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Vita Nostra
Group Reads Discussions 2022
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"Vita Nostra" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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The magic for me was sort of beside the point except to underscore the idea that this isn't the real world, I think I got wrapped up most in the idea that abuse, pain, suffering and real danger were the only way to get to where you are supposed to be?
I thought the setting was brilliant, a dark, snowy, wasteland somewhere in the middle of Russia that doesn't lend any distractions from school.
I loved being off balance trying to figure out what exactly was going on and wondering where Sasha was going to end up.
I just finished this today after a week of [unplanned] binging. Part of me wants to let it all sink in - because WOW - but I somehow don't think it's going to get clearer - like pointillism in book form.I agree with Hank - I really struggle with categorizing this as a story about magic. It is so much more! Like a modern existentialist or transcendentalist take that questions institutionalism and the value of relationships. I found it fascinating how even though Sasha abhorred her professors, she still tried to relate to them, understand their motives and empathize. There are so many layers.
Sasha regurgitating coins after completing increasingly amoral tasks and later growing wings to try to escape seemed less about the bizarre events themselves and more about her need for deep metamorphosis to survive. That's what was so captivating, for me.
I'm still unsure about the end...
What I do know is that I absolutely loved the translation work. I couldn't put it down, but I also found it very hard to explain to others without sounding mad.
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Love the 'cost' idea and I can't wait to hear what others say about the end too...may try to reread with the end in mind.
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The ending was a bible reference: "In the beginning there was the word." or something like that.
...so the fully actualized words are gods? IDK
Answers (kind of)
1. I'm not sure the 'magic system' was fully congruent from beginning to end. 3/4 of the book heavily implied a sort of alien body/mind control. Then it shifted to being advanced super-language. In which case the metamorphosis (though awesome) did not jive for me logically.
2. The setting was a dark vibe that matched the story.
@Hank- I very much got the impression that is WAS the real world. It's a very urbane fantasy trope to have magic secrets under the surface but in plain sight of regular humanity.
3-5.
In the beginning (LOL) I started to dislike the book. It started off a bit too slow then quickly got pretentious in the annoying way that Night Circus and Middle Game did.
For Ryan, I persevered and the story grew on me. I didn't expect a book this existential to explain everything by the end, but I do feel like it shifted tracks around Sasha's year 3. It drew me out to reimagine the impetus behind the institution. The one outstanding question that actually bothers me is WHY did words have to manifest? Besides just they can.
All of that sounds critical, but I overall liked the story.
On the magic system: In my view, the whole thing is complicated (confused?) by the fact that the novel first makes clear that the magic system cannot be described in words, and then proceeds to use words, in the most literal sense, as the foundational metaphor for explaining how it all works. Which I think you could reasonably read as inconsistency, but I think it is reasonable to give the authors more credit, and say that even within the universe of the novel, most of what we're reading about the magic system is metaphorical. Language is used as a symbol to represent the elemental units of information that make up the universe, but the actual magic itself is not done through language at all, it is done through *thought*, through the conceptualization of things that cannot be spoken. That said, I also agree with Sarah and Hank that it is not really a novel about magic; that it is more interested in rooting around in the interiority of the narrator, and in explicating certain themes around violence, learning, institutionalization, the relationship between fear and love, etc.
I thought it was really exceptional.
I finished this book last night and really liked it, although I think this is worth a reread because I know I didn't feel like I totally understood the "magic" element especially in how it connected with words. So I feel like a reread would really help with that aspect of it. I liked the setting, I think the idea of the students being isolated in this tiny town seems important in that they aren't having lives outside of the school or distractions. The people in the town seem to have no connection to the school. I also felt that the train travel was an interesting element to the story. That Sasha's deepest human connection was with Kostya, they made the transition from their known reality of their previous lives into their new one being students at the school was interesting. There are so many metaphors that you can pull this story, this is just one of the minor few!
At times I really liked Sasha and at others I thought she was a challenge to understand why she did some of the things she did, but I was drawn into her journey and wanted to understand what she would become.
I enjoyed this book, I wonder if there will be translations of the rest of the series because I would love to see where this story goes. I wonder what is going on with the monster she sees when she enters the other universe? What happens now that she is a password?
Great pick, I don't know that this book would have come across my radar without this bookclub and I'm very appreciative to have new, interesting reads to find!
Just finished after binging almost half of the book in one sitting, so my thoughts are still quite jumbled.Overall I really liked the concept of Speech and Words, time loops in the context of grammatical constructs, etc. I wish there was more explanation on how it all works in the scope of the world's functioning (and what the purpose of the institute is, in that regard). I'm hoping that the answers are coming in the sequels, if they are ever getting translated.
