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Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow
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Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin - Jan 2023 Adult / Non-Fiction BOM (starts 2 Jan)
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21.) Do you think that Sadie’s attitude toward Sam is realistic? How has it changed over time and especially after the loss of Marx?
I think it's unfair and a cop out to blame everything on him. There were enough mistakes between the two of them to go around. Grief does strange things to people, which likely plays a part in some of her reactions. But still. And I find it so sad Sam has never met Naomi, what a missed opportunity.
22.) What do you think of the game Pioneers? What do you think were Sam’s reasons for creating it? Do you think that Sadie really was unaware of the similarities of her and Sam’s life to what was portrayed in Friendship? Even in Emily’s Will she admits that the game helped her (“When I came here I was as drained of hearts as I have ever been, and the tedium of Friendship and the kindness of its non-strangers gave me life.”)
It was interesting as a concept. I could actually see something like that being really popular. I think she was just in denial and she used it to be righteously butthurt about things.
23.) And, Dov is back!! Dov calls Sadie on her relationship with Sam. He tells her “Here is a think to admit to yourself, if you’re able: that there will never be a person who can mean as much to her as Sam.” He adds that she needs to let go of the garbage (which he changes to “your perfectly legitimate grievances”) and get back to the business of making and playing games together. Finally as he is leaving, he says, “To build a world for someone seems a romantic thing from where I stand.” Amidst all the banter he admits that he is an awful person. What did you think of all these revelations? Do you agree with him? Does it change your opinion of him or redeem him at all?
I do agree with him and he's probably the only person that could get away with saying all of that to Sadie's face. I'm not sure even Marx could said that to her. It made me realize he's more self aware than I first thought. But he's a horrid person and isn't redeemed but mainly because I don't think he wants to be redeemed.
24.) How was the end of the story? Did it end how you think is should have? What are your thoughts on Sam and Sadie now that you have seen their lives play out?
I think the ending was appropriate for the characters. Overall, I don't like Sadie all that much she's not a very nice person. And has zero concept of forgiveness which for me makes it hard to forgive her. Sam I think ended up in a good place and there's enough to give me hope their lives will continue to get better.
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DQs Day 1I finally got the audiobook after being in the hold queue for ages!
1.) I love stereograms!!! Not a question, just saying. Are any of you gamers? How did you start? I'm a casual gamer. I have a steam account for the Untitled Goose Game, play apps on my phone, and solitaire games.
2.) What are your first impressions of Sam and Sadie? Do you think Sadie should have told Sam about the community service? Have you ever fallen out with a friend for something that should have been said? I think both of them are really interesting characters and I want to see what happens to them as they grow up. Sadie should have told him about the community service, but kids are notorious for not saying important things and messing up. Yes, I have fallen out with friends over dumb things.
3.) Have any of you had a job or career or area of study where the male to female ratio is skewed towards one or the other? How was it working in that situation? In HS I was the only girl in the drafting class. It was so awful that I transferred out after the second semester because the boys did everything they could to get me to cry. This was always when the teacher left the room so there was no proof.
4.) What do you think of Solution as a concept? If you were to design a game for Dov’s class, what do you think it would be? I think it's a pretty interesting concept, however I would be very upset at the n*z* themes. As for what I'd design, it would probably be a sim-type game.
5.) Who wishes their college roommates were like Marx?
We don’t know Sadie very well yet, but do you think it was Dov leaving that sent her into a depression? I really like Marx, he's a good kid. I assumed that it was Dov that caused the depression.
DQs Day 26.) The section opens with a failed attempt to see The Glass Flowers. Had you heard of these before? Do you want to go see them now? What did you think of Sadie's story and of Sam wanting to publicize a different narrative? No, I've never heard of the glass flowers and sure, I'd go see them if I was in the area.
7.) "There is a time for any fledgling artist where one's taste exceeds one's abilities. The only way to get through it is to make things any way." Do you agree with this quote? Do you think it applies outside of the art/design world? It's a good quote, and applies to hobbies in general.
8.) I thought the appropriation discussion was interesting. What did you think about what was said in the interview and accusations about the game appropriating Japanese culture? Japanese aren't as concerned about appropriation like the West is, so I think it's a rather moot point. If they had appropriated, say, Native American imagery, that might have been an issue, but the Japanese love that Americans love their culture (for the most part).
9.) Dov, thoughts about this guy? How long do you think he'll stick around in the story? FYI in my head he's Dov the Douche. I think he's a DB, but I think he genuinely sees the talent that Sadie has and is going to help her along with her career at this time, but that may change later.
10.) How do you like the structure of the story with random jumping through time and interviews mixed in? Is it effective? I am really enjoying the story as it's being presented. The time jumping element was something I was aware of before reading, so I was not shocked when it happened. I think it gives insight into the characters.
DQs Day 3: Unfair Games / Both Sides / Pivot11. Dov the D-bag is gone! But with one final spanner in the works that gums up Sam & Sadie's relationship. What do you think about the different conflicts and how they are resolved? (thinking of the choice to go with Opus, and the design and creative compromises that leads to; the revelation that Sadie has about Sam's manipulation of her relationship with Dov to get his engine; the creative process around the development of Both Sides) I think that Sadie was being a bit ridiculous and jumping to conclusions without talking to Sam. She tends to do that when she feels she's been slighted and it spins into some very hateful thinking. Sam should have mentioned he knew about Sadie's relationship with Dov, but I don't see him having manipulated Sadie. Plus, Sadie should have had more empathy about what Sam was going through with his foot.
12. The section "Both Sides" has a different chapter structure. Did you notice the change before reading any of the chapters or not? How did when you notice it affect your reading and understanding of Sadie & Sam's relationship? Did you think it was better than the way the rest of the book has been presenting the different views? I'm listening to an audiobook, so it took awhile to notice the structure had changed, but I didn't catch the deeper meaning because I didn't see the change. I've been enjoying the story so far, so I have no opinion about the presentation of the views being better or not.
13. We end this section with Sam and Sadie still far from understanding each other, and a new emotional link being forged between Sadie Marx, with Sam (who I was reading as ace-spectrum) seeming to want a physical relationship with Sadie. Do these changing relationships ring true for you? I agree with your assessment, since I knew that Sadie and Marx were going to get together since they stayed in the apartment together making the first video game.
14. There is a lot in this section about Sam trying to come to terms with his amputation. Did the inclusion of some of the graphic pain and issues he was going through work for you? Do you understand Sam better? Yes, I thought this was a great section and it really put into perspective how Sam doesn't always see what's going on around him because he's dealing with chronic pain and, later, phantom pain. I can't remember reading a novel that goes into a person becoming an amputee, and I thought it was very well done.
15. Entirely optional: When I was looking up a video to link on the home page a got a whole flock of Shakespearean actors reading the Macbeth soliloquy (under the spoiler below). Why do you think Zevin chose that phrase to be used as the title for the book? Does it suggest a trajectory for the story? I hadn't remembered that the title was from MacBeth, which highlights the tragedy portions thus far. I think this will not end well
Angie ☯'s BOM ParticipationDay 1 ~ https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
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Day 5 ~ Wrote DQs
Hello guys :) So far has been a fascinating book!1.) I love stereograms!!! Not a question, just saying. Are any of you gamers? How did you start?
I'm not like a GAMER, but I do game sometimes, especially in the Nintendo Switch. I am more a person of chill games. Also, I started playing in the PlayStation 1, don't remember my age, but probably 10 or 11.
2.) What are your first impressions of Sam and Sadie? Do you think Sadie should have told Sam about the community service? Have you ever fallen out with a friend for something that should have been said?
One of my first thoughts is that they were both lonely child, especially Sadie. Even tho she has the bigger family. It shouldn't be, but I guess is something normal in the situation her family was regarding her sister.
About the community service, Sadie has her reasons and she doesn't keep that by herself for a bad reason or so, so I don't particularly think that she should have told Sam about it.
3.) Have any of you had a job or career or area of study where the male to female ratio is skewed towards one or the other? How was it working in that situation?
Yes. I am a Computer Science graduate, and in the field as well as during university they were most male. It's not bad, so far I don't experienced anything negative about it.
