2023 Shortlist

[Phyllis]

Shout out to the moderators: are we going to make bets this year on the round outcomes, as in past years? I know Amy said life has been getting the better of her, so Lauren, can/will you set up that spreadsheet?

[Lauren]

My spreadsheet skills are about 10% of what Amy can do… If I create a basic one for everyone to fill in their guesses, would someone else know how to add in the points calculations/formula part?

[Kyle]

I also thought this year felt especially heavy on... well, not genre fic, but stuff that felt less explicitly "litt-rah-chah", if you know what I mean.

[Karen]

Kyle wrote: "I also thought this year felt especially heavy on... well, not genre fic, but stuff that felt less explicitly "litt-rah-chah", if you know what I mean."

This. My general take of the list is that it has been fine (ouch), but nothing has really knocked my socks off yet and I have never DNF'd so many. I think I have 5 left (yikes), including Seven Moons, which I am very looking forward to, but...So far not many of these are sticking with me, even if I enjoyed the read. I just want a "WOW" and I haven't had a one.

[Alison]

Kyle wrote: "I also thought this year felt especially heavy on... well, not genre fic, but stuff that felt less explicitly "litt-rah-chah", if you know what I mean."

Yes, that is a much better way of wording it. I far prefer a challenging book I didn't particularly like, but that gave me complexity and ideas and character development, over a nice read that is pleasant but doesn't stretch me at all. Especially in the context of a literary competition.

[Phyllis]

Lauren wrote: "My spreadsheet skills are about 10% of what Amy can do… If I create a basic one for everyone to fill in their guesses, would someone else know how to add in the points calculations/formula part?"
Lauren, I think you can literally copy Amy's Google doc spreadsheet from last year as it already contains all of the formulas. Then all you'll need to do is change the book/author/judge names and the seeding, and that should make it work. But holler if you need/want help.

[Lauren]

Great idea, Phyllis! I am about to head to the airport and will be without my laptop for the next five days, so if anyone wants to try it in the meantime, that would be great. Otherwise, I will try to get to that next week.

[Lark]

Phyllis, your thoughtful post on how to classify these books reminds me that these categories are frequently defined more by publishers and their marketing decisions than by the book itself. Outside of "mystery" and "romance" the genres are getting very hazily defined in my brain.

[Alison]

Juliana wrote: "We're in the middle of getting our house ready to sell and moving out of state, so I've had a hard time concentrating on reading...."

That was what I was doing a year ago, so you have all my sympathy. Stay strong and know that as soon as you get your boxes into your new house, while there's still so much to do, it's all so much easier.

[Tim]

Alison wrote: "Yes, that is a much better way of wording it. I far prefer a challenging book I didn't particularly like, but that gave me complexity and ideas and character development, over a nice read that is pleasant but doesn't stretch me at all. Especially in the context of a literary competition. ..."

I enthusiastically agree with this ((view spoiler)[and even find myself, in secret, echoing Jessa Crispin's "where are the books for adults" sometimes, but don't tell anyone I said so, I'm not sure I want that to get out (hide spoiler)]) but ...

I also have to admit that the tournament format (cramming in 18 books in 14 weeks) has pretty often meant that I hit the books with an urgency to finish them, instead of making the effort to take them on their own terms, and that is particularly a problem for the more challenging books.

So if I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure I have the mental space to hit a book a week of challenging literature all right in a row.

I took the time this year to make the effort to sink into the books that I did read, and so I think I engaged better with the books I finished, but it also meant I ran out of steam this year. (Sorry =Violin Conspiracy=! Maybe later....)

All I'm saying is that while I definitely want some serious, challenging material in the tournament, be careful what you wish for....

[Tim]

Lark wrote: "...these categories are frequently defined more by publishers and their marketing decisions than by the book itself..."

And (have you all noticed this, too?) communicated to us through the covers. It feels like the publishers are trying hard to make sure we can judge a book by its cover - not just trying to suggest the content of the book, but trying to suggest, by similarity in art, its genre kin-folk.

