Morales 2341 Spring 2015 Class TTH discussion
Death
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Simple and Commonplace- The Death of Ivan Ilych
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Lillian
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Mar 03, 2015 05:07PM
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Reading chapter two was an eye opening in life. I understand that Ivan Ilych worked really hard to get where he was a Public Prosecutor. He never had time to be with friends and maybe enjoy a couple of liquors or even live life freely. He was the most responsible from his siblings. I feel like Ivan Ilych never had time to relax. He moved from job to job, but mainly he was advancing his career in law. On the other hand, he got married and had children with his wife Praskovya Fyodorovna. As I read I don’t believe he was truly in love with his wife, he settled with anything that was reasonable and he can take anywhere without being judge from society. So, when I read the quote or question “Ivan Ilych’s life had been most simple and commonplace—and most horrifying.” Why might Tolstoy consider Ivan’s “simple and commonplace” life to be “horrifying”? I believe Tolstoy was trying to say that Ivan Ilych lived a normal life, had a wife, children, and a job. He had what most people at that time want. But, its horrifying because he does the same routine every day, nothing amazing happens in his life. Also, I feel not only horrified by his life but sad because now that he has died he did nothing amazing in his life, he just settled for anything that seems to be the right thing to do. He started to hate his job and resent his wife. He wasn't truly happy with his life.
I believe that Tolstoy consider Ivan’s life to be simple, and commonplace because he is trying to compare Ivan’s life with a man and now a days also women ordinary life. Always working hard for what you want to conquer in life. Especially in work so that way the upper supervisors can see how good of a worker you are and would want to promote you to a higher position so you can get a raise as well. Just like Ivan did in the story he kept on climbing up the latter. Another way you can compare Ivan’s life with people ordinary life is also because people are always full of things to do and don’t have enough time to spend with their families just like Ivan didn’t either. I believe Tolstoy did that comparison on purpose so that way we as the reader can relate and feel some kind of sympathy for Ivan’s death because living Ivan’s life is not easy. You are full of stress and pressure by others both at work and by your family that it seems you are living a horrifying life just like Tolstoy said.
by Eric De LeonIn order to see why Tolstoy may consider Ivan’s life horrifying due to its mere simplicity and normalcy, one must then examine its author. Firstly, there was nothing ordinary about Tolstoy’s life right from birth. He was born into the upper echelons of society and new nothing different for the rest of his life. Tolstoy is described as being very extravagant and leading a very hedonistic lifestyle. Tolstoy seems to have it all, money, success, fame, sex. Tolstoy had attained all of these things and had attained them early in in his life. If one were to hazard a psychological analysis of Tolstoy, it would show a man that had trouble suppressing his Id, the basest part of human psyche were all the impulses lay. He is described as having trouble controlling his sexual impulses and acted on them often, which led him to numerous affairs. A person who has a strong predilection for doing what he wants, when he wants will often see a person who exercises restraint as boring or commonplace. In contrast to Tolstoy’s actual life, the reader is given title character, Ivan Ilych’s life to examine. Ivan Ilych is described as even tempered that was neither reckless nor was he completely rigid either. Ivan, gave way to a period of “sensuality and to vanity, and lateral when in the higher classes at school to liberalism, but always keeping within certain limits which were unfailingly marked out by his own instincts. (58)” Having this kind internal, moral fortitude may be something that Tolstoy is intellectually aware of, but it was nothing that he actually practiced himself. Ivan Ilych died at 45, living his life normally and accomplishing nothing but normalcy, something that Tolstoy would find truly horrifying.
Ivan Ilych made his life busy. I believe he was to focused on society, and on what they would say. He loved the attention and been known for the one that "had it all." As it says that Ivan Ilych had the power, he never took advantage of it which would make people like him more. He later met his wife and things changed, reality kicked in. At first they started off good then kids started to be born and problems started. Woman tent to get emotional while pregnancy and so Ivan Ilych didn't like it at all, he didn't even know that can occur during pregnancy. Some kids died, and that will be more negativity into their lifes. It says that the wife kept getting worse so he decided to work more to see his family less. Work was is happy place, everyone "loved him," respected him, he simply had the power. As things would get worse at home, good things will get better at work. At work they made him Assistant Public Prosecutor, which meant good news. Without knowing, Ivan Ilych kept doing what people would think was right. He never tried to fix things with his family whom supposedly he once loved.
Tolstoy might consider Ivan’s life to be horrifying because throughout his entire life Ivan was, for lack of a better word, a conformist to the class system of society. As a young man Ivan is considered the jewel of his family. “He was not so frigid and precise as the eldest son, nor so wild as the youngest. He was the happy mean between them—a shrewd, lively, pleasant, and well-bred man.” Ivan continues this trend while he’s in law school; however we begin to see how he conforms to be accepted into higher society even though he might not totally agree with this. “He was not a toady as a boy, nor later on as a grown-up person; but from his earliest years he was attracted, as a fly to the light, to persons of good standing in the world, assimilated their manners and their views of life, and established friendly relations with them…At school he had committed actions which had struck him beforehand as great vileness, and gave him a feeling of loathing for himself at the very time he was committing them. But later on, perceiving that such actions were committed also by men of good position…he was able, not to regard them as good, but to forget about them completely…” Ivan does things that he does not agree with, but because people of a higher class do them as well he allows himself to disregard his actions completely. The trend of conformity even follows Ivan into his decision to marry his wife Praskovya Fyodorovna. It is stated that at that time Ivan was influenced by both his thoughts that finding a wife of a good social family was what he wanted and also that it was what “persons of higher standing looked upon as the correct thing.” Ivan died at the age of 45, and he certainly worked very hard for his job position and to provide for his family’s lifestyle, however it seems to me that his life was horrifying because in the major portions of his young adult life he simply settled for what he thought was considered to be deemed as socially acceptable.
Tolstoy began to analyze Ivan Ilyich’s life after his death. He remembered Ivan as a child and began to recall all his accomplishments and accolades Ivan had been awarded trough out his life. In Tolstoy’s perspective Ivan was a very hard working man that earned everything through life, working hard all his life to die at a considerably young age. It was this normality of working so hard to get the things he wanted in life that made Tolstoy believe Ivan Ilyich lived a simple and horrifying life. In Tolstoy’s perspective Ivan had no time for himself and or the world around him, he had many good jobs and although he had a wife and kid he eventually grew unhappy with his family and his carrier. Tolstoy believed Ivan was a workaholic who had no time for himself to reflect on his own satisfaction of his accomplishments and died at a young age without achieving anything out of normality, which made Tolstoy manifest a “horrifying” perspective on Ivan’s accomplished life. “Always decorous and always approved by society, which he regarded as the normal life, it would even increase its agreeableness.” In this quote from the story it shows that Ivan married not for love but to fit in with society, an example of his whole life. Ivan accomplished the things he did in life to fit in with society because it was the “right thing” to do.
Ivan Ilyich's life might be considered a horryfying one because in striving incessantly to build and live a life that would be nothing other than comfortable and pleasant, he ended up building a life of routine. He focused so much on ensuring that everything fell into place to make his life an "agreeable" and "pleasurable" one that he prevented himself from really living. He married a woman he was not in love with simply because he felt that it made sense. Inevitably, the marriage was not a happy one, but he didn't do anything about it in order to keep a sort of balance. In chapter 3 the reader starts to see some obsessive tendencies in Ivan Ilyich. When he furnishes the house they're moving into, it is so outstandingly beautiful to him and it becomes even more exciting than his work, which we know was what he loved most. It seems to me the course Ivan Ilyich's life took was set when he became determined to ensure that his life be nothing other than a comfortable one.
Ivan Ilych's life is oddly enough too relatable like it’s almost suspicious. Tolstoy did this on purpose, Ivan is ment to be a reflection of most people in society. The reason Ivan’s life is so "Horrifying" is because he’s a total loser. What I mean by this is that Ivan is a complete and total conformist to what society and his family wanted from him. He wasn’t necessarily a bad man in life, but followed a linear story line in life, never experiencing anything truly extravagant. His friends were purely for his own advances in life, his wife was purely on the basis that "it’s the right this to do". He lacked genuine joy of real life experiences. He chooses to run away from anything that makes him uncomfortable or that may seem unpleasant, the reason this is so sad is because Ivan lacks what makes all humans what we are, we are human because we feel pain, because we understand hardships, because we use the agony we suffer from in real life. As humans we manipulate our traumas and we learn from them, we become enlightened from our dramas this is what makes a beautiful human life, Ivan’s however was nothing of the sort, and he died as a lived, a loser.