4.) What do you think of Solution as a concept? If you were to design a game for Dov’s class, what do you think it would be?
I've liked the concept of Solution because the WWII and his events are a subject that always interested me.
5.) Who wishes their college roommates were like Marx?
Absolutelly!! haha
We don’t know Sadie very well yet, but do you think it was Dov leaving that sent her into a depression?
Until this question I never doubted that this would be the reason lol
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Day 5:
DQs Day 4(VI: Marriages - VII: The NPC, p. 249-304)
16. The "Marriages" section opens with a description of Sam's avatar, Mayor Mazer, and its popularity/mass appeal. We've seen many moments of characters compared to video game characters (Sam compared, perhaps erroneously, to Ichigo) or crafting their own avatars (Marx creating his avatar for the D&D-like game he plays in the hotel in Tokyo). What do you think the author is asking us to consider when drawing these connections? Is Mayor Mazer simply another one of Sam's "masks," as Sadie describes them, or is there something deeper being explored here? I didn't consider that fact that the avatars might have a deeper meaning. I don't know if Sam's Mayor Mazer is anything but an online persona or if it's deeper. It might be considering that he gets "political" in the game world, where he does not in life. I don't know.
17. Should Sadie and Marx have told Sam when they started seeing each other? How did you feel about Sam's reaction? Yes, they should have told Sam when they became serious instead of hiding it from him. Sam is an adult and it would have been the respectful thing to do since they claim to love him so much. Sam's reaction was reasonable since he didn't tell Sadie how he felt about her, and to suddenly come to terms with the reality that he missed his chance.
18. What did you think about the stylistic change to 2nd person POV when Marx falls into the coma? What did this shift do for you as a reader, and what did it illuminate about Marx's character? I really liked this change of style and thought that it was really well written, especially bringing back the Strawberry Thief imagery that his mother loved so much. I think it shows just how much of a gamer that Marx really is and it's his way of coming to terms with what has happened to him as an NPC. Marx is my favorite of the three, and his death hit me hard.
19. I was initially suspicious of Marx, but he's become my favorite character besides Sadie... It's been a while since a book made me cry, but I sobbed at the end of this section. Are you as wrecked as I am? Yes! I am!
20. (totally optional!) After finishing "The NPC" section, I returned to the opening paragraph. What do we think of this strange and otherworldly vignette (p. 283), and how does it compare to the section's poetic ending? Is the woman on the bike Zoe, and the horse being tamed Sadie? How did you interpret these images? I'm listening to the audiobook and can't go back and "reread" sections.
DQs Day 5 ~ VIII: Our Infinite Days - X: Freights and Grooves21.) Do you think that Sadie’s attitude toward Sam is realistic? How has it changed over time and especially after the loss of Marx? Sadie has always blamed things on Sam that weren't necessarily his fault, and that is sometimes how humans are. I don't think it's changed so much, but the loss of Marx nearly destroyed her.
22.) What do you think of the game Pioneers? What do you think were Sam’s reasons for creating it? Do you think that Sadie really was unaware of the similarities of her and Sam’s life to what was portrayed in Friendship? Even in Emily’s Will she admits that the game helped her (“When I came here I was as drained of hearts as I have ever been, and the tedium of Friendship and the kindness of its non-strangers gave me life.”) I thought the game was interesting, and definitely was something that Sam made for Sadie. I think she subconsciously recognized the similarities, which was why she loved playing the game, however she wasn't ready to come to terms with her relationship with Same, which is why she got angry and left.
23.) And, Dov is back!! Dov calls Sadie on her relationship with Sam. He tells her “Here is a think to admit to yourself, if you’re able: that there will never be a person who can mean as much to her as Sam.” He adds that she needs to let go of the garbage (which he changes to “your perfectly legitimate grievances”) and get back to the business of making and playing games together. Finally as he is leaving, he says, “To build a world for someone seems a romantic thing from where I stand.” Amidst all the banter he admits that he is an awful person. What did you think of all these revelations? Do you agree with him? Does it change your opinion of him or redeem him at all? I think that Dov has changed a bit over the years, and in some ways, not at all. He's awful, but he's good to Sadie despite the past. I do agree with Dov that it was a romantic gesture to create the game for her. I think that if Sadie has forgiven him, then he's been redeemed.
