December 2022 - A Thousand Ships

[Jayme, Moderator]

One of the group reads for December is A Thousand Ships by Natalie Haynes. Please discuss the book in this thread.

Katrisa will be leading the discussion.

In order to receive a badge you must:
1. have read the book before or during December 2022.
2. discussed it in this thread. Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favorite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc. You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread. Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.
3. Report that you have read AND discussed the book in the reporting thread (include a brief summary of what you thought of the book).

A note on discussion: Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favorite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc.

In addition to this, the group reads are meant to be a "read along" so it is preferable that you discuss the book as you read rather than wait until you've finished the book.

And finally, discussion is not about just listing your thoughts. Please interact with the other group members, comment on their thoughts, and if they comment on yours, respond to them. This is what makes a good book discussion!

You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread.

Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.

General Rules:
1. Please mark your spoilers with the spoiler tags along with mentioning what stage of the book you are at so other's don't get a nasty shock. Chapter numbers/titles are generally best as they are the same across all formats and editions. See our spoiler policy
2. The book may be combined with the Year Long Challenge, Topplers, and Monthly Challenges.

Happy reading!

[Janice, Moderator]

I will start this when I finish the book I'm currently reading.

[Marnie]

I started this this morning and am through chapter 4. I’m listening to the audiobook version which is read by the author. Her voice is beautiful. (view spoiler)[ At first I thought she was being a bit monotone but the events she’s retelling are about war and I think the tone is effective. It reminds me of interviews I’ve seen on the news. Where people are retelling these awful events and seem so calm but you can see the devastation on their face- makes it more horrific... if that makes any sense. (hide spoiler)]

[Katrisa]

I will be starting this book on Monday. I'm glad to hear the narrator is good! I'll be listening as well.

[Jenn]

My hold is in at the library and will try to get it picked up this evening 🤞

[Sharon]

I am starting this tomorrow on Audible.

[Peggy]

I listened to this back in March. I enjoyed it, as I mostly do with Greek mythology. I think I had to get used to the narrator too.

[Marnie]

I am up to chapter 10.

With audiobooks, I’m getting the pronunciation of character’s names but not the spelling which I know I’d completely butcher.

(view spoiler)[ I’m feeling the sadness of the war more so in this book than I typically do reading mythology. I think hearing this from women’s perspective shifts the emotion for me. (hide spoiler)]

[Peggy]

I remember with some of the characters it took me quite some time to figure out who they were! I always read mythology in paper books and even though I read in English, I still read the names as I was taught how to pronounce them in Dutch. So then when listening in English, it took me some time to make some of the connections, lol!

[Katrisa]

I am back in town now and will be starting this book tomorrow! I was in a place with no wifi and only had my phone so I didn't want to start until I could post with spoiler tags. I am looking forward to this! I love Greek mythology and the retellings of the stories.

[Sharon]

I started this last night and finished the first two chapters. It was enough to create my interest and keep me listening, but I was so sleepy and didn’t want to miss anything that I put off my comments until today.
(view spoiler)[I have to admit that I have never thought about what it must have been like to be a resident of Troy when the destruction began. I felt the mood grow from concern to fright to panic. The sheer fact of not knowing where loved ones were, especially my child, would have been terrible. I thought the author and narrator, so far have created a sense of the confusion and horror that must have taken place. Then, finding out that Cruesa dies that night was startling and very sad. (hide spoiler)]

Having read a bit more, I am more deeply engrossed in the story. (view spoiler)[I found the chapter of the Amazonian woman, whose name I couldn’t begin to spell, such a sad story. The thought of the loss of her twin accidentally by her own hand, was both tragic and moving. That her women followed her to the battlefield, knowing that they would be slain so that she could confront Achilles, was a testament to grief, regret and loyalty. It hasn’t been long since I have read Circe. So, the chapter from Penelope’s point of view was very interesting. It left me with the memory that she would have run over her own feet with the plow rather than go to war away from her family (as Odysseus did) that will stay with me. Spartan woman, for sure. (hide spoiler)]

[Marnie]

I am through chapter 15.