Most of the time I also liked Sasha as a character. Strangely, I could really relate to the existential dilemmas during her second year, while she was reprocessing the meaning of the world during the destruction phase and feeling more and more detached from it as a result (in a way, I think it kind of matches the weird, cerebral feels that this book itself gives me?). At other times though, it annoys me how she just can't control her impulses and makes the same mistake over, over, and over again. It got old pretty fast.
As to the message behind the story, I feel like the whole "using fear to control and manipulate" thing came out a bit forced. To me, Kozenikov was the only person who had ever taken real action to induce fear. The rest of the teachers might be a bit mean, but honestly I can see any of them exist in real life (or maybe that's just my perspective because I grew up in China and had to deal with a pretty sadistic system of its own). And even for Kozenikov, I wasn't sure throughout the first 80% or so of the book whether he was really the one enforcing punishment on the students or not. Because obviously, this is a world where unknown magic exists, so how would a student know that their actions didn't simply lead to tragedies in their family due to the rules of the universe?
For the same reason, I thought the ending came a bit out of the blue. Sasha's rejection during the final test seemed to be meant as a statement that she chooses love over fear, but I just don't see a strong enough buildup to that twist.
So I suppose I didn't find this book as dark as I expected it to be. It gave off a more "communist dystopian realistic fiction" vibe to me, if that could be a thing. But I did enjoy it a lot for the sci-fi/fantasy elements.
I agree with Ann, I need a reread to fully understand the magic system, although I feel that it's constraining and a bit inaccurate to label it that way. I've always loved extensive worldbuilding, so I'm super curious to see where the authors are going with all the Word stuff.I wasn't as bothered by Sasha's apparent naivety? stupidity? penchant for repeatedly making the same mistake? because that's kind of what young adults do. Yes, it probably gets old for readers of a fictional story, but I found that I identified with her a lot—challenging academics, pressure to succeed (ahh those straight As), wonder at the fruits of your learning, and (doxxing myself a little lol) age range, hence the not learning from my mistakes :) So I never noticed until some pointed it out here lol.
I probably should have picked up more about the intellectual philosophy stuff, especially since we just finished studying existentialism, but I suppose I'll remember that for a reread. As for the ending, I was a little lost over how abrupt it seemed. I assume the authors designed it with the intention of writing more books, though.
Ultimately, I was completely engrossed by Sasha's experiences of school and academia. The parts that spoke the most to me were always waxing poetic (in the best way) about her awe at finally understanding Word. I deeply relate to the amazement of mastering an entire world of knowledge, of exploring new ideas and possibilities, of understanding a difficult concept so thoroughly it becomes part of you. I'm romanticizing it quite a lot but I do love the thrill of learning haha
@Tesseract I don't think you are romanticizing it, because I relate as well :) That's why the second-year Sasha resonates so much with me. I was a workaholic when I was in school, and I've totally had those times when I got my head so deep into some complex problems/thoughts that I felt like it changed my perspective of the world. Not to such a crazy extent though, thankfully.But that was also why the ending felt unnatural to me. The way I understood Sasha, she craved knowledge and the chance to use it, and she didn't seem too bothered by the purpose or consequence of that knowledge (she never truly questioned how they were supposed to use the power of Words, what effect it might have on the physical world that they knew, etc. The main conflict between her and the teachers had always been "why do you force me to learn this", not "what is the end goal of learning this"). I relate to that kind of thought process as well, which is why I was caught off guard when that ending came and she deliberately failed the test. That decision seemed somewhat contradictory to her character.
Also, this is just my very personal opinion here, but I feel like Sasha's penchant for repeatedly making the same mistake is more of a depiction of addiction rather than a natural act of being a young adult. Descriptions like "I'll just do it for a second, just a little bit. I can stop myself", and Kozenikov's statement about "the girl just can't stop, and we don't ask for the impossible", make me think that this is a representation of forced addiction (she didn't want to go to this school; they forced her, and now she's addicted to that whole system and can't stop learning). But of course, this only makes the ending even more contradictory ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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CC wrote: "which is why I was caught off guard when that ending came and she deliberately failed the test. That decision seemed somewhat contradictory to her character. ..."It wasn't clear to me that she did fail the exam. Because what she is refusing to do is to reverberate... and when she refuses to reverberate and "fails"...she then immediately reverberates (and passes?).
I am hoping the sequel will clear things up! (On sale in English March 14, 2023!)