24.) How was the end of the story? Did it end how you think is should have? What are your thoughts on Sam and Sadie now that you have seen their lives play out? I really liked this novel. It was refreshing and interesting, and I liked how it ended. People change as they grow up, maturing and becoming wiser. I hope that both Sam and Sadie have grown past the strife they've caused, and they now seem to understand each other. I liked the ending and it feels hopeful going forward.
DQs Day 11.) I love stereograms!!! Not a question, just saying. Are any of you gamers? How did you start?
I wouldn't class myself as a gamer but over the years I have played a number of PC games. Recently I have become more interested in playing modern board games, I like the interaction and tactile element to a physical game.
2.) What are your first impressions of Sam and Sadie? Do you think Sadie should have told Sam about the community service? Have you ever fallen out with a friend for something that should have been said?
I think Sam seems a more sympathetic character than Sadie. Yes ethically Sadie should have disclosed the community service to Sam. But I get how difficult that would be . Sadie did really appreciate Sam as a friend and probably knew she risked loosing that friendship
3.) Have any of you had a job or career or area of study where the male to female ratio is skewed towards one or the other? How was it working in that situation?
As a nurse I have always worked in an environment female dominated. It has not been a problem for me.
4.) What do you think of Solution as a concept? If you were to design a game for Dov’s class, what do you think it would be?
I would like to design a game with a literary or historical theme. I thought Solution was an interesting concept but when I discussed it with my 15yr old son he thought it wouldn't sell as most people play video games to have fun.
5.) Who wishes their college roommates were like Marx?
We don’t know Sadie very well yet, but do you think it was Dov leaving that sent her into a depression?
I liked Marx's generosity of spirit but maybe having a room mate as perfect as Marx in so many ways could be intimidating for a young maybe slightly insecure student. I do not like Dov he abused his position and Sadie made a lot of excuses for him. But I guess her depression was related to him leaving
1.) I love stereograms!!! Not a question, just saying. Are any of you gamers? How did you start?I like to play mobile games while watching TV or listening to audiobooks but not sat down and properly immersed myself in a game since childhood.
2.) What are your first impressions of Sam and Sadie? Do you think Sadie should have told Sam about the community service? Have you ever fallen out with a friend for something that should have been said?
This falling out was really sad as it was so avoidable but exactly the sort of thing a teen might do. I related to Sadie's strive to be a high achiever
3.) Have any of you had a job or career or area of study where the male to female ratio is skewed towards one or the other? How was it working in that situation?
I work in academic psychiatry and the skew is annoying with overwhelming female junior staff and male senior staff. I have had some amazing male mentors but hope the tide will be changing soon.
4.) What do you think of Solution as a concept? If you were to design a game for Dov’s class, what do you think it would be?
Solution is exactly the type of media that I love, media that makes you think and can even be a bit uncomfortable, I thought it was a great concept.
5.) Who wishes their college roommates were like Marx?
We don’t know Sadie very well yet, but do you think it was Dov leaving that sent her into a depression?
In the UK roomates are a bit different to the US as you don't actually share a room but I did share a kitchen and bathroom with 11 other people about half of which I am still close friends with today. I loved Marx as a character and his relationship with Sam and Sadie. I have finished the book so won't comment too much on the second part of the question.
6.) The section opens with a failed attempt to see The Glass Flowers. Had you heard of these before? Do you want to go see them now? What did you think of Sadie's story and of Sam wanting to publicize a different narrative?
I have not heard of them and I doubt I will ever go to Massachusetts but I did look them up online. You could already see at this point in the story how Sam wants to start building a persona that is not entirely true to himself
7.) "There is a time for any fledgling artist where one's taste exceeds one's abilities. The only way to get through it is to make things any way." Do you agree with this quote? Do you think it applies outside of the art/design world?
Yes definitely, imposter syndrome happens when you know so much about an area that you are painfully aware of how much you do not know
8.) I thought the appropriation discussion was interesting. What did you think about what was said in the interview and accusations about the game appropriating Japanese culture?
