The Old Wives’ Tale - Chapter 5 thru 7 and Book 2, Chapter 1

[Deborah, Moderator]

I had a Covid booster this week that knocked me out with a severe headache and couldn’t read, me, who reads daily and even in bed. Talk about frustrating. Enough lamenting. I will post my thoughts later today. In the mean time feel free to start the discussion here.

[Robin P, Moderator]

When Sophia ran away to get married, I cheered for her. I was impressed that she was able to arrange a whole duplicitous correspondence. But I'm not sure if I am supposed to approve of this. Would Victorians think disobedience was terrible? It seemed to me the two girls were plenty old enough to marry, being over 20 when that was practically an old maid. And the two suitors both had things to recommend them. Are we supposed to think Mrs. Baines is an overly smug bourgeois who thinks she can get better matches? The trope of marrying the boss's daughter and taking over the business wasn't totally unrealistic. It made a lot of sense in those days if you didn't have a son.

[Abigail]

Hope you feel better soon! If you have access to Aleve, that has been effective for me in countering the vaccine side effects.

Turning to the book, the story certainly hustles right along!

I’m not so sure about the narrative strategy here. Bennett goes to considerable lengths to set up intergenerational power struggles and then the matriarch simply moves away. Felt like a pricked balloon.

Mr. Povey is an interesting character, simultaneously cringing and driven. Once again Constance is stuck in the middle between clashing forces. And the way Mr. Povey is written, he’s pretty unappealing both physically and as a life partner, leading me to wonder to what extent her attachment to him is an unconscious effort to replace a missing partner—especially since he seems to be a lot older than she is.

[Renee]

Povey may not deserve it, but I keep thinking of Alan Cumming in Circle of Friends.

[Robin P, Moderator]

There are some amusing scenes and phrases. I like the way Povey would have brushed his hair the night before if he could. For something like 30 years, when I was working, I would lay out my clothes and get things ready the night before, so I approve!

Actually the first chapter of book 2 is rather a letdown, the major events are the dog, the cigars and the signboard - and Mrs. Baines' visit, but none of them really make much difference. I guess the departure of Maggie is the biggest event. I wondered - Couldn't Sophia come to visit now that her mother is gone? Or maybe nobody knows where she is - "abroad"?

[Tom]

I also feel like this section hurries along a bit. Given that this book is following the women's entire lives, I don't feel disappointed though.

Does anyone else expect Soph-eye-a (my audiobook also pronounces it thus) to enter the narrative dramatically soon, having been essentially absent for a long period of time?

I'm really enjoying the book overall. I love the light-hearted humour given over to everyday things and events. I can see why the book is treasured as a sort of chronical of every-day Victorian life.

[Bonnie]

I had the impression that when Sophia sends cards, they are in an envelope with no return address. So they do not how to find her.

I enjoy the little brushes of humor and of psychology.

[Robin P, Moderator]

I also liked the details of life at the time, like turning on or off the gas. It's the sort of thing historical novelists often miss because we just don't think of them. Reading novels from the past is like time travel!

[Deborah, Moderator]

Thank you Abigail. The Aleve worked great. I’m now caught up with our reading schedule.

1. How do Mrs. Baines and her sister (Hester) compare/contrast to the sisters (Constance and Sophia)?

2, What does Bennett say about social strata?

[Lori, Moderator]

Robin P wrote: "When Sophia ran away to get married, I cheered for her. I was impressed that she was able to arrange a whole duplicitous correspondence. But I'm not sure if I am supposed to approve of this. Would ..."

I was also glad. Except Mrs. Baines was saying she heard something about Mr. Scales having lived a "wild life," so I hope that, assuming Mrs. Baines was telling the truth and not exaggerating (which I'm not sure of), he doesn't end up being a bad husband.

[Frances, Moderator]

I've enjoyed this section and the book as a whole. It is lovely to see that Constance is clearly delighted by her husband, and that they are both trying hard to navigate the difficult things that marriage can throw up between a couple. I do like that they are both trying to assert themselves as-for Constance-the Mistress of the house, and for Mr Povey (do we know his first name?) the Proprietor of the business (although I appreciate that he gave Mr Baines' name pride of place on the sign).

I also agree that there seemed to be a lot done to prevent the daughters ever meeting or finding an eligible husband-were they supposed to materialize from thin air? Were there appropriate young men at church? I think the trope of the apprentice marrying the owner's daughter in this case is quite realistic-how many possible spouses did either of them meet, so it seems natural that, assuming they are both reasonably pleasant and not too unattractive, they might fall in love with each other.

The descriptions of the two elder sisters were quite funny-their stoutness and solemnity pressing down on all surrounding society.

[Abigail]

Mr. Povey’s first name is Samuel.