Firstly, Sharon I agree completely with your comment. It is compelling to hear “the other side.”

I was on a plane listening to this book so didn’t have wi-fi handy.

Chapter 14 (view spoiler)[ this whole chapter was so intense. When Laodamea caressed the bronze statue I felt her emotions. So very well written. (hide spoiler)]

[Katrisa]

I am through ch 6 and just started ch 7.

Marnie - (view spoiler)[ I agree with you that the narrator of the audiobook adds to the mood with her tone of voice. Her voice is soothing, but also seems to impart that sense of disbelief that we feel when something awful happens. (hide spoiler)]

I really like when retellings are from a different point of view. This story is also retold by Pat Barker in The Silence of the Girls and The Women of Troy both of which I enjoyed. There is going to be a third one too, but it doesn't come out for a couple years yet.

Sharon - (view spoiler)[ I also thought that the book did a really good job describing the the mounting panic and chaos as the city was sacked. And I think there is some truth to the idea that the Greeks probably had more motive then just Helen for going to war and that she was more of an excuse (hide spoiler)]

[Sharon]

Marnie, I agree! It seems a bit far fetched to believe that all of that carnage was due to Helen and for not more political reasons.

I have finished Chapter 10. (view spoiler)[ Since I am listening to this book and do not have a hard copy, I feel a bit frustrated that I have no idea how to spell names! Brieis and Chryseis! What a strength demonstrated between these two women, although for sure, Briseis was so impressive given all that she had lost. This chapter made me think about all the women through the ages that have been victims of aggressors. What a cost they paid (and pay) for the battles lost. Their price as great perhaps, as the men that fought for their country, kingdom, fiefdom, whatever. Both are sacrifices to be sure, but living after is a hard fate. I was glad that Chryseis’s father had her ransomed as it showed on some level the love he had for his child. (hide spoiler)]

[Katrisa]

I am through ch 10 now. (view spoiler)[ I really enjoyed today's chapters. Penelope's chapter was brief but powerful! I loved how she led into the story of what she would have done in Odysseus' place by telling Telemachus that she was more clever than Odysseus

The chapter about Briseis and Chryseis has been my favorite so far. The quiet dignity of both women in the face of their losses and captivity was quite moving. The Silence of the Girls centers around Briseis and the other captive Trojan women.
This book really does a good job making me want to kick Agamemnon square in the junk! (hide spoiler)]

[Sharon]

Perfectly said, Katrisa!
I have just finished Chapter 17. (view spoiler)[ my goodness, the chapter with Laodamia, I think and her anguish at the loss of her husband was moving. Mostly, because of the sweet gift of the blacksmith. Such a bittersweet visit from her dead husband…

I cannot imagine striking down my daughter on her wedding day to appease the gods. I know that we look at things differently, but what a horrible way to go! I’m impressed that Iphigenia wasn’t panicked. She was very vain, but no one deserves that. (It did remind me of that scene is Game of Thrones when Stannis slaughters his daughter. I guess the myths are much used still today.)

I actually kind of liked Helen. I didn’t think I would, but she certainly handled the distain of the other Trojan women well.

And finally…Hera, Athene and Aphrodite: I suppose this pettiness and careless acts of distain to human lives fits into my viewpoint of how the “gods” acted. Over a ball…I think it was probably just boredom. Paris is a jerk. (hide spoiler)]

[Marnie]

Sharon wrote: "Marnie, I agree! It seems a bit far fetched to believe that all of that carnage was due to Helen and for not more political reasons.

I have finished Chapter 10. [spoilers removed]"

I have found the chapter titles on the audio to be extremely helpful with spelling.

[Marnie]

Chapter 38 Penelope is my favorite

(view spoiler)[ Her letter to Odyssey is fantastic, seriously pack sand you wandering jerk. (hide spoiler)]
So good I listened to it twice.

[Melissa]

Just starting this is one today :)

[Janice, Moderator]

I started it today and finished to the end of Chapter 11.

