especially interesting to me that it covered so many pages. Why was it necessary to explain this in such depth?

I was wondering the same thing, why was it necessary to go into so much depth? And yet I found myself really pulled into the technique and thinking "huh, so that's how it's done...". I wonder if Mitch going into so much depth was sort of a way for him to show off his knowledge? It seemed he always had to mention how smart he was, how HE was the brains as the analyst, yet it was Joe who made so much money.

I think it's interesting that Dennis thinks that Joe took him to the brothel. They both remember it without any personal responsibility.

Yeah, another example here of Mitch putting the blame on someone else.

He also mentions at some point how ridiculous he feels the car is. I'm not sure what he feels is so bad about it. I think he says it's impractical or something like that.

Jealousy? Again, Mitch is the brains, but Joe is reaping more of the reward in higher pay.

I really shouldn't be surprised that Joe sneaks into his hospital room to cry over his own problems, but I was still pretty appalled. Especially since Mitch is his "friend".

It was really interesting to see how Mitch saw Joe versus how Joe saw Mitch. Their views of their relationship to each other were completely different.

[Linda]

Ami wrote: "Are you implying Joe isn't credible? ... If anything, considering the emotional state of Dennis at his appointment with Dr. Klima, don't you think he's basing many of his conclusions stemming from emotions than the facts at hand?"

Regarding who took who to the brothel, someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong in this case. Someone had to have suggested it or brought it up first.

From my point of view, it seems that Joe is more credible than Dennis. When I read this bit, I thought of how Joe gave details of how they ended up there, that Dennis was given a "gift certificate", how they mingled with the women, etc. But on the other hand like Ami said, Dennis seemed to offer his view of the story while fueled with emotions. He just blurted out to Alex that "it was Joe who took me to the brothel, you know". No details or anything. Just another quick jab at the person he was angry with, and again putting blame on someone else regarding and incident he is embarrassed about.

[Sarah]

I was wondering the same thing, why was it necessary to go into so much depth? And yet I found myself really pulled into the technique and thinking "huh, so that's how it's done...". I wonder if Mitch going into so much depth was sort of a way for him to show off his knowledge? It seemed he always had to mention how smart he was, how HE was the brains as the analyst, yet it was Joe who made so much money.

It was interesting to see how it was done. I can see where he wanted to show off his knowledge, but for God's sake, did he have to tell US about it? Couldn't he have summed it up? Geez.

Yeah, another example here of Mitch putting the blame on someone else.

This reaction of yours interested me. I thought Mitch was more credible in this particular instance. Joe was so embarrassed and obsessed with having to "pay for it" that I felt he needed to justify it to himself. Mitch mentions it in passing and didn't seem particularly concerned. But he does really want to blame Joe for everything.

It was really interesting to see how Mitch saw Joe versus how Joe saw Mitch. Their views of their relationship to each other were completely different.

Yeah, I liked Joe's Mitch better than the bitter, angry man we saw in Mitch's section.

[Linda]

Sarah wrote: "Joe is far more obsessed about justifying the trip to the brothel so to me he's more likely to alter his memories a bit more. We all do this to some degree, I think because we still have to live with ourselves in the end, but I'm getting the feeling from Joe that he goes to more extreme lengths."

Interesting perspective. I can see that as being the case too. Now I'm back to not knowing who suggested the brothel....

[Sarah]

This book isn't really one for firm answers!

[Ami]

Sarah wrote: "This book isn't really one for firm answers!"

Not that we know of as of yet, but damn, is it fun trying to figure it all out...What a sad, sad, grouping of characters we have, thus far.

[Sarah]

They are, but they're also so very normal. This is the kind of thing that goes on in a real persons head rather than what happens in most books.

[Ami]

Sarah wrote: "They are, but they're also so very normal. This is the kind of thing that goes on in a real persons head rather than what happens in most books."

I think that's why it's so riveting...It's normal.

[Sarah]

I've gotten very absorbed in each section.

[Linda]

Sarah wrote: "This book isn't really one for firm answers!"

