15b. Circe, Part 2

[Theresa]

Also, for what it is worth, I also happen to believe that Odysseus was exhausted, thirsty, sleep deprived, and hallucinating during some of his more fantastical experiences. Surely in Homer's time there were many instances of ships being lost at sea and sailors coming back half alive and half dead and raving about Poseidon, imagining his shipmates as sides of pork or whatever...

[Thomas]

Theresa wrote: "Also, for what it is worth, I also happen to believe that Odysseus was exhausted, thirsty, sleep deprived, and hallucinating during some of his more fantastical experiences. Surely in Homer's ti..."

I doubt there is a naturalistic explanation for the weirdness of Circe. What happens here could only be explained by a psychedelic of some kind, or a communal psychosis. It would make more sense to me if it were someone detoxing rather than someone drinking to excess... if there is a naturalistic explanation I think it's what you suggest above. Exhaustion.

[Lily]

Thomas wrote: "...doubt there is a naturalistic explanation for the weirdness.... if there is a naturalistic explanation .... Exhaustion. ..."

So what some of us experienced as we have sloughed through this may have been "only" exhaustion? Seemed more like the deluge of Joyce's words, sentences, sounds, syntax, aesthetics, vacillation between scholasticism and modernity, ....

[Thomas]

Hilary wrote: "The black mass type episode I found chilling. I don't remember any sense of condemnation in Bloom's mind; even were it only part of a fantasy. His dreams or subconscious seem to cry out for help. There are so many horrible images that suggest a very tormented mind."

It is troubling indeed, as nightmares are. The climax of the episode seems to me the apotheosis of Stephen's "Non Serviam." He smashes the light with the symbol of his personality, which is one of rejection of everything that is native to him -- his mother, his country, his friends, and his church. Everything is turned upside down and inside out -- the black mass is an example of this total inversion. He has to do this in order to come out the other side, like Dante going through Hell, or strangely, Christ dying to life.

[Thomas]

Lily wrote: "So what some of us experienced as we have sloughed through this may have been "only" exhaustion? "

Oh no, I don't think so. But if we are reaching for a "naturalistic" explanation, that's the closest that makes any sense to me. It's far too reductive, as you suggest, to stand alone, but it could be part of the mix.

[Hilary]

Theresa, I have always understood, as you say, that 'Jewishness' is passed down through the mother. I thought that Bloom's mother was not a Jew, which may add to his identity crisis; not that his countrymen seem to recognise this. They choose to be insulting behind his back. In their minds he is not truly one of them.

I may be misrepresenting this as I am no expert. Whatever the reasons, Bloom is certainly uneasy in his own skin.

[Wendel]

Hilary wrote: "Theresa, I have always understood, as you say, that 'Jewishness' is passed down through the mother ..."

That is indeed a rabbinical norm, but there are other opinions, see Wikipedia.

Within the context of our book I believe that for Bloom the question has little emotional interest* (unless provoked!). While his endless curiosity is more directed towards practical matters, like the Dublin water supply system.

We might also notice that his Jewish antecedents are not very specific. For Joyce it is primarily a way to define him as an outsider. The protagonist in Finnegans Wake is of protestant parentage, for much the same purpose (remember, this is Ireland).

* for clarity's sake: on this point I seem to adhere to a 'minority' interpretation

[Theresa]

Wendel wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Theresa, I have always understood, as you say, that 'Jewishness' is passed down through the mother ..."

That is indeed a rabbinical norm, but there are other opinions, see Wikipedia..."

That makes a lot of sense. It just defines him as an outsider.

[Hilary]

I have some vague memory of Bloom's mother being a Protestant, but I could well be suffering from the effect of Bloom's hallucinatory style dreams.

Yes, Wendel, this is Ireland. We Irish have LONG memories. We are like elephants. Unfortunately, the Catholic/Protestant divide is still very real in some parts of the country. Although things have become better, superficially anyhow, it usually doesn't take long to scratch the surface for old sectarian attitudes to raise their ugly heads.

