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The Iliad
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If you've got iTunes and some extra time, I think you'll find them quite helpful.
I've also added a link to the Homer post in the Resources folder.
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There is no agreement as to whether Homer, as an individual, actually existed. The Iliad was composed, as an oral tale, somewhere around 700BC, during the Dark Age of Greece.
A few questions to ponder as you read:
- The name "Illiad" derives from Illios, which was the Greek name for Troy. Why does the story take its name from the city rather than the story's main figure, Achilles?
- Achilles is the main character of The Iliad, but some scholars argue he was not the hero of the story. Does the story have a hero, and who do you think it was?
- The gods clearly take sides in the war, some favoring the Trojans, others the Greeks. Whose side do you think Homer was on?
- Horses figure very prominently in the Iliad, from the figure of Achilles, who was raised by a centaur, to the Trojan Horse. And the Troy of the Iliad was renowned for its horses. What do you think horses represent?
- Fame and reputation are extremely important motivators for the main characters in the story -- Achilles, Hector, Agamemnon, Paris. This is the way the mortals in Greek myth gain immortality. This is why the taking away of Briseis is such an insult to Achilles as the story opens; it is an affront to his reputation. Keep this in mind especially as you read the dispute between Agamemnon and Achilles in Book 1.
- The name "Achilles" derives from Greek words for "grief" and "the people, the multiple" and may mean something like "grief of the people". Is this an accurate descriptor of Achilles?
- What are the weapons of choice of the heroes in The Iliad?
- Death, grief and the cycle of life are central themes of The Illiad. Pay attention to the deaths of heroes. In light of your observations re: weapons, what might this tell us about Achilles' death?
C Nathanael wrote: "While most scholars today agree that some sort of Trojan War actually happened, and date it to approximately 1150 BC during the Bronze Age, almost nothing is known of it. The events described in th..."Some background on the Trojans which may only be legendary or could have some historical truth:
http://osterholm.net/swedes.html
The Osterholm writer believes that Swedes were descendants of Thracians who were descended from Japheth, Noah’s son.
“Japheth is considered the father of Indo-European people groups . . . Japheth's 7th son, Tiras, was the progenitor of the Tiracians. Historians note they probably first settled in the area of Asia Minor (present day Turkey) about 1900 BC. The transfer of words through nations and languages is prevalent in every people group. Merenptah of Egypt, who reigned during the 13th century BC, provides us with what is so far our earliest reference to the people of Tiras, recording their name as the Tursha (or Tarusha), and referring to them as invaders from the north. Herodotus (425 BC Greek historian) wrote: "The Thracian people are the most numerous of the world; the Thracians have several names, according to their specific regions, but their habits are more or less the same...and only their chronic disunity prevented them from being the most powerful of all nations." ”
Josephus (1st century AD Jewish & Roman historian) identifies them as the tribes who were known to the Romans as Thirasians, and to the Greeks as Thracians, whom they feared as marauding pirates. Dio Cassius, Roman historian in the 2nd century AD, wrote "let us not forget that a Trajan was a true-born Thracian."
Tiras himself was worshipped by his descendants as Thuras (Thor), the god of war. The river Athyras was also named after him, and the ancient city of Troas (Troi, Troy - the Trajans or Trojans) perpetuates his name, as also does the Taunrus mountain range. Thracian lands stretched from southwestern Europe to Asia Minor, a vast area historically known as Thracia. The historical Thracian genealogical tree counts over 200 tribes which had several names, according to their specific regions. Some of their tribal names were Trajans, Etruscans, Dacians, Luwians, Ramantes, Pelasgians, Besins, Odrisi, Serdoi, Maidoi and Dentheletoi. The Trajans (Trojans) founded the city of Troy which existed approximately 2400 years (about 1900 BC to 500 AD), which was destroyed and rebuilt several times. Thousands of Trojan warriors left the city of Troy during the 11th century BC. They came north and captured land along the banks of the river Don (southwestern Russia), a major trade route. The locals named the Trojan conquerors the "Aes," meaning "Iron People," for their superior weaponry. The tribes of Trojan Aes would eventually move north, settling in present-day Scandinavia. The Aes or Aesar (plural), subsequently became known as the Svear, and then Swedes. Historians refer to the Aes people as "Thraco-Cimmerians" due to their Trojan ancestry. Other tribes of Thracians remained a culture in Asia Minor and southern Europe until the 5th century AD. Many present-day Bulgarians claim to be direct descendants of ancient Thracians (different from the Slavs who arrived that region in the 6th century AD).
Japheth's first born son was Gomer. Gomer is perpetuated through the names of Gamir, Gimmer, Gomeria, Gotarna and Goth. The tribes of Gomer are mentioned by the Jews in the 7th century BC as the tribes that dwelt in the "uppermost parts of the north". The Assyrians in the 7th century referred to them as the Gimirraya. Other names used throughout history include Gimmerai, Crimea, Chomari, Cimmer, Cimmerian. Cimmerians populated areas of the north of the Caucasus & Black Sea in southern Russia. Linguistically they are usually regarded as Thracian, which suggests a close relationship. "Thraco-Cimmerian" remains of the 8th-7th century BC found in the southwestern Ukraine and in central Europe are associated with the Aes people.
The little written evidence of Scandinavian history from 100 BC to about 600 AD comes from contemporary writers of history, like Tacitus and Jordanes. However, the lack of written history prior to 100 BC does not diminish the provocative past of the Scandinavians. . .
“In pursuit of a more accurate evaluation of Scandinavian history, some historical questions will have no easy answers. For example, who were the Svear and Daner people who lived in the Baltic region (Denmark and southern Sweden) in the BC era? Who were the Erul people who lived in the Baltic region at the same time? Were they all kin from tribes of Thracians?” (unattributed quote within article- ed.)
There is strong evidence that Swedish predecessors were migratory Thracians, an aggressive refugee "boat-people" who first came from the ancient city of Troy. . .
Thousands of Trojans left Troy immediately after the [Trojan] war, beginning about 1184 BC. Others remained about 30 to 50 years after the war, when an estimated 30,000 Trojans/Thracians suddenly abandoned the city of Troy, as told by Homer (Greek writer/poet, eighth century BC) and various sources (Etruscan, Merovingian, Roman and later Scandinavian). The stories corroborate the final days of Troy, and describe how, after the Greeks sacked the city, the remaining Trojans eventually emigrated. Over half of them went up the Danube river and crossed over into Italy, establishing the Etruscan culture (the dominating influence on the development of Rome), and later battled the Romans for regional dominance. The remaining Trojans, mainly chieftains and warriors, about 12,000 in all with their clans, went north across the Black Sea into the Mare Moetis or "shallow sea" where the Don River ends (Caucasus region in southern Russia), and established a kingdom called Sicambria about 1150 BC. The Romans would later refer to the inhabitants as Sicambrians. The locals (nomadic Scythians) named these Trojan conquerors the "Iron people," or the Aes in their language. The Aes (also As, Asa, Asas, Asen, Aesar, Aesir, Aesire, Æsir or Asir) soon built their famous fortified city Aesgard or Asgard, described as "Troy in the north." Various other sources collaborate this, stating the Trojans landed on the eastern shores with their superior weaponry, and claimed land. The area became known as Asaland (Land of the Aesir) or Asaheim (Home of the Aesir).
Some historians suggest that Odin, who was later worshipped as a god by pagan Vikings, was actually a Thracian/Aesir leader who reigned in the Sicambrian kingdom and lived in the city of Asgard in the first century BC. He appointed chieftains after the pattern of Troy, establishing rulers to administer the laws of the land, and he drew up a code of law like that in Troy and to which the Trojans had been accustomed. Tradition knows these Aesir warriors as ancient migrants from Troy, formidable fighters who inspired norse mythology and as the ancestors of the Vikings. They were feared for their warships, as well as their ferocity in battle, and thus quickly dominated the northern trades using the Don river as their main route to the north.
Historians refer to the Aesir people as the Thraco-Cimmerians, since the Trojans were of Thracian ancestry. The Cimmerians were an ancient people who lived among Thracians, and were eventually absorbed into Thracian culture. Greek historian Herodotus of Halicarnassus noted about 440 BC that the Thracians were the second most numerous people in the world, outnumbered only by the (East) Indians, and that the Thracian homeland was huge. Ancient maps describe the region as Thrace or Thracia, present-day southeast Europe and northeast Greece. Thracian homelands included the Ukrainian steppes and much of the Caucasus region. According to Flavius Josephus, Jewish & Roman historian in the 1st century AD, the descendants of Noah's grandson Tiras were called Tirasians.
Evidence that the Aesir (Iron people) were Trojan refugees can be confirmed from local and later Roman historical sources, including the fact that the inner part of the Black Sea was renamed from the Mare Maeotis to the "Iron Sea" or "Sea of Aesov", in the local tongue. The name remains today as the Sea of Azov, an inland sea in southern European Russia, connected with the Black Sea.
This is fascinating to me to see that some of my ancestors may actually have been the offspring of the Trojans in a circuitous route.
I guess you know which side I root for in the Iliad.
From Virgil onward, claiming to be descended from the Trojans is traditional.Sir Gawain and the Green Knight opens with Brut leaving Troy to end up, eventually, in Britain.
Mary wrote: "From Virgil onward, claiming to be descended from the Trojans is traditional.Sir Gawain and the Green Knight opens with Brut leaving Troy to end up, eventually, in Britain."
Yes, that is where legendary figures and men are mythically grafted onto a lineage to lend a little prestige.
I'm more interested in the movement of actual peoples (sometimes traced genetically), and what can be gleaned from the ancient sources (and archeology) as to their nature, customs, dress, and weapons.
Homer is an uneven source as to warfare itself as he conflates chariots in use of war with that of hoplite soldiers, as his charioteers don't fight from those platforms usually but ride out to battle and dismount for single combat.
For me, it's also about trying to visualize the opposing forces. Thracians at the time (and later) were well known for their particular dress, hats, shields, weapons, and battle style, as the Greeks were known by theirs.
We get good images from their vases, but not so much of the Trojans (or were they connected to the Hittites and we can imagine them from those people)?
Just wondering.
Mod
"A little prestige" is an understatement :-) There was a time when every European royal house of pretension had to be able to demonstrate proven descent from Troy, not only to establish itself as the equal in prestige of the Roman emperors, but also to establish the moral right to territorial claims. Such aetiological myths were in the great Greek tradition, and poor indeed was the mediaval royal dynasty which lacked one. It wasn't hard to find suck-up artists willing to cobble up ever-more outrageous ancestries for whichever duke or king was narcissistic enough (that is to say, nearly all of them) to fall for them. I myself personally have at least a dozen different lines of descent through European royalty back both to Roman emperors, the kings of Troy, and ultimately Adam and Eve, none of which is worth the paper it's printed on, genealogically speaking (ancestry back to royalty yes; the rest, not a chance). Even one or two Norse gods show up in my family tree.
Mod
Very interesting. Thanks.
It would also be relevant to recount the mythical history of Troy.
Long ago there was a prophecy that the Nereid (or sea nymph) Thetis would give birth to a son who would be greater than Zeus. Seriously peeved, Zeus intervened to forestall the prophecy by arranging to marry Thetis off to a mortal, one Peleus, king of Pithia. (To this union Achilles was born.)
In order to make sure their wedding went off without a hitch (or, rather, in this case, with a hitch), Zeus accidentally on purpose overlooked inviting Eris (being the goddess of discord doesn't get you invited to lots of parties; or, well, at least not respectable ones). In anger, Eris crashed the wedding and threw a golden apple on the banquet table, promising it to whichever wedding guest was deemed the fairest. Paris, prince of Troy and mayor of some French city, was chosen as emcee of the impromptu beauty pageant.
Hera, Athena and Aphrodite all attempted to bribe the judge, with Aphrodite promising Paris the most beautiful woman in the world as his wife. Paris gave the apple to Aphrodite, to the (shall we say) displeasure of fructarians Hera and Athena.
Unfortunately, Paris' prize was Helen, wife of Menelaus, king of Sparta and brother to Agamemnon. Paris boogeyed on over to Sparta, where, in an act of colossal stupidity, Menalaus entirely didn't chase him away. Then, when Menelaus' back was turned, Paris, deep in the plak tow, stole Helen and, she being what the ancient Greeks used to call high maintenance, most of Menelaus's credit cards, and skeedaddled back to Troy.
Menelaus immediately texted all of Helen's former boyfriends, demanding they fulfill their oaths to defend Helen's (meaning, of course, Menelaus') honor, and thus we get the Trojan War.
This, then, is why the gods take the sides they do. On the Trojan side were the stupendously shallow Aphrodite, Ares/Mars (patron of Hector, and because he had a huge crush on Aphrodite; and who wouldn't?), Apollo (whose priest, Chryses, Agamemnon had dishonored), Artemis (out of sororal duty) and Poseidon (who apparently just thinks all Greeks smell bad, Odysseus in particular, whom he subsequently tries to keep from bathing in his ocean).
For the Greeks were the petulant Hera and Athena, Zeus (apparently because he thinks Trojans smell even worse), and Zeus' yes-men Hermes and Hephaestus (the lame god, whom Zeus has tossed off Mt. Olympus).
Well, I started in. My translation is trying I think to go for the idiomatic -- with such things as Apollo's epithets -- to try to convey what it might have been like to the original audience.
Mod
Fleet-footed Achilles
aegis-bearing Zeus
bright-eyed Athena
Far-Darting Apollo
bright Aphrodite
Hector of the glancing helm
white-armed Hera
Remembering that The Iliad is epic poetry composed in hexameter, one of the major purposes of the epithets seems to be simply to fill out the meter, and that several characters seem to come with a stock set of shorter and longer epithets chosen more for their number of syllables than for any literary purpose.