[Risa]

I personally regret not reading the books from longest to shortest, because, when you get to the end of this shortlist journey, you have less in the tank for a 600 page tome. (I’m enjoying you, Babel, but I don’t know how I’ll feel 400+ pages from now ….)

On the other hand, the shortest of our shortlist books was one of my favorites, so I’m glad not to have missed it. So, perhaps I (accidentally) calibrated in a manner that made sense, even if it will not turn out to have been one that made me a completist.

[Lark]

Tim wrote: "It feels like the publishers are trying hard to make sure we can judge a book by its cover ..."

Yes and sometimes publishers really send the wrong signal with the cover, and it feels so unfair to the writer, who didn't ever want to be in that box to begin with, but now all their goodreads reviews say "I was expecting this to be chick lit based on the cover and it's lousy chick lit!" or "I was expecting this to be erotic but it's about abuse!" or whatever. The outer wrapping a book gets is so important these days. We're all conditioned. I know I am anyway. I skim the "new acquisitions" online at my library and decide which books to check out solely by the cover (and the font).

[Zachary]

It's now just Me vs The Rabbit Hutch for completion. I didn't think I would even attempt it this year, but I'm glad I did. I just recently really enjoyed Dinosaurs, Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance, and Nightcrawling a lot more than I thought I would!

[Nadine in NY]

Tim wrote: "And (have you all noticed this, too?) communicated to us through the covers. It feels like the publishers are trying hard to make sure we can judge a book by its cover - not just trying to suggest the content of the book, but trying to suggest, by similarity in art, its genre kin-folk..."


Yes, definitely. And I do judge books by their covers, so this can work on me sometimes. Every now and then a fabulous book has a horrible cover, and I wonder "what were the publishers THINKING?? do they HATE this author??" When a certain book is very popular, publishers will copy that cover style all over the place (witness the current popularity of vector art and headless women seen from behind on the best seller lists)

[Karen]

Nadine in NY wrote: "Tim wrote: "And (have you all noticed this, too?) communicated to us through the covers. It feels like the publishers are trying hard to make sure we can judge a book by its cover - not just trying..."

I don't know how the cover art/writer dynamic works at all, or if there even *is* one, but i can't imagine having worked for years on a book only to have a cover you hate or feel like misrepresents the story. anyone know the inside scoop? is that just the cost of doing business as a writer?

[Bretnie]

I just ended the shortlist with The Passenger and was surprised to love it as much as I did.

I think I had more books this year that I actively disliked than in past years, but still came away with several I'd be happy to see win. As always, regretting I didn't read Seven Moons in time for the zombie pick. I don't think T&T&T will need my vote, but my favorite books it wipes out along the way probably will! (of course, who knows how it'll actually go!)

[Lark]

Karen wrote: "anyone know the inside scoop? is that just the cost of doing business as a writer? ..."

Typically the writer does not succeed in getting complete control over the cover design, Also the author almost never gets absolute veto power over a cover design the publisher comes up with.

Contract terms that can be negotiated fairly easily will say something like "author will be consulted on the cover design."

I think the power to avoid cover disasters comes through the author's relationship with their editor, and through how much in agreement the writer and the editor are about what this book is all about. The editor is your internal advocate and -does- typically have veto power over the cover.

A lot of writers don't trust their instincts when it comes to book design, though, or don't feel confident enough to rock the boat even if they really don't like the cover idea.

[Audra]

Zachary wrote: "It's now just Me vs The Rabbit Hutch for completion. I didn't think I would even attempt it this year, but I'm glad I did. I just recently really enjoyed Dinosaurs, Notes on Your Sudden Disappearan..."
Me vs Babel.

[Alison]

It's marketing's job to present the book so it will reach as many readers as possible. I'm more tired of the blocks of bright colors seen on all literary novels, especially by Black and PoC authors. It communicates nothing about the book, but it does look nice on BookTok, I guess.