[Sue]

LOL Hilary, re your possibility of memories stemming from the effect of Bloom's hallucinatory style dreams! That made me chuckle. But I have had that same dream..or rather read the same as well. So as (according to our deliriums or research/readings) Bloom's mother was not Jewish..the fact remains that apparently Irish society still perceived Bloom as Jewish…which is why perhaps he never felt fully Irish nor Jew. My deliriums (aka research) found this: "Two years later, in 1906, Edward Raphael Lipsett wrote down some of his impressions on what it meant to be a Jew in Ireland. He wrote, "You cannot get one native to remember that a Jew may be an Irishman. The term 'Irish Jew' seems to have a contradictory ring upon the native ear; the idea is wholly inconceivable to the native mind…"

[Thomas]

Hilary wrote: "I have some vague memory of Bloom's mother being a Protestant, but I could well be suffering from the effect of Bloom's hallucinatory style dreams.

Yes, Wendel, this is Ireland. We Irish have LONG memories..."

Bloom is baptised three times (according to Ithaca): first as a Protestant (Church of Ireland) in the Church of St. Nicholas Without, then by three friends under a pump in the village of Swords, and then again as a Catholic (by the same priest who baptised Stephen.) The second one is odd -- why would he need to be baptised by his friends? A childish prank, or did they think the first one didn't take?

Bloom could be baptised a few more times and it wouldn't matter -- he still thinks of himself as a Jew.

[Zippy]

Thomas wrote: "I doubt there is a naturalistic explanation for the weirdness of Circe. What happens here could only be explained by a psychedelic of some kind, or a communal psychosis."

At that time, the very popular absinthe contained greater amounts of the chemical compound thujone found in wormwood. Thujone was for years believed to cause hallucinations, although more recent research (funded by distillers?) dispels that somewhat. About thirty years ago I read something that postulated that wormword also caused brain damage, although a quick search on the internet netted me no references. Bloom attributes Stephen's aggression to absinthe while trying to extricate him from the soldiers - but maybe he just said the first thing to pop into his head.

If anyone were to have a kind of psychological imbalance, I'm sure absinthe would send them over the top. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being psychotic...

[Hilary]

Thanks for your comments Sue and Thomas. :-)

[Hilary]

Patrice, that's true about certain groups of people and the lack of a certain enzyme. I have Chinese friends who drink very little. After one drink they go very red in the face and feel very kidding. We've discussed this and one of the reasons is that they have a lower levels of alcohol dehydrogenase to deal with the alcohol. Perhaps that's the enzyme you mention.

No and you're right, no one would actively hanker after a headache.

Btw, as I'm sure you're aware, not all Irish people drink, nor are all drinkers alcoholics. There are many who believe it to be evil. There was a very vocal politician in the North who died recently. He referred to alcohol as the Devil's buttermilk. We even have Christians in this country who maintain that the wine that Jesus drank was non-alcoholic; something more akin to black currant juice. This is part of their way of justifying that it is wrong to drink alcohol.

[Hilary]

* giddy (not 'kidding')

[Nicola]

Patrice wrote: "I've lost four friends to alcoholism. Almost lost two cousins but they found religion and saved themselves. The latest loss was just a couple of weeks ago. The sweetest man. Happened to be Iris..."

Man that's rough. I'm really sorry to hear that.

[Linda]

Hilary wrote: "...one of the reasons is that they have a lower levels of alcohol dehydrogenase to deal with the alcohol. Perhaps that's the enzyme you mention."

Patrice wrote: "I always say it's no virtue for me not to drink...who wants a headache?"

I used to enjoy two or three drinks at a time, but since having children, especially after my second child, I can barely handle even one drink now. Even 3+ years since my second was born. I always wonder how my body changed to cause that, now I wonder if my enzyme levels became lower after pregnancy somehow.

Now I may enjoy a single beer while working in the yard, and then have to stop there. Even so, I usually don't feel so good the next morning, so then weeks or months will pass before I have another. On the bright side, I tell myself that it saves money.

[Linda]

Patrice wrote: "I've lost four friends to alcoholism. Almost lost two cousins but they found religion and saved themselves. The latest loss was just a couple of weeks ago. The sweetest man."

That's terrible, Patrice. I'm sorry.

[Hilary]

That is so sad, Patrice. It is so true as you say that moderate drinking is the key, that is if one wants to drink at all. As I've got older I find that I drink much more moderately, not through great self-control on my part, it's a bit like what you say, Linda, about what happened to you after your second child. I suppose our bodies are always changing and I'm glad of that as I don't want to end up as another statistic.

It's true what you say, Patrice, sometimes alcoholism is very evident and at other times people are 'functioning alcoholics' when it is much harder to spot.

Having said that, I would hate to have to give up drinking forever as I do really enjoy good ole Irish Guinness and a nice red wine.

[Nicola]

Hilary wrote: "That is so sad, Patrice. It is so true as you say that moderate drinking is the key, that is if one wants to drink at all. As I've got older I find that I drink much more moderately, not through ..."

I don't think I've changed all that much in my drinking habits, I would occasionally overindulge as a youngster I guess more than I do now. One thing has changed; I never used to drink alone but I do now, the last couple of summers I've taken to drinking cider out in the garden while reading a book. Terrible for my waistline (especially as I often nosh away on potato chips and dip at the same time)

[Hilary]

Nicola, drinking cider out in the garden with a good book sounds like a lovely pastime. It doesn't have the sometimes negative connotation that 'drinking alone' can have. Now I want some sun and cider. We're having a very windy day and the dogs had to be brought in from their romping around in case they blew away!

[Hilary]

Gosh Patrice, that's crazy. Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason with these things. :O

[Theresa]

Besides being addictive, alcohol is also habit forming for those less susceptible to addictions. I would count myself lucky to get a headache from one drink.

Also, in reference to another conversation about people who stay out late drinking (not sure if it was this thread or another) in which Patrice expressed surprise, I would also count myself lucky not to have ever been a part of that scene. It is shocking to children but as soon as they come of age people can get used to that lifestyle pretty fast and not question the morality of it. If you have been spared being pressured into that lifestyle you are also lucky.

Patrice was talking about not seeing much of that in Chicago. It may be that pubs (as distinguished from nightclubs and other drinking venues) are or were more common in Ireland. I know neighborhood pubs require licences that are harder to get (because the residential neighbors may or may not want drunks wandering about their neighborhoods at night) and have to close earlier than downtown nightclubs. Also, maybe the cost of real estate in Chicago and other big American cities is too expensive to sustain a pub in every neighborhood? Rather like the disappearance of corner grocery stores in San Francisco and Vancouver?

Somebody in this thread (on a previous page, I don't want to lose my typing be leaving this page) mentioned that she drinks cider alone sometimes and that she didn't used to do that. Drinking can creep up on you (just like eating) and probably should be watched. Having said that, I reckon that since impaired driving has become more of a serious crime more and more people have taken to drinking at home rather than dealing with the hassle of leaving your car at the office and taking a cab home after a few drinks. It is good that we no longer have a drink "for the road" but not so good that people drink alone and that often children are exposed to drinking as a normal daily activity.

[Lily]

Theresa wrote: "...not so good that people drink alone and that often children are exposed to drinking as a normal daily activity...."

LOL! Just for fun:

http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/list/pica...

A bit of passion there, Theresa?

[Theresa]

Lily wrote:

LOL! Just for fun:

http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/list/pica......"


ah hahahaha!


(actually, maybe more like a little too much coffee for me this morning than passion. Gets me worked up. But of course I'm not addicted to coffee...oh no)

[Theresa]

Oh dear. What have I said??