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What are we reading? 7 November 2022
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You can also commit injustice by doing nothing.Marcus Aurelius
Gpfr wrote: "While I still feel The Guardian is preferable to other UK papers, I do sometimes wonder ...This is another article about Hadley Freeman, in which we learn that Adrian Chiles (whom I had never hea..."
i think the online reach of the G, has been a blessing and a curse. Before 2000 it was a stalwart national if not that widely read
national ,bastion of culture and centre left thinking. a decade later as the net expanded, the paper became a much bigger one with its presence in the USA and western world, via the website.
i sometimes read it now and am amazed at how niche it has become in places, with bizarre op-eds linked to identity politics. Overall its still 80% a great paper/website but it really needs to focus on core rights, namely those of 50% of the population who still face so many problems in modern life, despite 100 years of progress, not trying to appease an aggressive movement that tries to shame and bully feminists of 40-50 years standing...
Oh for heaven’s sake. My Marcus Aurelius comment has appeared without the essential last word which is….nothing. Doing nothing. I am going to contact Goodreads as this is getting on my nerves.Meanwhile, I will spare you from giving a commentary on my book every five minutes but allow me this one for today, please……
When Lewis was a teenager, the British economy was teetering on the brink of collapse. London’s streets filled up with the newly homeless. Leigh Hunt, first publisher of Keats and Shelley, wrote of protests at “bankruptcies, seizures, executions, imprisonments….great arrears of rent.” The government responded with the sympathy which has marked British attitudes to the poor for centuries: they announced a plan to execute the protestors.
It is just a matter of time before Suella reinvents this idea for 2022.
Key word missing AGAIN is protestors. Protestors.
If I say:"A trans woman is a trans woman. A trans woman is not biologically a woman"
this is neither, as some would have it, "philosophical belief", nor is it hate speech, as others would have it. It is stating a fact.
For stating this fact I might, nowadays, loose my livelyhood, my job, my career.
My boss, my publisher, my galerist might do that to me. Not necessarily because they do not agree with my opinions. Because they are either intimidated, or, as HF said, they want to be "on the right side of history".
In Germany in the 30s something very similar happened.
There is however a huge difference: Hitler had real power. As opposed to the baying mob (sorry, but that is my "philosophical belief") of self-styled trans right warriors . A small minority that derives its power mainly from being very present, very vocal and very loud.
What I can be sure of is that I will be called a TERF and receive a barrage of abuse, from speculations about my shrivelled up wotsits to sincere wishes that I should be raped, tortured, killed.
Again: something similar happened in Germany in the late 20s and early 30s.
Only Hitler's thugs, aka the SA, broke into people's homes and delivered their threats in person, by beating people up. Mainly Jews, but also Communists, Socialists, dissenters, non-consentors.
The difference, again: being beaten up cannot be compared to receiving death threats by armchair warriors on social media.
What really spooks me: that the methods are basically the same on both sides. Bullying and gaslighting. And that dictatorship does not seem to need a dictator in person anymore.
Like Hadley I am of the opinion that the vast majority of the bullies and gaslighters are not trans people. If you are part of a small minority that is stigmatised and bullied everywhere and all the time (which they doubtlessly are), you break. You don't become a bully yourself.
Ok, I better stop now. Because Hadley has said most of what I feel and think in the article Bill linked.
https://unherd.com/2022/02/why-i-stop...
I have never been the "good girl", I have always been the rebel. Which is a peace of cake as long as you rebel against "the enemy". And the opposite of easy when you find yourself rebelling against your own "tribe". A heretic, a dissenter. That is like being at sea with all the navigation disabled. It is also a time when you find reassurance through likeminded people who, maybe, have come a longer way:
I have learned that there is something worse than people telling me I’m a bad person, and that is allowing bullies to reframe the world, to dictate what we can all think and to define my reality. They might have triumphed over some institutions, but they haven’t triumphed over me.
Mod
- they announced a plan to execute the protestors
- You can also commit injustice by doing nothing
and as I posted for you before:
- By evening, he would be a wanted man.
A problem with the display on your device? Or ...??
I cannot pretend that I much like Nick Cohen, an Observer/Guardian coulumnist. I haven't even grasped what it's all about. But this article seems to shed some light about the work climate in the GNM (Guardian News and Media group). https://pressgazette.co.uk/nick-cohen...
Tam wrote: "Storm wrote: "I am still thinking about the discussion below on Hadley Freeman, The G, and gender (you could add racism or any other current topic). Writing your thoughts online can be a moment of ..."Will second Storm and third Tam. This insidious creep is becoming dangerous and a little frightening. When I read about the shenanigans at in particular Oxford University - supposedly a bastion of open minded discussion, I would be loath to see any relation or friend of mine go there.
Mod
I think this one by Suzanne Moore is more illuminating:
https://unherd.com/2022/04/how-the-gu...
Gpfr wrote: "Georg wrote: "I cannot pretend that I much like Nick Cohen, an Observer/Guardian coulumnist. ..But this article seems to shed some light about the work climate in the GN..."I think this one by Su..."
Very illuminating. I have never had much time for Owen Jones, but it is very interesting to learn that the Guardian was founded by a plantation, slave owning man. Have the woke suggested cancelling the publication?
Storm wrote: "Reading the blurb about The Romantic, William Boyd’s latest novel, I thought it had many features that I like in a book but it did not work for me. Of course he writes well, but this was a supposed..."Sad to hear this Storm.
I read it compared well to Any Human Heart by some reviewers. I’m a huge Boyd fan and have read everything from him.
I will read this, but will lower expectations accordingly..
I couldn’t access most of the articles mentioned, but I did like the one by Suzanne Moore, and also the comments of Storm and Tam. Mr Jones sounds like the sort of person who lives to batter people into submission. He is exactly the reason why I don’t bother with most forms of social media, or indeed the opinion columns of The G. I say this as someone who decades ago occasionally sat alongside the editors of The G when they were crafting an editorial, and took pride in it.
I don’t have a strong, coherent, comprehensive position as regards individuals who feel they have to transition. I have no problem with them doing so, and am content to respect their new existence. I do not think they are entitled to be treated in all respects as a biological woman – particularly if, say, it is a man who has transitioned and who wishes to participate in women’s sports. Taking drugs to achieve a nominal status as a woman and win at athletic or swimming events does not seem very different from taking drugs to achieve a spurious record for home runs in baseball. It is not, in my opinion, one of those instances where the majority must concede to the wishes of a minority.
A friend of ours here in Vermont has a son aged 15 who wishes to transition to become a woman. He needs her consent. She has said, I love you dearly, and you can do whatever you like, when you are 18. Until then, I do not consent. She was called for a meeting at the hospital where the son is being prepared for the process – drugs, surgery, therapy. She stood by her position, and was subjected to a torrent of pressure and abuse from the son’s doctors and counsellors. She stood firm. Newspaper columnists can fulminate in a void. Here is a real-world example. Would you as a parent give consent for such a drastic procedure for a child whose brain, according to doctors who specialize in that area, is a long way from fully developed? Not me.
I don’t have a strong, coherent, comprehensive position as regards individuals who feel they have to transition. I have no problem with them doing so, and am content to respect their new existence. I do not think they are entitled to be treated in all respects as a biological woman – particularly if, say, it is a man who has transitioned and who wishes to participate in women’s sports. Taking drugs to achieve a nominal status as a woman and win at athletic or swimming events does not seem very different from taking drugs to achieve a spurious record for home runs in baseball. It is not, in my opinion, one of those instances where the majority must concede to the wishes of a minority.
A friend of ours here in Vermont has a son aged 15 who wishes to transition to become a woman. He needs her consent. She has said, I love you dearly, and you can do whatever you like, when you are 18. Until then, I do not consent. She was called for a meeting at the hospital where the son is being prepared for the process – drugs, surgery, therapy. She stood by her position, and was subjected to a torrent of pressure and abuse from the son’s doctors and counsellors. She stood firm. Newspaper columnists can fulminate in a void. Here is a real-world example. Would you as a parent give consent for such a drastic procedure for a child whose brain, according to doctors who specialize in that area, is a long way from fully developed? Not me.
Russell wrote: "I couldn’t access most of the articles mentioned, but I did like the one by Suzanne Moore, and also the comments of Storm and Tam. Mr Jones sounds like the sort of person who lives to batter people..."A great post Russell
Storm wrote: "Reading the blurb about The Romantic, William Boyd’s latest novel, I thought it had many features that I like in a book but it did not work for me. Of course he writes well, but this was a supposed..."I'm tempted to try it just to see how Boyd handles historical characters such as Byron and Shelley but - as we were talking about in the film thread in regard to the Voltaire tv series - that kind of thing can easily end up being more a source of annoyance than pleasure.