Yes, I think they were right that people are much more aware of this these days and if Ichigo had been released later this disucssions would have been more at the forefront
9.) Dov, thoughts about this guy? How long do you think he'll stick around in the story? FYI in my head he's Dov the Douche.
Dov is a douche and he only gets worse as the story moves on. But saying that, I can see why Sadie is attracted to him and I hate to say it but I would be too!
10.) How do you like the structure of the story with random jumping through time and interviews mixed in? Is it effective?
The structure of this book is one of the many things that makes it great. Scenes are grouped by theme rather than chronologically and it really emphasises the themes of the novel and foreshadows what is to come
11. Dov the D-bag is gone! But with one final spanner in the works that gumms up Sam & Sadie's relationship. What do you think about the different conflicts and how they are resolved? (thinking of the choice to go with Opus, and the design and creative compromises that leads to; the revelation that Sadie has about Sam's manipulation of her relationship with Dov to get his engine; the creative process around the development of Both Sides)
I think Sadie's anger at Sam is a massive leap as it wasn't his fault that she got back together with Dov and she always could have said no to getting him involved. She is deferring her mistakes onto Sam and just needs to communicate with him
12. The section "Both Sides" has a different chapter structure. Did you notice the change before reading any of the chapters or not? How did when you notice it affect your reading and understanding of Sadie & Sam's relationship? Did you think it was better than the way the rest of the book has been presenting the different views?
I like how this section reflected the contrasting worlds of the game and also how Sam and Sadie were living parallel but separate lives.
13. We end this section with Sam and Sadie still far from understanding each other, and a new emotional link being forged between Sadie Marx, with Sam (who I was reading as ace-spectrum) seeming to want a physical relationship with Sadie. Do these changing relationships ring true for you?
I didn't read Sam as ace, just painfully self conscious due to his disability. I can understand Sadie falling for Marx, who wouldn't!
14. There is a lot in this section about Sam trying to come to terms with his amputation. Did the inclusion of some of the graphic pain and issues he was going through work for you? Do you understand Sam better?
This section really made me feel for Sam and explains a lot of his actions throughout the book. It is easy to forget the extra effort disabled people sometimes need to make just to get through the day.
15. Entirely optional: When I was looking up a video to link on the home page a got a whole flock of Shakespearean actors reading the Macbeth soliloquy (under the spoiler below). Why do you think Zevin chose that phrase to be used as the title for the book? Does it suggest a trajectory for the story? Incidentally, one of the vids was for a young (and sexy!) Sir Ian McKellen doing a masterclass analysis of the soliloquy, that is worth watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbZC...
This soliloquy links into how you are when playing a game. For that time, you are the main character and your actions affect the world around you, but when the game finishes, the world resets and the impact is gone. It pairs nicely with the NPC chapter
16. The "Marriages" section opens with a description of Sam's avatar, Mayor Mazer, and its popularity/mass appeal. We've seen many moments of characters compared to video game characters (Sam compared, perhaps erroneously, to Ichigo) or crafting their own avatars (Marx creating his avatar for the D&D-like game he plays in the hotel in Tokyo). What do you think the author is asking us to consider when drawing these connections? Is Mayor Mazer simply another one of Sam's "masks," as Sadie describes them, or is there something deeper being explored here?
Mayor Mazer has the confidence and popularity that Sam always wished he could have and I fear he's losing himself a bit in the character at this point
17. Should Sadie and Marx have told Sam when they started seeing each other? How did you feel about Sam's reaction?
Yes they should have told him. I would also be hurt if my friends kept something like that from me for so long. I can understand why he's upset. I don't think its even really to do with his feelings for Sadie but his fears that their friendship dynamic is going to change
18. What did you think about the stylistic change to 2nd person POV when Marx falls into the coma? What did this shift do for you as a reader, and what did it illuminate about Marx's character?
I usually hate second person, but this section needed to be distinct and I thought it was beautiful.
19. I was initially suspicious of Marx, but he's become my favorite character besides Sadie... It's been a while since a book made me cry, but I sobbed at the end of this section. Are you as wrecked as I am?