Speculating here, but maybe not putting the daughters out into situations where they might find a husband is a class issue? For the idle gentry, making a good marriage was a priority, but for shopkeepers the priority might be preservation of the business (there are some hints of that in the text), especially with no son in the picture. And the Baineses occupy an in-between place in the class structure: more successful and prosperous than most of their neighbors but not at the level of educated professionals like barristers, so the pool of suitable candidates would be small. Working all day, Mrs. Baines didn’t have much social life, and Mr. Baines’s illness kept him from being engaged civically.

[Robin P, Moderator]

Besides proximity, Samuel and Constance seem to share a serious outlook on life and a devotion to the business. They both got very involved in the creation of new "tickets" - that is, the labels to advertise the shop items. In some businesses that were a bit better off, I think the girls would have been discouraged from actually working in the shop, but Constance learned the business, the customers, etc. It helps that it's a type of business suitable for a woman, rather than a blacksmith's shop or even a bank, which would have been thought inappropriate.

[Bonnie]

1. That is interesting about reasons why the Baineses might not have been so intent on the girls marrying.
2. I am not glad about Sophia running off, I am suspicious of Mr. Scales. He did things not appropriate for the times, like send her notes, set up secret rendezvous, come on to her too strong (when she ran away from him that afternoon). Also there was maybe something off about his -alleged- attack, when he was sitting on their steps.

[Robin P, Moderator]

True, but he didn’t get any money or interest in the shop by running off with her. It’s unclear whether his own family would continue to support him.

[Abigail]

I think he was bowled over by her looks (as she was by his). It’s not as if they had time to get to know each other very well. Hopefully his timely inheritance smoothed over the rough patches.

[Brian E]

Renee wrote: "Povey may not deserve it, but I keep thinking of Alan Cumming in Circle of Friends."

Great character comparison. Although, while more accurate than Povey to Uriah Heep, I think Cumming's Sean Walsh is much closer to Heep than Povey in intent and actions. Heep and Walsh both had improper and unreturned amorous desires toward their boss's daughters and improper desires toward the boss's money.
Povey is more nerdy than creepy like those two are. While Povey may have similarly coveted his boss's daughter and business, his amorous desires toward Constance are not unwanted and are clearly returned and, while he may dream of owning the business someday, his concurrent and sincere desire to advance his boss's interests was always present, as manifested by the posthumous signage homage to John Baines. The ostentatiousness of the signage is the result of the fact that Povey is a nerd.

Like Frances, I am delighted by the Constance/Samuel coupling as they, to me, fit well. Many of Samuel's ideas and actions that we would consider negatively, Constance views as attractive traits and reasons to love him. Samuel seems to have a similar attitude toward Constance. That attitude bodes well for a successful marriage and is pretty charming to boot. So I think they make a great couple even though I'd dream up with any excuse I could to avoid a double date with them..

[Alex]

Robin P wrote: Actually the first chapter of book 2 is rather a letdown, the major events are the dog, the cigars and the signboard - and Mrs. Baines' visit, but none of them really make much difference

Isn't that exactly the mood that the author wants to establish? A not very exiting, but dutiful life. So that when we read about Sofia later on the difference is clearly visible. That's what I think anyway.

[Renee]

I agree, Brian. There are many reasons why they should get on well with their choice of life partner. I suppose it depends on what life throws at them. I think it was very wise of Mrs. Baines to have stepped away from the business. Her presence might have made it much harder for them to assume their new roles.

Also, the comparison of Cummings/Walsh and Uriah Heep is spot on!

[Trev]

Brian E wrote: "Renee wrote: "Povey may not deserve it, but I keep thinking of Alan Cumming in Circle of Friends."

Great character comparison. Although, while more accurate than Povey to Uriah Heep, I think Cummi..."

I like your description of Samuel Povey, Brian. Although he may be deficient in one or two character traits, he seems to be a decent man. In that sense he can be compared to ‘Sense and Sensibility’s Edward Ferrars (much maligned by many critics) because they both can be seen as underwhelming yet they have both attracted one of the two main protagonists in each story. Constance admires Samuel a great deal and sees a lot in him that others don’t.

As for Sophia, her act of elopement with Gerald Scales can only be described as one of naïve desperation. She is gambling her whole future on a man who she hardly knows, having gained the only knowledge/insight of him via clandestine meetings and notes. Her future seems to rest on her belief of what he has told her. She even dismisses his coarse attempt at inappropriate intimacy with hardly a second thought. Yes, It is a chance to get away, but it feels like Russian Roulette.

An interesting remnant of a 1988 BBC adaptation of The Old Wives' Tale can be found here. It is a short trailer to the series. I can’t find the series anywhere, it seems to be lost, Such a pity when actors including Beryl Reid, Patricia Routledge, Phyllis Calvert, Julian Fellowes and Alfred Burke are involved.

https://alchetron.com/Sophia-and-Cons...

[Abigail]

Great find, Trev! Though it looks as if they changed the story quite a bit.