Also @CC, I agree with you re: addiction. Sasha wasn't making the same mistake over and over as, like, a character flaw, she was not able to control herself, and was very much acting like an addict. I'm very curious for people's thoughts / theories on Farit. Was he evil? Was he human? Even though he used fear to control the students on one level, on another level he gave them a level of control over their lives that no real person has. If you don't study, your loved ones are hurt. But if you do study, your loved ones are *not* hurt. In reality, of course, there is nothing we can do to ensure that the people we love aren't hurt, don't get sick, aren't in an accident. Of course, it would be (and is) torture to take on that responsibility. But I felt like, by the end, it was all so much more complicated than it had seemed at the beginning.
Also what was the deal with Lisa? I had trouble fitting her into my frame of understanding for the novel... like, what does she represent? What does she mean? Although I liked her almost as much as Sasha, somehow, and would have liked to see more of her.
I totally agree about Lisa. It’s like we almost forget about her by year three. I found her to be a perfect foil to Sasha - some perspective about perhaps how sheltered Sasha was and how good she actually had it. Also showed that there was another route to ‘success’ other than studying until you almost drive yourself crazy.
Finished. Not human, but once was. Not fully aware of what her teachers are and what Sasha is becoming, verb, but is becoming Password. Have to wait until March to see where all this is headed.Meanwhile from my days as a draftsman I often had to render in 2 dimensions the illusion of 3. Wonder if I can truely do that to make my 2d drawings actual 3 dimensions over time....or 4 dimensions. It's magic.
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BJ wrote: "It wasn't clear to me that she did fail the exam. Because what she is refusing to do is to reverberate... and when she refuses to reverberate and "fails"...she then immediately reverberates (and passes?)"My interpretation is that she reverberated in the end but not in the way the teachers wanted her to, so she still failed the test. Though not quite sure what exactly that meant... like, she's still alive, right? But maybe in a different way than what we perceive as "alive", given that she went to say goodbye to her mom? Was there any punishment for failing the exam like she expected, or was she simply so special that her reverberation changed reality completely (which seems to be hinted at in the second book's blurb)?
re: Farit, I feel like I still don't understand this world enough to be able to judge anyone. We still don't know what the roles of Words are, how they affect reality, why they need to reverberate, etc. Maybe Farit is enforcing the chosen ones to fulfill some necessary destiny, in which case I don't know if we can really say he's "evil" just because his methods are somewhat extreme.
Also not sure what exactly Portnov and Dima were either... Obviously they are not humans, but what were they and where did they come from? If humans are Words, potentially spoken by some other type of existence in a different dimension, then did these nonhuman teachers also come from that dimension?
Hank wrote: "I thought the setting was brilliant, a dark, snowy, wasteland somewhere in the middle of Russia that doesn't lend any distractions from school.."Just a quick correction - as I noted in no spoilers thread it is left intentionally vague where the Institute is located, except for the rather general European part of ex-USSR
CC wrote: "...I'm hoping that the answers are coming in the sequels, if they are ever getting translated...."It is complicated. "Assassin of Reality" is coming out soon and is the 2nd book in the series "Vita Nostra". It continues Sasha's story. I'll probably read it because I enjoyed the first book.
But it is book 4 of the Russian-language "Metamorphosis" series. Books 2 and 3 of that series have no announced translations. Also, they don't involve Sasha (and maybe not even the school?)
I tried to edit the book pages and series pages on this site to reflect this weird double-series thing. But it is still confusing.
Melanie wrote: "The ending was a bible reference: "In the beginning there was the word." or something like that. ""True. Specifically the "Gospel of John", which is rather different than the other 3 gospels, and was always downplayed in my Baptist church as I was growing up.
"John" was one influence for Gnostic Christians. One of their beliefs is that the world we see around us is an illusion created by a demiurge, and not the real world. I won't try to explain that more, because I'm not very knowledgeable on that subject.
A general note about English translation: there are several (2 or 3 I cannot recall atm) quotes in the book, referenced. In the original text there was one more - from a translation of A Wizard of Earthsea (where words are important!) but supposedly not to get a copyright dispute it was replaced by something by the authors. The quote was very short, about a hundred words, maybe even less.Also in the original, these quotes weren't footnoted, a kind of Easter eggs for fans
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ah I wasn't aware of all these things about the translations, I'm glad for this discussion :)CC wrote: "Also not sure what exactly Portnov and Dima were either... Obviously they are not humans, but what were they and where did they come from? If humans are Words, potentially spoken by some other typ..."