It's a quick read and I'm glad the story of Troy and the Trojan horse is familiar to me. I like that it tells the story from the women's side.

[Janice, Moderator]

Katrisa wrote: "I am through ch 10 now. I really enjoyed today's chapters. Penelope's chapter was brief but powerful! I loved how she led into the story of what she would have done in Odysseus' place by telling T..."

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. Briseis is probably my favourite so far.

[Katrisa]

I am in ch 24 now. One thing I am finding a bit odd is the flow of the stories. We are weaving in and out of time and the events of the Illiad. I am not opposed to it - I am enjoying this book very much. I just wonder what the reason for telling the stories in that manner is. I wonder if Haynes is doing that to highlight the women's stories outside of the narrative that has been told for centuries.

I LOVED the bit (view spoiler)[ where Calliope is talking about being a muse for epic poets and bristles at men forgetting that they serve the muses and not the other way around and then goes on say that epic stories have collateral damage and that other pains than the battlefield deserve to be heard. (hide spoiler)]

[Katrisa]

"Sharon wrote: "I have finished Chapter 10. [spoilers removed]"
..."

I agree that (view spoiler)[Haynes made Helen a much more likeable character than she is typically portrayed as. I like that she refused to accept total blame and let Paris (and those around him who allowed him to be indulged) go blame-free. And it was great that they right into the golden apple story to show just how vain and petty the gods are while mortals suffer and die (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Marnie made me look again and I was able to download the audiobook from my library. I will start tomorrow.

[Janice, Moderator]

That's great Cherie.

[Marnie]

Cherie I hope you enjoy it too. I’m especially curious what you think of chapter 38.

[Janice, Moderator]

I finished to the end of Chapter 17. This feels like many short stories, loosely connected. I rather enjoyed the (view spoiler)[ squabbling between Aphrodite and Alethe over who has ownership over the bowl/apple. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Sharon wrote: "Perfectly said, Katrisa!
I have just finished Chapter 17. ..."

Was it a (view spoiler)[bowl or ball? The audio version sounds like bowl. Still, you are right about the gods. To squabble over something like that is frivolous. They weren't little children of 3 or 4 who haven't learned how to share. The gods in many works are portrayed as not caring about humans and treat them more like insects that are bothersome.

After watching the movie Troy with Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom, I really liked Paris. The book certainly portrays Paris in a different light. It could be that I was swooning over Paris more because the role was played by Orlando.

Achilles really was an arrogant, merciless man. (hide spoiler)]

[Katrisa]

Janice wrote: \
I have just finished Chapter 17. ..."Was it a ..."

(view spoiler)[ They were saying ball. It's a golden apple. They talk about it more later on too - like in the chapters I just finished on my way home tonight! (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Thanks Katrisa.

[Katrisa]

I am up through ch 33. I am looking forward to your favorite chapter tomorrow Marnie!

(view spoiler)[ Today I was most impressed with the Hecabe chapter. I love her poise and her revenge was awesome. I was a little surprised that Odysseus let her have her revenge. I really like retellings from the women's point of view since in the originals the women are always portrayed as evil or backdrops. Like, of course Clytemnestra is going to be pissed at her husband and seek revenge! He pretended he was going to marry her off and instead sacrificed her for a fair wind!!!! If anyone wants to read a good retelling of that family story House of Names is good. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I have listened through chapter fifteen. I agree with Janice that it does feel almost like a series of short stories. There are so many things that I recognize, hero’s, Gods, other people that I remember now that I have enough Greek history under my belt. There was a long time that I knew nothing because I was so science fiction/fantasy focused. I am so grateful to this group and the opportunities that have been served up for me to expand my reading.

I was not ensnared with the author’s voice at first, but I am finally falling into sync. I feel the need to re-listen to lock in what I’m hearing. I have the ebook on hold. I like the woman’s views.