I don't know how I've gotten into reading these types of books lately - no definite answers, puzzles and labyrinths, what the heck is happening, who knows what, etc. It's fun, but also exhausting! I'm not used to thinking like this. lol. :)

[Teanka]

I sympathised with Mitch a lot in this section (again!). No, seriously. I like Mitch the best of all the characters in the book so far. Maybe that's because he did his PhD in physics, tried to find a job in that field and chose to become a stockbroker only after the circumstances made him, he simply had to find a decent work at the time. I'm sorry that he chose a wrong woman to be his wife, too. And I liked his decision of being an analyst and not a stockbroker at all cost despite gaining a lot less money in that job.

I know he's obsessed with his dislike to Joe, but he's made me revise my view on him anyway. Our discussion about Joe probably helped, too :) I don't think Dennis ever considered Joe to be his friend. He just ended up being paired with him at work, he thought Joe was stupid, but a very convincing seller.

It was very enlightening to learn what Dennis thought of his job. In Joe's section I got this impression that he thought he knew what he was doing, making people buy shares of this or that business. After all, it was all based on a sound research, done mainly by Mitch. Joe even stated once that he owed at least a big part of his house and possessions to Mitch. And yet, seen from Dennis' perspective, it was all one gigantic bet and he wasn't so sure what he was doing at all, claiming no one could calculate all of the risks. I thought he had a far better grasp of what he was doing. He also impressed me in the casino, obviously he's a very talented guy.

That said, I found the second part of this section beginning with the corporate retreat a kind of a social satire, did anybody else get that feeling? I mean, wasn't a bit too much happening to just one poor guy: the retreat was alltogether ridiculous, I couldn't think how was it possible that they couldn't even call their clients from there, isn't work most important for the corporation? The activities they performed there seemed extremely humiliating and I was sorry that they couldn't quit for fear of losing their jobs. And then, his injuries, they were extreme. He was crippled for life and in constant pain for months. Then, on top of that we have his wife who despises him, shouts at their child vomiting in the car and is completely helpless in such a situation. But anyway, she takes the boy with her and Dennis has to fight for him in court. She also destroys the marriage of the only person who was helping her husband in everyday chores by sleeping with her neighbour's husband. Wasn't it a bit too much for one person, happening over a very short period of time?

Then we also have his love for Angelique combined with the accident at the end of the section. I'm wondering if she lived through it... I hope so, of course, but I'm concerned.

Linda wrote: "From my point of view, it seems that Joe is more credible than Dennis. When I read this bit, I thought of how Joe gave details of how they ended up there, that Dennis was given a "gift certificate", how they mingled with the women, etc. But on the other hand like Ami said, Dennis seemed to offer his view of the story while fueled with emotions. He just blurted out to Alex that "it was Joe who took me to the brothel, you know". "

I thought both relations might be credible at the same time. Namely, Dennis was given that gift certificate for the brothel, but he wouldn't have used it on his own. Joe was there and Dennis felt obliged to go together, so in this sense he wants to blame Joe for it.

Sarah wrote: "I was under the impression that this session was their first meeting...Am I wrong?"

I thought it was too long and covered too many subjects for it to be just the first meeting. I kept wondering how much time has passed in this chapter. I'm inclined to think these were many sessions compiled in one.

Linda wrote: "Like Alex said, Mitch has a doctorate in physics so he was well aware of the risk. Why didn't he just refuse?"

It's very hard to refuse a group. You don't need to have a PhD in physics in order to know this kind of activity is dangerous, and yet no-one refused. Dennis was just *extremely* unlucky. I liked the description of how they wanted to get him fired and humiliated at work after the accident, it felt very real for the corporation to have been the cause of Dennis' injuries and then to try to get rid of him. And I liked how he persevered, he was a nice refreshment after Angela who was essentially foolish in her behaviour (the casino was yet another example of that).

Linda wrote: "Sarah wrote: "This book isn't really one for firm answers!"

I don't know how I've gotten into reading these types of books lately - no definite answers, puzzles and labyrinths, what the heck is happening, who knows what, etc. It's fun, but also exhausting! I'm not used to thinking like this. lol. :) "

To my surprise, I think I'm starting to develop a taste for this kind of books lately. This one is great so far. There is basically no universal truth good for everyone and everything depends on your point of view. Makes you think a lot and that's wonderful :) But then it's true it's easier to have just one of this kind of book being discussed at the same time, otherwise it can be really difficult to keep up. I've read this section over a week ago and just couldn't gather my thoughts and write a post for days.

[Sarah]

Teanka wrote: "That said, I found the second part of this section beginning with the corporate retreat a kind of a social satire, did anybody else get that feeling?..."

It is a bit ridiculous. It was an interesting look at peer pressure. The need to conform to the masses. I honestly don't think I would have fallen backward off of that rope but I do think I would have given up my phone. Hmm, maybe not. What if there was an emergency?

I'm wondering if she lived through it... I hope so, of course, but I'm concerned.

I'm also very worried about this. I'm hoping to hear that she's okay. The book better not leave us hanging.

I thought both relations might be credible at the same time. Namely, Dennis was given that gift certificate for the brothel, but he wouldn't have used it on his own. Joe was there and Dennis felt obliged to go together, so in this sense he wants to blame Joe for it.

This makes so much sense! That part was really bugging me. It should have been absolutely unambiguous and it wasn't. To have such incredibly different versions of an event was completely baffling.

I liked the description of how they wanted to get him fired and humiliated at work after the accident, it felt very real for the corporation to have been the cause of Dennis' injuries and then to try to get rid of him.

I can see this because they wouldn't want him as a reminder that things went awry. I also thought it was interesting that he checked into it later and found that there were other people who were injured. What the hell is wrong with that retreat company that they continue to do this activity. And why is it 13 feet up in the air anyway? It's insane!

To my surprise, I think I'm starting to develop a taste for this kind of books lately.

I read Herman Koch's The Dinner a few months ago and I've been completely addicted to unreliable narrator situations since then. I usually like things clean and unambiguous so I'm surprised by this new fascination.

[Linda]

Teanka wrote: "I sympathised with Mitch a lot in this section (again!). No, seriously. I like Mitch the best of all the characters in the book so far. Maybe that's because he did his PhD in physics, tried to find..."

Yes, I also sympathized with Mitch (along with everyone in the book, it seems!) for all the reasons you stated, Teanka. I found myself wishing, though, that he didn't have so much anger. And as I sit here thinking about him, I wonder if it has to do with him apparently not having anyone to talk to? He obviously couldn't talk to his wife, and he doesn't appear to have any real friends. I'm glad he has finally sought out help and is talking to Dr. Klima, and Angelique was more of a friend to him, but at this point so much has already happened to him.

That said, I found the second part of this section beginning with the corporate retreat a kind of a social satire, did anybody else get that feeling? I mean, wasn't a bit too much happening to just one poor guy...Wasn't it a bit too much for one person, happening over a very short period of time?

I had not thought of this part as a social satire, but you could be right. I did think that way too much happened to Mitch, I almost sat reading in disbelief at his bad luck.

I thought both relations might be credible at the same time. Namely, Dennis was given that gift certificate for the brothel, but he wouldn't have used it on his own. Joe was there and Dennis felt obliged to go together, so in this sense he wants to blame Joe for it.

I can see that reasoning, and it would fit with the same scene being view differently by two different people.

It's very hard to refuse a group. You don't need to have a PhD in physics in order to know this kind of activity is dangerous, and yet no-one refused. Dennis was just *extremely* unlucky.

Yep. And it just so happened it was the physicist who got hurt, the one person who should have known better! Mitch sure has the bad luck here.

Which makes the fact that he can count cards a plus for him. I wouldn't want to see his luck tried out in the casinos! :)

To my surprise, I think I'm starting to develop a taste for this kind of books lately. This one is great so far. There is basically no universal truth good for everyone and everything depends on your point of view.

I like them too, but I find them frustrating at the same time. I like concrete answers - like a math problem that I can KNOW whether I came to the right answer or not.

[Sarah]

I like concrete answers too. That's why I'm surprised that I like these types. But there's a certain amount of glee that I feel when I watch people acting like real people. I don't think it comes from a nice, sweet part of me though. It's like listening to juicy gossip.

[Linda]

Sarah wrote: "But there's a certain amount of glee that I feel when I watch people acting like real people. I don't think it comes from a nice, sweet part of me though. It's like listening to juicy gossip."

:) Maybe that's one reason this book is so hard to put down? It IS like juicy gossip!

[Teanka]

Linda wrote: "It IS like juicy gossip! "

Actually it's even more, we get a glimpse into their heads. As juicy as it gets, I think.

[Sarah]

Yes, we can read all of the juicy gossip we want without the guilt. It's awesome.