Yes, I'm super curious about the origin of teachers who were never human. I thought from the beginning that Dima was odd for being so normal, so I had an "I knew it!" moment when he was revealed to be like the other teachers too.
I have a work colleague, who is a pretty avid reader. So, we often talk about what we are currently reading. How to describe this book in a brief comment. I suggested that she imagine a very dark Russian version of Harry Potter. The more I think about it the better I like that. Special children, only instead of a fancy invitation by owl, you get a dark glassed KGB like agent who threatens your life and family. Instead of loving supportive “Houses” you get sadistic instructors whose job is to “deconstruct” your personality so that they can rebuilt in their desired form. Of course never knowing what their ultimate purpose is. So this is what it was like to go to Durmstrang.
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Chris wrote: "I suggested that she imagine a very dark Russian version of Harry Potter."I actually made the same comparison upon reviewing it last year - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
About a 'KGB feel' regarding Farit Kozhennikov - while yes, mirror glasses and brutality may suggest it but within the USSR they rarely operated this way - instead to stress their state nature they would much more likely take you in one of their official building, make you wait and guess, etc.
I felt that this story was very much written in what I would call ‘classical Russian style’, in the way it concentrated on Sasha’s feelings, reactions and POV to explore the system she live in and the amazing events that were happening to, and around her. Early on, I wondered whether I would be able to maintain my interest in what I felt was a slow moving if imaginative story. However, I need not have worried. I was particularly impressed with the way the supporting characters developing feelings and maturity were accurately portrayed in a fairly concise fashion. The involvement of Sasha’s mother, although not directly telling us a great deal of her history gives us a strong sense of the single parent. One trying to ensure that her daughter receives a caring upbringing a good start in life educationally, and a safe home to fall back on, while still seeking love, companionship and stability for herself.
My view of Farit Kozhennikov is that, regardless of his objectives, he was an abuser of Sasha, through his controlling behaviour by means of threats to her mother, and by extension, her mother’s new partner and baby. As has been mentioned, his abuse of Lisa took a different form, as if he coldly tailored his method to the individual victim’s personality.
I did wonder if Kozhennikov would be revealed as Sasha's father, given his initial targeting of her, and later, the way that her relationship with his son was abruptly cut off, but I discarded that theory when they reunited.
Finally, I found Sasha became an increasingly unsympathetic character as she matured and her powers increased. Her treatment of the first years can only be described as bullying. I found her particularly callous in her treatment of Natasha, whose best clothing she confiscated. Perhaps survival in her environment, both the Soviet, and the boarding school systems, meant that empathy would make her look vulnerable.
I look forward to reading the next book, and hopefully discovering what exactly the teachers purpose is, and what part Sasha, as the Password, is expected to play.
E.D. wrote: "I look forward to reading the next book, and hopefully discovering what exactly the teachers purpose is, and what part Sasha, as the Password, is expected to play."The first question hasn't been clearly answered in the sequel but there is a lot of how Sasha's new powers are used. I reviewed the 2nd book here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
note: I summarize the opening (about 2% of the story) and outline some plot paths w/o massive spoilers.
Oleksander wrote: I summarize the opening (about 2% of the story) and outline some plot paths w/o massive spoilers. Thanks for this. Your review does give me the impression that the second book has a different style to the first. I will give it a try in due course.
E.D. wrote: "Thanks for this. "My pleasure. The style is similar but the authors are older and after all the first book was initially written as a standalone, therefore the sequel while interesting doesn't really have the same umph! because readers are aware who Sasha is, etc., the wonder of novel approach is missing. The difference between good and great
Books 2 and 3 if the series tell other stories, as far as I understood from the blurbs, absolutely not related to Sashka.Book 4 seems to continue Alexandra's story. Maybe that's why they decided to jump right to it with the translation?
This one was not to my taste. After an intriguing start, the Institute itself was disappointing. The descriptions of the lessons, the classroom scenes, and the homework were achingly dull. A lesson would be difficult, Sasha would try to learn it and fail X times, until she finally succeeded. The stern teacher would be stern, and the nice teacher would be nice.Still, the mystery of what the Institute was really about held some promise. The twist--that Sasha and the others were parts of speech or grammatical structures--was a letdown. I suppose that with sufficient followup, that could be a fascinating world to explore, but we just aren't shown it. We just don't know by the end what it means for someone to be a verb or a pronoun. What does this language magic have to do with the professions that those who graduate will take up? What is its relationship to the rest of society?
Some motifs clearly relate to Soviet repression, but I don't see any sustained criticism. If we judge by outcomes, the methods of the Institute seem to be justified. At the end even Farit Kozhennikov is in good standing by the story's reckoning.