[Elizabeth]

Alison wrote: "It's marketing's job to present the book so it will reach as many readers as possible. I'm more tired of the blocks of bright colors seen on all literary novels, especially by Black and PoC authors..."

I might be the only person who actually likes those covers. You see them on shelves and even though you can’t tell what the books are about you know they’re likely close to the kind you like reading. And the colors just make me happy to pick up and open every time I start reading. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Alison]

Elizabeth wrote: "You see them on shelves and even though you can’t tell what the books are about you know they’re likely close to the kind you like reading. ..."

The marketing works! And I think this trend will continue since it does make for bright tables and shelves.

[Lauren]

I've heard similar things to Lark's response about authors and their book covers. If you're self-publishing, you get a ton of say, of course, but then you get less the more "traditional" your publishing gets, to where the "better" (ie. bigger publisher) the deal an author gets, the less control they have over their cover. It all depends, of course, and I like Lark's reminder about how editors can support authors if they have major objections to the cover.

I had a friend point to one of the bright-color-blob books and say, "if your novel gets published, don't let them give you one of these covers." LOL I explained how little control I'd likely have on that, but I'm probably neutral on the subject. Could they be more creative? Yes. Do they also tend to signal that I'll likely enjoy the book if I've enjoyed other blob-cover books? Yes, and so I'll allow it. ;)

As far as the 2023 ToB predictions spreadsheet, I just made a copy of Amy's sheet from last year, and it's already breaking my brain... I don't know what to do about the seeding or what should go in column c. And the bracket tab is locked (and also looks challenging to create). Is anyone more spreadsheet-savvy than me willing to work on this? If not, I think I'd just need to make a super simple version without seeding.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...

[Nadine in NY]

Alison wrote: "It's marketing's job to present the book so it will reach as many readers as possible. I'm more tired of the blocks of bright colors seen on all literary novels, especially by Black and PoC authors..."



Like the covers of The Vanishing Half and The Mothers? I LOVED those covers!!!

[Nadine in NY]

Lauren wrote: "I've heard similar things to Lark's response about authors and their book covers. If you're self-publishing, you get a ton of say, of course, but then you get less the more "traditional" your publi..."



I am Excel savvy, not Google Sheets savvy, but I can look. If the tab is locked, only the person with the password can unlock.

I do not have access to this spreadsheet (which is weird because I had access last year), so I requested access. You must have made a copy and have your personal privacy restrictions attached.

[Phyllis]

Okay, it is possible that I might have successfully created a spreadsheet for us to have our bracket predictions competition. Give it a try and see if this works:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...

[Nadine in NY]

Phyllis wrote: "Okay, it is possible that I might have successfully created a spreadsheet for us to have our bracket predictions competition. Give it a try and see if this works:
https://docs.google.com/spreadshee..."



yes that looks like it works. We do not fill in column M, correct ? We fill in columns O and up?

[Phyllis]

Nadine in NY wrote: "yes that looks like it works. We do not fill in column M, correct ? We fill in columns O and up?"
That's correct. Fingers crossed that it operates properly. If all goes well, I'll keep it open until midnight Pacific time on March 7. After that, I'll lock it and we'll see who fares the best.

[Kip]

I replicated the drop down options into every column so future people can just use those, doing pointless google sheets for predicting things with my friends is a bit of a past-time. It will not affect any scoring at all.

From what I can see, everything on the spreadsheet looks in order. I can help with troubleshooting the scoring if it goes wonky.

[Phyllis]

Nadine in NY wrote: "yes that looks like it works. We do not fill in column M, correct ? We fill in columns O and up?"
Thank you, Nadine in NY, for checking.

Kip wrote: "I replicated the drop down options into every column so future people can just use those, doing pointless google sheets for predicting things with my friends is a bit of a past-time. It will not af..."
Perfect! And thank you.

To both of you, please feel free to point out and/or fix anything you see that makes it not operate properly. I could easily have coded something wrong somewhere.

[Kyle]

I put in my predictions, hopefully it didn't jam up anyone else's stuff.

[Phyllis]

Kyle wrote: "I put in my predictions, hopefully it didn't jam up anyone else's stuff."
Looks just dandy so far, Kyle.

[Elizabeth]

Looks great! Thanks, Lauren, Phyllis and Kip. (I basically threw darts. This is the first year I felt no emotion choosing between any of these.)

[Karen]

Lark wrote: "Karen wrote: "anyone know the inside scoop? is that just the cost of doing business as a writer? ..."

Typically the writer does not succeed in getting complete control over the cover design, Also ..." Thx for sharing!

[Bretnie]

Yay thank you for the bracket contest!

[Ellen]

THREE. MORE. TO. GO. In one week, I might add.

I am all over the box like a pinball, trying to figure out what to respond to in here. Yes, I, too, was more or less underwhelmed by this year's list, so I am pinning great and wildly unrealistic hopes on these last three (Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance, Violin Conspiracy, and Seven Moons). But the "more genre" discussion puzzles me, because I'm not sure I would label dystopian/apocalyptic fiction as genre, and a clear 50% of this year's contestants fall into that category. The thing is, over the last 10 years or so, more and more "literary fiction" (which I put in quotation marks because I never quite know what distinguishes it from any other fiction) is based on dystopian and/or apocalyptic thematic material. I think the ToB list is simply reflecting this trend. Anyone? Bueller?

And hooray for the bracket contest, in which, as always, I am bound to end up dead last. But this year, with (so far), like Elizabeth, no emotional attachment to any of the entrants, I'm willing to give it a go. Do we have a separate thread? (scuttles off to check)

[Bretnie]

Ellen wrote: "THREE. MORE. TO. GO. In one week, I might add.

I am all over the box like a pinball, trying to figure out what to respond to in here. Yes, I, too, was more or less underwhelmed by this year's lis..."

Link is above, but I'll set up a separate thread to make sure people see it!

For what it's worth Ellen, Seven Moons was my second favorite!

[Adam]

Officially have read the entirety of the shortlist after finishing Babel yesterday!

Now to sit with my thoughts a bit and figure out how I’d rank them and what I want to predict for the tournament bracket. I will say I felt more favorably toward the 2023 TOB books than many of you did, with several books surprising me with how much more I liked them than I expected to, albeit with quite a few meh books in there too.

[Audra]

ooof, I'll have to draw everything out before I tackle this spreadsheet.

[Jan]

I’m now a completist, for probably the second or third time in 12 or so years. My favorites are The Seven Moons, Mercury Pictures, Babel and Tomorrow. My least favorite, although I don’t regret reading it, is Manhunt. Cheers!

[Phyllis]

Same in terms of favorites, Jan. I did turn out to also really like My Volcano, strange as it was. My least favorite were The Violin Conspiracy and Mouth to Mouth. Like you, I did not enjoy but don’t regret reading Manhunt.

[Kyle]

Are we going to change the "currently reading" books set for the group? Or will that happen when the tournament starts?

[Risa]

Hats off to you Completists! Very impressive. If Volcano makes it out of the play-in round, I’ll read it. For now, I still have 300+ pages of Babel to go ….

[Lark]

I'm feeling goofy not to know that answer to this, after following the tournament for so many years, but when do we think the first judgment gets put up? Is it today?

[Adam]

FYI, Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance appears to be currently on sale for $2.99 for Kindle.

[Jan]

Tournament starts March 8, Lark.

[Lark]

Thank you, Jan!

[Kyle]

Only a week left!

[Gwendolyn]

What a relief! I still have one more book to go and want to finish it before the fun starts! The book I have left is one of the play-in round books, so it will be up first in the competition.

[Karen]

Same. I thought it started today! If I can get through 2 books by Monday, I might be able to get to Nightcrawling, which is the only other one I'm attempting (sorry, Manhunt). But am I really a completist when I DNF'd so. darn. many? I won't have much to contribute, so looking forward to learning others' takes on books I just couldn't with this year.