C Nathanael wrote: "Mark wrote: "that is where legendary figures and men are mythically grafted onto a lineage to lend a little prestige.""A little prestige" is an understatement :-) There was a time when every Euro..."
My wife and I each have a line that leads back to the Plantagenets, and once you get there, you get everywhere in European kings and such. My wife's line goes in the later Byzantine Emperors who married some King of Italy's daughter.
There are millions, of course, who can trace their ancestry back to the Plantagenets and Charlemagne.
Mod
A number of years back, an anthropologist at the University of Birmingham(?) created computer models of population dispersal patterns as populations procreate and spread out and intermix.
One of the questions his models answered was, "How far back do I need to go before I find everybody is my ancestor?" The answer for Europeans, if his models were correct, is only about a thousand years. Thus, pick any European alive before 1000AD, and, assuming that individual's line did not die out, everyone alive today is a descendant.
The upshot is, pick any individual living before the tenth century and, if it can be demonstrated there is at least one living descendant today, then everyone with European blood is a descendant.
So we are all, without exception, descendants of the Plantagenets, of Charlemegne, of Carolingian kings and Roman emperors, and of the Kings of Troy. The only difference is some of us are fortunate to have had the records preserved.
Mod
Here's another to hear a bit of The Iliad read in the original Homeric Greek.
Both from OpenCulture.com.
C Nathanael wrote: "All the main characters (with the apparent exception of Agamemnon; I wonder if that's significant?) bear epithets:"Ah, but it doesn't have to be translated 'Far-Darting Apollo." Lots of choices.
Mod
No, indeed. "Far-darting" is from the Leaf, Lang and Meyers translation. Pope generally removes the epithets entirely, but suggests "far-shooting". Butler varies it between "Apollo of the silver bow", "lord of the bow" or "Phoebus Apollo."
I'm reading the Leaf, et al., translation and "far-darting Apollo" is unintentionally hilarious, because each time my eyes see the phrase "far-darting" my brain tends to conflate the words, and the idea of a Greek god flatulating his way through the Trojan War tends to take me out of the story. A single god-sized expulsion might decimate half the enemy's troops.
You mentioned above that you were reading the Butler translation, but in your latest you say Lang, Leaf, and Meyers. Which is it that you are using, and which would you recommend? I have the Britannica Great Books to hand, with Lattimore’s version, and if there is not any serious objection, I shall just use that; but if there is some good reason why I should not, then I will defer to your judgement.By the way, the moment I read that your brain conflated ‘far-darting Apollo’ into two words instead of three, my own brain began singing it to the tune of ‘Waltzing Matilda’. Rum things, brains.
Mod
Why, I'd recommend reading it in the original Homeric Greek, of course!
Barring that, however, I don't have any preference. Librivox's audiobook uses Butler, so when listening to that I follow along with the Butler translation. However, I've got most of the public domain versions on my ereader, and find myself reading whichever one my finger happens to tap on.
The public domain versions are all going to a bit more archaic-sounding. Some, such as Butler or Lang, et al., render the story in prose, others attempt to recreate the poetry. Modern translations are going to read more colloquially, but you have to pay money for them.
A purist might argue for one translation over another, but to my mind, for those like me who just want to read the thing such arguments come off sounding a bit elitist. My recommendation is to choose whichever suits your taste or pocketbook.
...singing it to the tune of ‘Waltzing Matilda’. Rum things, brains.
Hmm ...
Farting Apollo
Farting Apollo
Who'll come a-flatu-ulating with me?
Kinda catchy.
Mod
It's interesting -- even in prose -- to see the differing techniques. We have Hera's motive given twice, both when she sends Athena to restrain Achilles, and when Athena tells him why she is doing it, but how Achilles's insistence is what inspires Agamemnon to target him, you have to read between the lines.Not to mention the detailed account of the sacrifice.
I'm a little behind, since I found out about this group late and Easter is coming, but I'm already intensely curious:Why doesn't Agamemnon lose face for being such a stubborn whiner?
Well, he was the guy in charge. Witness what Odysseus did whenever he found anyone not a king talking about the issues -- beat him.
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On a personal note, I'm spending some time first trying to get up to speed on Greek epics and the historical milieu first before actually jumping into the texts. I've found some helpful lectures online and in the Apple iTunes U store.
I don't think there's any need to standardize on a translation. I've heard good things about the Fagles translation, if you're not averse to dropping some money on it. I'm going to be using the Butler translation myself, because the Librivox audiobook I downloaded uses that, so I can listen while I work.