Chris wrote: "We just don't know by the end what it means for someone to be a verb or a pronoun...."I didn't really see this as a "twist" or the answer to a mystery, but rather just as the further development of a series of metaphors that the teachers at the school use to discuss what they're doing, which has something to do with manipulating the world at the level of information, but arguably the most important characteristic of which is its indescribably, which makes language as its central metaphor so curious (and brilliant, if you're inclined to like this kind of nonsense :)
Chris wrote: "At the end even Farit Kozhennikov is in good standing by the story's reckoning."
Here again, I feel like what annoyed you about the novel is what interested me about it. Rather than produce a sustained criticism of fascistic educational institutions, which has been done about ten million times, it makes us constantly question what the nature of the institution is, whether its methods are justified, who is and isn't in good standing. It is almost a novel about second guessing at times.
I am not a type of reader who usually enjoys grimdark/dark fantasy and I get easily ticked by abusive characters who never end up facing justice. But I ended up liking Farit as a character (not as a person or whatever he really was - an important distinction). He served perfectly as a tool to facilitate the process of transformation of the students at the Institute. He understood the people's individual limits and he knew how to break them without completely crushing them. He was abhorrent, but also fascinating. What I loved the most in the novel, though, was the atmosphere. Every time I hit "play" on the audiobook, I felt completely submerged in the created world. It was dark, unsettling, stifling - and yet, sooooo good!
I will be adding Dyachenkos to the list of my favourite authors. They don't have too many books translated into English, but I just discovered that around 15 of their novels were translated into Polish. My TBR just grew again.
I agree with Banshee. It was more the feel of the story than the plot that sucked me in. Like you, Chris, I normally wouldn’t be interested in a book that was this slow moving and had a very short climactic end comparatively. But It’s reminiscent at least to me of Albert Camus where the sensations of Sasha’s experiences pull you in until you almost feel them too. I could see how that wouldn’t be for everyone, especially if the narrator doesn’t gel with you.
The story broke down at the end for me. Words, grammar, Biblical references, hypertext, password seemed pretty lame to me. It kept my attention to the end but I didn’t understand the ending. Lots of nice buildup but ultimately unsatisfying.
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I unfortunately did not finish this book in time to really discuss with everyone, but this book was definitely different. I would not have picked it up on my own. I honestly felt like this book is how it feels to do shrooms... But I enjoyed the story! I thought the mystery surrounding this book was exciting and it moved at a pace that really just slowly broke the ice. The ending was a bit... eh, but I did enjoy it. I will say the strangeness in this book was really the biggest grab for me. I needed to know WHY the entire time I listened to this book. WHY did Sasha have to do strange things? WHY did she vomit coins? WHY was the language she was reading in the school so strange?
This book was a solid 4 stars for me, as I really enjoyed it!
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Would people who just seem to make things happen be verbs? You know the kind of person I mean. Those bundles of energy that charm you out of your solitary reading nook to do something new.
I really hope the soon to be released sequel helps to clarify the idea for me.
Ryan wrote: "I really hope the soon to be released sequel helps to clarify the idea for me."The sequel shows what it means to be a word, but doesn't clarify much. Also 'true speech' doesn't directly links to any real language structure, so it isn't exactly that someone is a personification of say word 'pretty'
I was drawn into this book at the beginning with the tasks, the mysterious school, the almost (but never quite) impossible goals. It made me think about the film Whiplash where the teacher was so terrible to the student, but you have to ask is that the price for creating greatness? But I found myself caring less & less as the book went on. Don’t think I would continue with this series, but I did appreciate the depiction of school life & self discovery. I really enjoy stories about self actualization, becoming the person you are meant to be & change, so that I liked. The romantic parts with Kostya & Yegor i wasn’t interested in. I’m not really a fan of the trend in fantasy books to magic magic systems easily understood (it’s magic! It should be mysterious and non-trivially easy to comprehend!) so I liked that the magic here was so alien and weird (and sorta why I liked the book less as it tried to explain the magic was actually grammar based — “I’m a compound noun, you are a subjunctive verb” etc.).So overall a mixed bag and 3 stars, but I’m glad I read it.
Was curious throughout about the reference to Saco & Vanzetti as that crime took place near my hometown, but that’s neither here nor there.
A few questions to get us started:
1. What did you think of the magic?
2. What did you think of the setting?
3. What did you think of the character's journey?
4. What worked or didn't for you?
5. Overall thoughts?
Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions