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PHILOSOPHY AND POLITICS
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK 1, 2. AND 3 - ON POLITICS - INTRODUCTION: Thinking About Politics and CHAPTER ONE - Why Herodotus - (March 16th, 2015 through March 29th, 2015) - No Spoilers, please
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Karen
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Mar 31, 2015 05:13PM
Just a question. Have we started on the next section yet? I can't seem to find the next thread.
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Karen wrote: "Just a question. Have we started on the next section yet? I can't seem to find the next thread."I cannot find it either.
That makes me feel better, I thought I was missing something.
Sorry I'm late to the party!Someone earlier asked about Persian empire (called Achaemenid empire or the first Perisan empire, which is Cyrus/Darius's/Xerces's/Artaxerces's). I highly recommend two books, both of which discuss some bits from Herodotus.
Tom Holland's Persian Fire is quite good, nice easy read.
Tom Holland
And another great book, shorter, but with great pictures of things, including Cyrus II's tomb is
Lindsay H. Allen(no photo). Both go into items including tactics, alliances, conquests, etc.
I have not had time to begin and stay current with the reading due to massive upheaval in my life. We bought a new home and are moving soon and I've been going crazy cleaning out closets and basements and attics, doing massive amounts of loan paperwork, and trying to get ready for a quick move. This is the book that most interests me, and since the schedule is fairly slow. I will try to make time to participate. Hope it is good!
Have we moved onto Chapter 2 yet? Is it on this thread or a new one?
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Welcome back Bentley! You were missed. Hope all is well now.
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Thanks Bentley. Family must always come first. I hope that everything is all right. Best wishes.
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Mark wrote: "Thanks Bentley. Family must always come first. I hope that everything is all right. Best wishes."Bentley wrote: "Thanks Mark"
Welcome back Bentley. Hope that all is well.
Mark wrote: "Thanks Bentley. Family must always come first. I hope that everything is all right. Best wishes."Bentley, Just want to echo Mark and Jim's sentiments. It's good to have you back.
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Bentley wrote: "Thanks Karen - I will try to rev things up here as well. This is a year long study so all of the threads are going to be open all year for discussion on a variety of topics and books related to Ry..."No hurry, I've been enjoying the opportunity to read and re-read the first few chapters, so much to think about.
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https://www.goodreads.com/videos/8990...
Source: Youtube
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Check out on the main page - this video.
Some of Socrates and Plato's ideas to discuss:
a) Socrates said, "Better listen to your conscience, listen to the inner voice that tells you what is truly right, and if you don't know, keep asking questions of yourself and others until you find out."
How would the above be useful to us today?
b) Socrates and the Sophists asked: "Is your first duty to civil law or to your conscience?
c) "If public and private duty clash - what are you supposed to do?"
d) "Which is more important - the individual or the state?"
Great questions. How much of our individual freedom do we concede for the benefits of a smooth running community? Many years ago, I saw a commentator on the issue of gun control compare Vancouver and Seattle. Both cities about the same size, but Seattle (at least at the time) having more gun crime. Some suggested Canada's tighter gun control was the reason. The comment I found fascinating was a bit different. It was along the lines of "It isn't that Canada has gun control. It's that it's the kind of country that would have gun control." I took that as meaning it ain't the law, it's a culture with more of a tradition of conceding to government will -- I've heard it called greater paternalism. Founded (in large part) by the folks who wanted to stay part of the British Empire.
The countries are extremely similar, but having lived in both that seems a noticeable difference. "You're on your own" seems a more prevalent idea in the U.S. And I daresay both countries are at the individualistic end of the spectrum when we look around the world.
So all that to say, the balance seems different in different countries.
As to which it SHOULD be? Well...
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On guns I think Canada has the right philosophy - although I feel safer in NYC than I did walking around Vancouver when I was there last (mainly because drug use was so prevalent right on the streets of Vancouver) and that element was clearly in full view. I don't know. Yet some other cities in the US I do not feel that safe.
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message 124:
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First let us start with what Herodotus thought the world looked like:
Herodotus's View:
http://cartographic-images.net/Cartog...
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Herodotus
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Source: Awesome Stories
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"The region of Greece and the Aegean Sea is fragmented into steep mountains and valleys, as well as many small islands. Over the past centuries this has caused the populations here to form several hundred tiny city-states. The mountainous nature of the landscape has encouraged coastal Greek states to look out to sea.
Many have sent out overseas colonies, so that Greek culture is now spread far and wide across the Mediterranean basin.
In the centuries after 1000 BC, contact with Phoenician traders from Syria led to the introduction of the alphabet, amongst other things.