[Sharon]

I am now on Chapter 30. I want to continue but thought I should stop a minute before I forget my thoughts. (view spoiler)[ I love the tone of Penelope’s letters to Odysseus. I think they were well suited. I love the sarcastic, almost mocking tone of her letters as her waiting endures while he continues his exploits. I did appreciate him though, at his “service” to Hecabe as he allowed her vengeance for her son. And what a vengeance it was! Such a horrible way for a young boy to die, especially when betrayed by what was thought to be a friend. At least his two sons were killed quickly although the king was left to suffer blindly and with his heartache…especially since his betrayal came home to roost. I feel sorry for Cassandra. It does seem an awful curse. And Helen is just plain scary. (hide spoiler)]

I agree with Cherie that the narrator did not at first seem appealing. But, she certainly has grown on me and I am quite satisfied with her ability to capture so much emotion. I like the way the book is set up, especially being told from the viewpoint of women.

[Marnie]

What I liked about the narrator’s voice was that it was so calm. For me the events were so dramatic that if she read it excitedly it would have been too much. Also it left me room to imagine the scene. I am a mood reader so it could also have been that.

[Cherie]

I have not read any spoilers yet.
I re-started the audiobook and took notes as I listened to chapters 1-9 again.

I had to laugh during Calliope's rant about "the poet" in chapter 1. It went right over my head that she did not say who it was. (view spoiler)[I think she must be talking about Homer? So, she is his muse, if I am understanding what she is going on about wanting an offering. Good grief! (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 2 - Creusa (view spoiler)[I think this is the introduction of the whole story "from the women's view". I found parts hard to figure out in the first run through, but much easier to understand the second time. Year 10 of the Trojan war and the Greeks have left the HORSE and sailed away. I still cannot get over the fact that the Trojans did not just burn the stupid thing! I was impressed that she remined so calm, waking up with the city burning and all that she went through to get to the gate and keep out of the Greek guy's hands. This chapter set the scene for the first time for the author to tell what is happening now and then go back in time to go over what happened prior. Also setting us up to examine how "men experienced a different war than the women". Duh! (hide spoiler)]

I really wish I had a text copy. (view spoiler)[ I still cannot figure out the name of the guy that they found hiding on the shore after the Greeks left. I guess he was left to help convince the Trojans to take the HORSE inside the gates. sigh (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 3 - The Trojan Women
I cannot imagine suffering through any of it. (view spoiler)[ "men lost their lives, but women lost everything". I missed some of the names but figured out who most of the ones were that were talked about. The Greeks went through the town killing the men and collecting the women and valuables to be divided up. (hide spoiler)]

More later, but I need to finish some email tasks for work.
I am taking a 4 week sabbatical from work and today is my last day working until Jan 9th.

[Janice, Moderator]

I finished to the end of Chapter 38.

Poor Penelope. (view spoiler)[ She is so exasperated by her husband. It's amazing she hasn't given up on him and his antics years ago. I'm listening to the author narrate this book and she really gives it her all when she's voicing Penelope - almost like she empathizes. (hide spoiler)]

Trojan Women. (view spoiler)[ Their existence is so piteous when they are taken as slaves. The Greeks were so cruel and merciless. I felt quite a bit of anger in the relating of the womens' stories. One line that really hit home was, "This was womens' war as much as it was mens'", except women were defenceless. (hide spoiler)]

Gods (view spoiler)[ They are like children with human emotions run amok. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

I was like Cherie. It took me awhile to get used to the author's voice. The biggest drawback for me was the constant sighing.

[Katrisa]

I am nearly finished with the book - I have like a chapter and a half, but I am sick and am going to lay down here in a sec, but wanted to get my thoughts down first.
Marnie - I loved ch 38! Penelope's tone is the best!
(view spoiler)[ I was so glad that they ended up telling Clytemnestra's revenge story! And one of my favorite parts of the whole book was her conversation with Cassandra. It almost made me tear up a bit when Cassandra was so shocked that someone listened to her and believed her.
Penelope was fantastic! Her prayer to Athene was so good. (hide spoiler)]
Overall I loved the book. I thought the narrator did such a great job with her tone. Her delivery really brought home the pain the women were feeling by not overdoing it. It reminded me of like when something is too terrible, you just sort of zombie walk through it.