Yes, I was really shocked and saddened by what happened to Marx and especially the aftermath for Sadie, Sam and the employees at Unfair Games.
B>21.) Do you think that Sadie’s attitude toward Sam is realistic? How has it changed over time and especially after the loss of Marx?
I really feel that Sadie treated Sam poorly throughout the book and it was always him trying really hard to reconcile. They both made mistakes but he always apologised and sought forgiveness, she did not. A lot of their issues would have been solved with better communication.
22.) What do you think of the game Pioneers? What do you think were Sam’s reasons for creating it? Do you think that Sadie really was unaware of the similarities of her and Sam’s life to what was portrayed in Friendship? Even in Emily’s Will she admits that the game helped her (“When I came here I was as drained of hearts as I have ever been, and the tedium of Friendship and the kindness of its non-strangers gave me life.”)
I loved the change of pace in this section and didn't twig at all that the doctor was Sam, although in hindsight I can see all the signs. Creating this world for Sadie was a great idea as it really did seem to help her work through her trauma and re-enter into life.
23.) And, Dov is back!! Dov calls Sadie on her relationship with Sam. He tells her “Here is a think to admit to yourself, if you’re able: that there will never be a person who can mean as much to her as Sam.” He adds that she needs to let go of the garbage (which he changes to “your perfectly legitimate grievances”) and get back to the business of making and playing games together. Finally as he is leaving, he says, “To build a world for someone seems a romantic thing from where I stand.” Amidst all the banter he admits that he is an awful person. What did you think of all these revelations? Do you agree with him? Does it change your opinion of him or redeem him at all?
I don't think he was redeemed but I also think he was the only person who Sadie would have listened to due to her deep respect for him that still remained despite all they'd been through.
24.) How was the end of the story? Did it end how you think is should have? What are your thoughts on Sam and Sadie now that you have seen their lives play out?
I thought it ended well. I am glad that nothing romantic happened between Sam and Sadie but that they are going to continue working together, everything closed well and overall I really enjoyed this book.
(VI: Marriages - VII: The NPC, p. 249-304)
16. The "Marriages" section opens with a description of Sam's avatar, Mayor Mazer, and its popularity/mass appeal. We've seen many moments of characters compared to video game characters (Sam compared, perhaps erroneously, to Ichigo) or crafting their own avatars (Marx creating his avatar for the D&D-like game he plays in the hotel in Tokyo). What do you think the author is asking us to consider when drawing these connections? Is Mayor Mazer simply another one of Sam's "masks," as Sadie describes them, or is there something deeper being explored here?
I think online or virtual situations can be freeing and allow people to explore certain aspects of themselves and not hide as much in order to fit in. There is the dark side to this too, like people who troll on the internet.
I do agree with others that the lack of discussion of Sadie's avatars is interesting.
17. Should Sadie and Marx have told Sam when they started seeing each other? How did you feel about Sam's reaction?
Yes, if you have nothing to be ashamed of, why are you hiding? And from a professional perspective is does create a serious power imbalance that hiding the relationship for so long just made worse. Sam's reaction was a bit extra but he was lied to by the 2 people he should be able to count on for the truth. I don't buy into Same really wanting a romantical relationship with Sadie. He reads more as ace than anything.
18. What did you think about the stylistic change to 2nd person POV when Marx falls into the coma? What did this shift do for you as a reader, and what did it illuminate about Marx's character?
I thought it was very effective.
19. I was initially suspicious of Marx, but he's become my favorite character besides Sadie... It's been a while since a book made me cry, but I sobbed at the end of this section. Are you as wrecked as I am?
Yes, he was one of the few characters I actually like in this book.
20. (totally optional!) After finishing "The NPC" section, I returned to the opening paragraph. What do we think of this strange and otherworldly vignette (p. 283), and how does it compare to the section's poetic ending? Is the woman on the bike Zoe, and the horse being tamed Sadie? How did you interpret these images?
It was weird and I read this section late when I was pretty tired. It was a bit strange and might make more sense to me if I ever reread the book down the road.