By this period, most Greek city-states have a republican form of government. Political life in these states is often unstable, but they allow a degree of freedom unknown in other lands. This has given rise to the dramatic intellectual achievements of Greek civilization. Some of these states have become the first democracies in world history; the largest is Athens, soon to be one of the most famous centres of culture in the ancient world."
Source: Time Maps
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This was what the Roman Empire looked like in 500 BC - fairly non existent - but you can see the Carthaginian Empire - the Greeks' empire which was about the size of New York State and the Persian Empire which was about the size of the United States.
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Answer: The Ionian Revolt
"They started because the Persian Empire expanded into Ionia [modern day Turkey] where there were several Greek colonies. The colonists sent back to Greece for help. The Athenians sent a few ships to help the colonists, but the cities were taken any way. To put the mainland Greeks in their place, the Persians sent a small force to punish the Greeks. So begins the battle of Marathon.
The Athenians meet the Persians at Marathon and defeat them even though they were greatly outnumbered. Their victory was due largely to the fact that the Greeks were more heavily armed and armored than the Persians and because they used the battle formation of the phalanx.
In any case, the Persians decided to sail around the mainland and attack Athens itself but were met on the shore by the Athenians who had done a forced march from Marathon to Athens and beaten the ships. The Persians left, highly demoralized by this defeat, but returned years later where they were met at Thermopylae by the Greeks.
So, the long and short of it is that the Persians bit off more than they could chew when they decided to punish the Greeks for aiding colonists in Ionia".
Source: Answers Yahoo.com
Rudimentary Video - Persian Wars - Part I - but gets the basics explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CyXS...
Rudimentary Video - Persian Wars - Part II - but gets the basics explained: https://youtu.be/u09_hvFi4Ts?list=PL-...
This is a film of the Greco - Persian Wars - a documentary - it is fairly well done and explains the revenge that Xerxes wanted to exact on the Greeks specifically the Athenians. The odds would have been in Persia's favor - a vast empire with millions of people coming down hard on let us say the state of Rhode Island. Leonidas, the Spartans, Cyrus the Great, Darius I, and Xerxes are all portrayed. Discusses also the Battle of Marathon. However, be advised that there are scenes about Sparta and Spartan training which are quite graphic and for some would be offensive even thought this is part of the documentary - Warning - Graphic Scenes even though only enacted but I think well done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkEWu...
A great historical fiction book about the Battle of Thermopylae: Gates of Fire
by
Steven PressfieldSynopsis:
Gates of Fire is a 1998 historical fiction novel by Steven Pressfield that recounts the Battle of Thermopylae through Xeones, a helot slave/squire, and one of only three Greek survivors of the battle.
Gates of Fire is on the Commandant of the Marine Corps' Reading list. It is taught at West Point, the United States Naval Academy, and at the Marine Corps Basic School at Quantico. The novel stresses the literary themes of fate and irony as well as the military themes of honor, duty, stoicism, and esprit de corps.
At Thermopylae, the allied Greek nations deployed a small force of four thousand Greek heavy infantry against the invading Persian army of two million strong. Leading the Greeks was a small force of three hundred Spartans, chosen because they were all "sires" — men who had to have sons who could preserve their blood line, should they fall in battle.
Thermopylae was the only gateway into Greece for the Persian army, and presented the perfect choke point — a narrow pass bordered by a huge mountain wall on one side and a cliff drop-off to the sea on the other. This location decreased the advantage of the Persians' numerical superiority. Delaying the Persian advance here would give the Greek allies enough time to ready a larger, main force to defend against the Persians. The battle takes place simultaneously with the sea battle at Artemisium, where the Allied Greek forces hoped to protect the flank of the army at Thermopylae whilst not being cut off themselves. The Greeks were at a disadvantage at Artemisium, as at Thermopylae - the Persians outnumbered the Allies, and most of the Athenian ships were newly built and manned by inexperienced crews - and both sides suffered heavy losses in the sea battle.
The novel is told from either the perspective of the royal scribe to the Persian king Xerxes, as he records the story of Xeones, after the battle, or in the first person from Xeones' point of view. Though Xeones is critically wounded in the battle, the Persian King Xerxes orders his surgeons to make every effort to keep the captive squire alive. Much of the narrative explores Spartan society, particularly the agoge, which is the military training program which all young Spartan boys must complete to become citizens of Sparta. The novel also details the heroics of several dozen Spartans, including the King of Sparta, Leonidas, the Olympic champion Polynikes, a young Spartan warrior named Alexandros, and the Spartan officer Dienekes. Pressfield employs detailed descriptions of the Spartan phalanx in battle, as well as the superior training and discipline of the Spartan warriors.
Xeones begins his tale with the destruction of his city, and chooses to tell specific stories of Spartan training leading up to the battle at the Hot Gates. Most of his stories include Alexandros, since Xeones is assigned to be his sparring partner. Once at the Hot Gates, Xeones tells the story completely chronologically and does not exclude any moments
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Called the "polis"
Some humorous videos on some useful topics in understanding the politics and set up of Athens and Sparta, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2a3...
Source: Youtube
Geography and Greece:
https://youtu.be/5FVpL4ma8nQ?list=PL-...
Democracy in Athens
https://youtu.be/4JWGBMAgjqs?list=PL-...
Athens and Sparta
https://youtu.be/euZh8KLB5eE?list=PL-...
Source for all the above - Youtube
Bentley wrote: "True Jim. The cultural background is different - in fact you are right - Canada wanted to stay part of the British Empire - and the colonists here did not. On guns I think Canada has the right ..."
I think I know the part of Vancouver you mean. Not a pleasant place. And they've had some gang-related gun crime in recent years, alas.
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"The Ionian Revolt, and associated revolts in Aeolis, Doris, Cyprus and Caria, were military rebellions by several Greek regions of Asia Minor against Persian rule, lasting from 499 BC to 493 BC.
At the heart of the rebellion was the dissatisfaction of the Greek cities of Asia Minor with the tyrants appointed by Persia to rule them, along with the individual actions of two Milesian tyrants, Histiaeus and Aristagoras. The cities of Ionia had been conquered by Persia around 540 BC, and thereafter were ruled by native tyrants, nominated by the Persian satrap in Sardis.
In 499 BC, the then tyrant of Miletus, Aristagoras, launched a joint expedition with the Persian satrap Artaphernes to conquer Naxos, in an attempt to bolster his position. The mission was a debacle, and sensing his imminent removal as tyrant, Aristagoras chose to incite the whole of Ionia into rebellion against the Persian king Darius the Great.
In 498 BC, supported by troops from Athens and Eretria, the Ionians marched on, captured, and burnt Sardis. However, on their return journey to Ionia, they were followed by Persian troops, and decisively beaten at the Battle of Ephesus. This campaign was the only offensive action by the Ionians, who subsequently went on the defensive. The Persians responded in 497 BC with a three pronged attack aimed at recapturing the outlying areas of the rebellion, but the spread of the revolt to Caria meant that the largest army, under Daurises, relocated there.
While initially campaigning successfully in Caria, this army was annihilated in an ambush at the Battle of Pedasus. This resulted in a stalemate for the rest of 496 BC and 495 BC.
By 494 BC the Persian army and navy had regrouped, and they made straight for the epicentre of the rebellion at Miletus. The Ionian fleet sought to defend Miletus by sea, but were decisively beaten at the Battle of Lade, after the defection of the Samians. Miletus was then besieged, captured, and its population was brought under Persian rule. This double defeat effectively ended the revolt, and the Carians surrendered to the Persians as a result. The Persians spent 493 BC reducing the cities along the west coast that still held out against them, before finally imposing a peace settlement on Ionia which was generally considered to be both just and fair.
The Ionian Revolt constituted the first major conflict between Greece and the Persian Empire, and as such represents the first phase of the Greco-Persian Wars.
Although Asia Minor had been brought back into the Persian fold, Darius vowed to punish Athens and Eretria for their support of the revolt.
Moreover, seeing that the myriad city states of Greece posed a continued threat to the stability of his Empire, according to Herodotus, Darius decided to conquer the whole of Greece.
In 492 BC, the first Persian invasion of Greece, the next phase of the Greco-Persian Wars, would begin as a direct consequence of the Ionian Revolt".
Where was Ionia?
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Ionia (Ancient Greek: Ἰωνία or Ἰωνίη; Turkish: İyonya) is an ancient region of central coastal Anatolia in present-day Turkey, the region nearest İzmir, which was historically Smyrna. It consisted of the northernmost territories of the Ionian League of Greek settlements. Never a unified state, it was named after the Ionian tribe who, in the Archaic Period (600–480 BC), settled mainly the shores and islands of the Aegean Sea. Ionian states were identified by tradition and by their use of Eastern Greek.
Ionia proper comprised a narrow coastal strip from Phocaea in the north near the mouth of the river Hermus (now the Gediz), to Miletus in the south near the mouth of the river Maeander, and included the islands of Chios and Samos. It was bounded by Aeolia to the north, Lydia to the east and Caria to the south. The cities within the region figured large in the strife between the Persian Empire and the Greeks.
According to Greek tradition, the cities of Ionia were founded by colonists from the other side of the Aegean. Their settlement was connected with the legendary history of the Ionic people in Attica, which asserts that the colonists were led by Neleus and Androclus, sons of Codrus, the last king of Athens. In accordance with this view the "Ionic migration", as it was called by later chronologers, was dated by them one hundred and forty years after the Trojan War, or sixty years after the return of the Heracleidae into the Peloponnese.
Source: Wikipedia
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by Richard A. GabrielSynopsis:
Overview - Three Volumes
For more than 5,000 years, massive empires have met on the battlefield to determine the future course of world history. Ranging from Sumer, the world's first imperial state, to the fall of the Byzantine Empire, this comprehensive three-volume set, which includes both Western and non-Western empires, details the military capabilities of these empires, including the armies, soldiers, technologies, and commanders that powered the imperial juggernaut. From the Near East to Asia, from Western Europe to the New World, these empires spawned every major social institution on which modern society is based, including the first use of total war. With more than 400 illustrations and maps, this set reveals the awesome and destructive power of these early forces, from the dawn of recorded history to the development of gunpowder.
Volume I: From the first clashes of the Sumerian Empire in 4000 B.C.E., to the destruction of the Persian Empire, volume one includes all the major imperial entities from Europe to Asia, including the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Israelites; China, India, Persia, and classical Greece. Students will find the historical context within which the empire emerged, an examination of the imperial army, including structure, weapons, tactics, logistics, and manner of warfare; a detailed analysis of at least one major battle; an analysis of the rival commanders; and a section on the lessons of war. Each volume contains more than 100 illustrations, maps, and figures that demonstrate manner of dress, weaponry, imperial location, and course of the battle. Every chapter contains suggestions for further reading. Volume II: Until its destruction by the Romans in 146B.C.E., Carthage was the primary naval empire of the Mediterranean world. The Norman victory at Hastings in 1066 C.E. was one of the most important events in the Medieval world and resulted in the creation of the modern state of Great Britain.
Volume II: This volume covers vast territory from Imperial Rome to Korea, including chapters on the Huns, the Arabs, the Barbarians, the Vikings, and the Franks. Students will find the historical context within which the empire emerged, an examination of the imperial army, including structure, weapons, tactics, logistics, and manner of warfare; a detailed analysis of at least one major battle; an analysis of the rival commanders; and a section on the lessons of war. Each volume contains more than 100 illustrations, maps, and figures that demonstrate manner of dress, weaponry, imperial location, and course of the battle. Every chapter contains suggestions for further reading.
Volume III: This volume examines the major events of the Middle Ages, from Europe to the major empires of Asia and the Americas, volume three takes readers from the age of the Medieval knight to the fall of Constantinople in 1453 C.E. Western sections detail the Crusades and the Hundred Years War, while non-Western chapters cover the Japanese, the Mongols and the Ottomans in Asia and the American empires of the Aztecs, Incas, and Mayas. Students will find the historical context within which the empire emerged, an examination of the imperial army, including structure, weapons, tactics, logistics, and manner of warfare; a detailed analysis of at least one major battle; an analysis of the rival commanders; and a section on the lessons of war. Each volume contains more than 100 illustrations, maps, and figures that demonstrate manner of dress, weaponry, imperial location, and course of the battle. Every chapter contains suggestions for further reading.
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http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/pe...
Timeline of the Persian Wars 492-449
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/pe...
Events leading up to the Persian Wars
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/wa...
Persian Wars - Battle of Marathon - 490 B.C.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/pe...
Battle at Thermopylae - 480 B.C.
Basics on this Important Persian War Battle
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/we...
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http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspape...
Source: Newspaper SG - Singapore newspaper
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Such Laconic bravery doubtlessly helped to maintain morale. Herodotus writes that when Dienekes, a Spartan soldier, was informed that Persian arrows would be so numerous as "to block out the sun", he retorted, unconcerned; "So much the better...then we shall fight our battle in the shade."
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Empires at War: A Chronological Encyclopedia from Sumer to the Persian Empire, Volume I (other topics)Gates of Fire (other topics)
The Histories (other topics)
The Persian Empire A History /anglais (other topics)
Persian Fire: The First World Empire and the Battle for the West (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Richard A. Gabriel (other topics)Steven Pressfield (other topics)
Herodotus (other topics)
Lindsay H. Allen (other topics)
Tom Holland (other topics)
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