Tolstoy might consider Ivan’s “simple and commonplace” life to be “horrifying” as he mentions it at the beginning of chapter two because Ivan’s life started off at the school of jurisprudence which helped him get the position that his father had, but after he got married everything changed for him in a bad way. In paragraph 58 Tolstoy says that Ivan Ilyich “had been educated with his younger brother at the school of jurisprudence” Which informs the reader that Ivan was an educated man and according to Tolstoy "At school he was just the same as he was later on all his life- an intelligent fellow, highly good- humored and sociable, but strict in doing what he considered to be his duty." When Ivan Ilyich finished school he “set off to take the post of secretary on special commissions for the governor of a province, a post which had been obtained for him by his father."(Paragraph 60) but before setting off to take his post as secretary on special commission he bought a "traveling trunk, linen, suits of clothes, shaving and grooming equipment, and traveling blanket, all ordered and purchased at the very best shops.” (Paragraph 60) but after he got married everything changed because Praskovya Fyodorovna did not let him go out and he was just at home.
The reason Tolstoy considered Ivan “simple and commonplace” because he knew he was going to die. He was too busy first of all just working. When he found out about his illness he changed he became mad to the world. Ivan would be so mean to his family everything changed to him. Ivan then realizes that how he has been with everyone and tried to change. You can see that no one liked him in his job you can notice what his supposable friends say about him, “had a group photograph taken and presented him with a silver cigarette case, and he set off to assume his new position.” It was horrifying because he didn’t live his life. He was too busy in his jobs and never had time with his family. Who would do that? It would give you an idea that he wasn’t so much in love with his wife and didn’t care about his kids. Everything was more important than them. Tolstoy might have been the same way as Ivan and he was trying to compare himself with him or he just didn’t want to be like Ivan.
He considered it horrifying because although he was successful by societies standards was just it, he live a life planned out by societies expectations.
Joanna wrote: "Ivan Ilych made his life busy. I believe he was to focused on society, and on what they would say. He loved the attention and been known for the one that "had it all." As it says that Ivan Ilych ha..."I find it interesting that you pointed out Ivan chose to work to get away from his family.
Gilbert wrote: "Tolstoy began to analyze Ivan Ilyich’s life after his death. He remembered Ivan as a child and began to recall all his accomplishments and accolades Ivan had been awarded trough out his life. In To..."Great response Gilbert. I agree with the fact that Ivan Ilych was always trying to impressed society and forgot about his true happiness.
Arlette.Cortez wrote: "I believe that Tolstoy consider Ivan’s life to be simple, and commonplace because he is trying to compare Ivan’s life with a man and now a days also women ordinary life. Always working hard for wha..."Arlette, I like how you have a different perspective in the story. You use today's way in society
Jessica wrote: "Reading chapter two was an eye opening in life. I understand that Ivan Ilych worked really hard to get where he was a Public Prosecutor. He never had time to be with friends and maybe enjoy a coupl..."The lesson then is not to fall into the same trap as Ivan. I think most people are more like Ivan than they want to admit. Whether its choosing the wrong partner just to not be alone, picking a career they don't actually like, people just retreat to what is comfortable and safe.
Jaqueline wrote: "Ivan Ilyich's life might be considered a horryfying one because in striving incessantly to build and live a life that would be nothing other than comfortable and pleasant, he ended up building a li..."Hi, Jaqueline. It occurs to me that Tolstoy didn't name this story "The life of Ivan Ilych." I wonder then, if Ivan's "death" occurred much earlier in Tolstoy's viewpoint. Perhaps when he chose to lead a predictable and simply comfortable life.
In the story,”The Death of Ivan IIyich”, Ivan was so very much successful , at a very young age he was already on law school, he was attracted to people of a high social standing, as described in line five, “ Ivan IIyich was a colleague of gentlemen present and all liked him” . Ivan seemed like he had a simple/common place life cause he had his education he excelled at it he became everything he ever wanted in life in my opinion. He even felt the need to go purchase certain clothes , he found the best circle of legal gentlemen to associate himself with and go out and get married, and that to me was just settleing that to me can be considered miserable ,because everyone knows settling is just not right. When Ivan met Praskovya Fedorovna, he chose her for what she came from; she was acceptable she came from a good family she had what society saw as acceptable in other words making Ivan look good. The reason Tolstoy refers to Ivan’s life as simple yet common place is because he didn’t really get to enjoy his life, he knew he wasn’t happy in his marriage, he knew his marriage was suffering, yet he chose to put his main focus on his career ,Ivan used that as an esacpe you could say he even lost a child. Ivan lived a life of his own he did not care about his personal life which included his family, this to me can be horrifying
Jesus wrote: "Tolstoy might consider Ivan’s “simple and commonplace” life to be “horrifying” as he mentions it at the beginning of chapter two because Ivan’s life started off at the school of jurisprudence which..."I agree with you Jesus Ivan had a lot going for him, he demanded to be successful and do what he had to do in order to be socially accepted, once he got married a lot for him changed.
Janetrendon wrote: "In the story,”The Death of Ivan IIyich”, Ivan was so very much successful , at a very young age he was already on law school, he was attracted to people of a high social standing, as described in l..."I agree with you Janet and Tolstoy, Ivan did had a miserable life he doesn't even have a good relationship with his family. I also like how you mention and explain everything he did for his career.
Alexa wrote: "He considered it horrifying because although he was successful by societies standards was just it, he live a life planned out by societies expectations."hi alexa, i agree with you when you say that Ivan lived a life according to society because from the beginning of chapter 2 Tolstoy starts off by mentioning that the father of ivan send ivan and his brother to the school of jurisprudence to receive education. The father of ivan left his post to ivan because he had received the necessary education to perform the job. When he got the job thats were he met his wife and got married. After that they had problems like regular couples until he passed away.
Jaqueline wrote: "Ivan Ilyich's life might be considered a horryfying one because in striving incessantly to build and live a life that would be nothing other than comfortable and pleasant, he ended up building a li..."hi jaqueline, i agree with you when you mention that Ivan was not in love with the girl he married; he was miserable when he decided to get married to that girl because she started to control his every action.He lived a horrifying life because after he finished school everything was already set for him. The only time Ivan was happy was before he got married.
Gilbert wrote: "Tolstoy began to analyze Ivan Ilyich’s life after his death. He remembered Ivan as a child and began to recall all his accomplishments and accolades Ivan had been awarded trough out his life. In To..."Hello, Gilbert. I too think that Ivan Ilyich was trying to live a correct life, only doing things that made sense and that agreed with everyone else. This prevented him from truly living, and the things that he thought would make his life right ended up making him miserable. That is why Tolstoy describes Ivan Ilyich's life as horrifying.
Jaqueline wrote: "Ivan Ilyich's life might be considered a horryfying one because in striving incessantly to build and live a life that would be nothing other than comfortable and pleasant, he ended up building a li..."I agree, he made everything fall into place so his life became more agreeable..
Leo Tolstoy’s claim, “Ivan Ilych’s life had been most simple and commonplace-and most horrifying”, in Chapter 2 of his literary work, “The Death of Ivan Ilych”, signifies various concepts within this story. Tolstoy describes Ilych’s life to be simple and that of common place because Ilych’s life style was extremely comparable to other men of his up-bringing in the late 1800’s. In other words, it was simply common for a boy whose father was an official of some sort to grow up to be a man of the same lifestyle; beginning his career in, “a post that had been obtained for him by his father.” Consequently as an adult, Ilych wedded and had children; this was very much expected of men in his time period. He did nothing out of the ordinary and can therefore be said to have a simple and common life. Tolstoy claimed Ivan Ilych’s life be most horrifying though; this distinctively signifies a concept brought about throughout the literary piece. Because the death of a man of the age of forty-five was not uncommon in the time period, the colleges of Ilych perceived his death as a wakeup call. Thankful that it was him instead of them but horrified to realize that was all to become of them as well; their death was approaching and their life would be just as simple and as of commonplace as their friend.
Arlette.Cortez wrote: "I believe that Tolstoy consider Ivan’s life to be simple, and commonplace because he is trying to compare Ivan’s life with a man and now a days also women ordinary life. Always working hard for wha..."Hi Arlette! I like that you specified the way you compared Ivan's life to a modern man in society today. I agree with your points as well but I did not see you bring to attention how it could be described as horrifying. I'm sure you did because I see some comparisons though!
Tolstoy considers Ivan's life horrible due of it being so opposite of his. He is a successful man and had done impressing things at an early age that a normal man would take years to accomplish. In the other hand, Ivan its just a normal guy living a normal life. He is successful but there is nothing impressing about his life. In the beginning of the story there is sentence that can be one of the reasons why Tolstoy think Ivan lives a horrible life. "So, on hearing of Ivan Ilych's death, the first thought of each of the gentlemen in the room was of the effect this death might have on the transfer or promotion of themselves or their friends". In this sentence it is shown the selfishness of the colleagues. They are more worried about themselves and they show that they don't really care of Ivan's death. By this example I understand why Tolstoy thinks Ivan has a horrible life. He has been a normal and not impressing guy all his life that after his death, no body remembers him as something good or outstanding he has done. Tolstoy was the opposite of Ivan so he might consider his life horrible. For a normal man, Ivan's life could be consider normal and might not spot anything terrible about it.
When reading chapter two I begin to realize why the author says that Ivan Ilyich’s life had been most simple and commonplace—and most horrifying is because he would work very hard to advance in his career but not having luck in the personal life. Of his siblings it seems that he was the one that worked the hardest to get what he wanted. He worked many jobs and kept advancing in his career. He would always do the right thing or at least what society considers the right thing. He then met Praskovya Fyodorovna and started dating her. She fell in love with him but he was not in love with her. But as he always does the right thing he married her because it was the right thing to do. He did live a simple live, what the American dream is to work hard to achieve what you want. But he never lived his life the way that he wanted he would always do what society thought was the right thing to do. He didn’t live life.
Eric wrote: "by Eric De LeonIn order to see why Tolstoy may consider Ivan’s life horrifying due to its mere simplicity and normalcy, one must then examine its author. Firstly, there was nothing ordinary about ..."
I can agree with your argument , Tolstoy's point of view heavily influenced the development of Ivan Illich's character. The message behind the story becomes more evident when you realize Tolstoy hates the idea of someone being complacent, or being too afraid to experience life because it will cause them slight discomfort. Great analysis of two polar opposites.
Christa wrote: "Tolstoy might consider Ivan’s life to be horrifying because throughout his entire life Ivan was, for lack of a better word, a conformist to the class system of society. As a young man Ivan is consi..."Fantastic argument Christa, Ivan is definitely a conformist, he may not have been a bad man in the sense that he never really did anything bad, but he was a bad man in the sense that he wasted his short life by not doing anything with his life. One could argue that conformity is horrifying at the end of your life, because of how crushing the realization of not living your life to its full potential is crushing on a whole new level. I could only imagine how shitty someone could feel moments before their death knowing it was all a waste.
Tolstoy considered Ivan’s simple and commonplace life horrifying because he always tried his hardest in getting a good job, a nice home, but at the end he was not happy because he did not married someone he loved. Over the years he would rather be at work then being home with his family. Family should always come first because at the end what is the purpose for everything we do if we do not have anyone we love to share our goods with. What was the reason for him to get a good descent home if he was barely there to enjoy it with his family? He lived an ordinary life without doing anything spectacular that he could be grateful for. At the end he kept questioning himself, “Can it be I have not lived as one ought?” (301). Ivan Ilyich just lived his life trying to find comfort to what others might think he was doing well. In reality he should of not cared about others, what matters is what he actually wanted that could have make him happy. By the time he asked himself this question it was too late. That is why Tolstoy thought of his life to be horrifying he was just a normal man who did what he thought he ought to do instead of doing what he really wanted.
Jesus wrote: "When reading chapter two I begin to realize why the author says that Ivan Ilyich’s life had been most simple and commonplace—and most horrifying is because he would work very hard to advance in his..."Jesus you are right about Ivan Ilyich he did not live life. His entire life he kept doing what he though was right, but in reality was that what he wanted? In the end what kept bothering him was that he was not convinced of living the life he thought he ought to live.
Frank Corral wrote: "Ivan Ilych's life is oddly enough too relatable like it’s almost suspicious. Tolstoy did this on purpose, Ivan is ment to be a reflection of most people in society. The reason Ivan’s life is so "Ho..."Frank I like the word conformist to describe Ivan Ilyich. Just because he was a conformist you are right that does not make him a bad man, but it is saddening he did not do as many other things in life that could of fulfilled his life.
I believe that Tolstoy argues that Ivan had a very simple life. Ivan was not a man of adventure , he was completely dedicated to his career. I don’t even think that Ivan really know their family too well, the only thing that matter to him was his job and nothing more. Life to Ivan was just go to work, go home to sleep and come back the next morning to work. There is nothing fun in that his life was “simple” . Even do he may be a very wealthy men, he didn’t really enjoy his fortune. When Ivan dies, he pretty much dies being a lonely person, even do his family and a couple workmates were percent when he died. his friend and realities were only companions in life, there were not really attached to him. That’s what I find being “horrifying”, the fact that everyone was only with by your money and nothing more. Once you get sick the will just make you aside as an important less object. The way Ivan dies, to me it is just the way how rich people dies. It may sound bad or mean but it is the way it is. Just imagine if a president or a king of a country dies. Other presidents and kings will be percent at the burial, just for the fact that he or she was a king. Now if a poor people die, all his true friends and family member are going to be present at the burial but also before he or she actually dies.