[Janice, Moderator]

Marnie wrote: "Chapter 38 Penelope is my favorite

So good I listened to it twice."

LOL! It was good, wasn't it? I laughed at the part where she talked (view spoiler)[ about her young, hard, guests and threatened payback for his unfaithfulness. (hide spoiler)]

[Katrisa]

I just saw that Haynes has a retelling of Medusa coming out in Feb. I will definitely be checking that one out!

[Janice, Moderator]

I finished reading the book. My big takeaway is how the author told the story from the woman's point of view. The stories were tragic. While I'm not sure how much of the story is history, I'm certain the politics and results of wars were factual.

[Sharon]

I have finished this book. I liked the point of view of the war of Trow being told from the women’s point of view. (view spoiler)[ Some characters and chapters will stay with me longer than others although each has its place. It is hard to ignore Cassandra’s story and the true curse of knowing the future and not being believed! As well, knowing your own death would be a terrible cross to bear! And Andromache’s heartbreak at her infant son being thrown from the walls of Troy to his death was heartrending. I did enjoy the picture of Gaia as the “earth bearer” who bears us all…our wants, needs, and very existence. And war being the answer to relieve her of burdens was chilling. (hide spoiler)] All in all, I am so glad that I read the book. It was a book that I think will stay with me a bit. And that’s a good thing.

[Marnie]

I want to read the spoilers but I can’t turn on my Wi-Fi until I finish my library book that is overdue ( yes I’m gaming the system lol)

I agree that this book veered from the original story but I didn’t mind that at all.

[Katrisa]

Cherie wrote: "I really wish I had a text copy. (view spoiler)."

I also had the audio but I looked up his name, it is Sinon

[Katrisa]

Cherie wrote: "More later, but I need to finish some email tasks for work.
I am taking a 4 week sabbatical from work and today is my last day working until Jan 9th"

Enjoy your sabbatical!!!

[Katrisa]

Sharon wrote: "I have finished this book. I liked the point of view of the war of Trow being told from the women’s point of view. [spoilers removed] All in all, I am so glad that I read the book. It was a book th..."

I agree that (view spoiler)[ the Gaia section was chilling! And gave a very different perspective. The gods are portrayed so petty most of the time in this book, to see the war from the perspective of an overburdened Mother Earth was sobering (hide spoiler)]

[Jenn]

I am just done chapter 14 - Laodamia, and am loving all of the stories so far.

It has a The Mists of Avalon vibe, the telling of a known chunk of history from a new and feminine viewpoint is amazing!!! (view spoiler)[ It feels like they are all taking control, or as much as they can in their individual circumstances, of their lives and destinies. Talk about a different age, now we have a bunch of nitwits making duck lips, and adding cat ears and whiskers while they twerk for the camera . . . Admittedly, they aren't as likely to be written about, but it makes me wonder if we have slid so far that that is all that is left? (hide spoiler)]

Ohhhh, Medusa, I will definitely keep a watch out for that.

[Katrisa]

I'm glad you're enjoying the book Jenn! One of my favorite things about this book is the poise and quiet power the women have - even when their positions are lacking in power - quite different than the nitwits!

[Janice, Moderator]

I'm looking forward to Medusa as well Jenn. It's already out, but the audiobook comes out in Feb. We may have to do a buddy read.

[Jenn]

Oh my, just finished chapter 21 - Calliope

Wow!!! She does not mince words. (view spoiler)["he will tell it, or he will tell nothing at all. They have waited long enough for their turn." "Is Oenone less of a hero than Menalaus? He loses his wife so he stirs up an army to bring her back, creating countless widows, orphans, and slaves. Oenone loses her husband and she raises their son. Which of those is the more heroic act? (hide spoiler)] Just wow. (view spoiler)[ Not that I am a fan of rolling over, but there is no equality in that either, Paris (married) took Helen (married) home as his new wife and put two countries at war for 10 years, and she is the scanky whore? If it had been Helen taking Paris she would probably still have been the crazy b****, and he would have been what trading up, changing his mind? (hide spoiler)]