But my next William Boyd will probably be The Blue Afternoon, as I continue to make my way through some of the 1990s books I've missed up to now.
giveusaclue wrote: "Russell wrote: "I couldn’t access most of the articles mentioned, but I did like the one by Suzanne Moore, and also the comments of Storm and Tam. Mr Jones sounds like the sort of person who lives ..."i agree, great post, this 7 Nov thread is now the busiest for months, good to see, even if the greater issues we are discussing are just gettting worse and worse
giveusaclue wrote: "Tam wrote: "Storm wrote: "I am still thinking about the discussion below on Hadley Freeman, The G, and gender (you could add racism or any other current topic). Writing your thoughts online can be ..."i despair at how campuses have become almost stalinist in their approoch to certain matters, if nowadays you expect to find healthy debate and discussion at universities , forget it, unless the topic of debate is officially "approved"
people criticise the small army of chinese students in UK who monitor and intimidate anti-chinese comments but we are doing the same thing with free speech too
Interesting posts everyone, (Apologies if that sounds patronising. Not meant to be). I have a friend I worked with I later found out had transitioned from female to male. It explained a lot when I knew. I was really shocked at first just because I didn’t know or naively suspect. But once I got over the initial surprise, it made no difference to how I feel about him. It was clearly a necessary and successful transition. He is married to a woman who has a child. They are happy. I am glad for them all.But that does not change the fact that gender and sex are not the same. And this is what the gaslighting does not acknowledge. I think back with horror to myself as a young child. I hated dolls and playing house and girly things. I shudder at the idea that as a “tomboy”, as an early fighter for the right to do everything the boys were able to do, I might nowadays have been encouraged to see myself as gay, or worse trans, neither of which apply.
Being different is taboo. You have to be different in the right way!
Russell’s story makes it real. My friend’s gay daughter lives with a “man”. In fact, he has not transitioned physically, just lives as a male. So what does that mean if you don’t want to go the whole way? And what does it mean to be a woman or a man? How much of this is simply the modern upheaval of social roles?
Saw a horrific story on Twitter of some guy transitioning with his tits out in the photo shouting about how he was more woman than any of us! And daft folk are beginning to believe this, although quite a few women commented that few actual women would expose themselves as he was doing as they know the violence women face.
You do realise everyone that, if we had been having this discussion on the Guardian, I would have been banned and the rest of you put on pre-moderation!😀
giveusaclue wrote: "You do realise everyone that, if we had been having this discussion on the Guardian, I would have been banned and the rest of you put on pre-moderation!😀"thank goodness we are not lol
Storm wrote: "Saw a horrific story on Twitter of some guy transitioning with his tits out in the photo shouting about how he was more woman than any of us!"The conclusion of Nora Ephron’s review of Conundrum:
”The more I was treated as a woman, the more woman I became,” she [Jan Morris] writes. “I adapted willy-nilly. If I was assumed to be incompetent at reversing cars, or opening bottles, oddly, incompetent I found myself becoming. If a case was thought too heavy for me, inexplicably I found it so myself. … I discovered that even now men prefer women to be less informed, less able, less talkative, and certainly less self-centered than they are themselves; so I generally obliged them. … I did not particularly want to be good at reversing cars, and did not in the least mind being patronized by illiterate garage-men, if it meant they were going to give me some extra trading stamps. … And when the news agent seems to look at me with approval, or the man in the milk-cart smiles, I feel absurdly elated, as though I have been given a good review in the Sunday Times. I know it is nonsense, but I cannot help it.”Your story caused me to think of this. It would be a man, wouldn’t it?
The truth, of course, is that Jan Morris does not know it is nonsense. She thinks that is what it is about. And I wonder about all this, wonder how anyone in this day and age can think that this is what being a woman is about. And as I wonder, I find myself thinking a harsh feminist thought. It would be a man, I think. Well, it would, wouldn’t it?
Oh my, Bill. What a quote! There is so much in that Jan Morris extract I don’t know where to start. I actually find it both dated and yet sadly not, offensive yet understandable. I’m going to have to go ponder. Looking for suggestions as to what a three pipe problem might be if you are a non smoker?I have had non conclusive arguments with friends before about our gender roles. My theory is that, put in overly simplistic terms, societal change has seen male and female roles in flux and many are running around waiting till the music stops so they know where to settle. In a world with few certainties, traditional roles are also on shaky ground and so who are you if your role no longer exists, or at least not in the same way? Biology is still biology and children need to be cared for so what then? Is it that governments have not caught up with new modes of living?
My book group read and disliked The Handmaid’s Tale about ten years ago thinking it far fetched, unbelievable. Wow! Were we wrong! Given the events in the US re abortion, are women’s rights really being set back or is this the dying throes of the Old Guard Traditional Male viewpoint. Jan Morris would suggest it is perpetuated by women themselves. Is this true with younger men and women?
From a male point of view, how does a young man see his role in modern society? How does he feel valued? I am genuinely curious.
Mod
Of course we did not appreciate and were made most indignant by those sorts of reactions at that time but ...
My daughter has a close friend who transitioned a few years ago and though I'm pretty sure she doesn't have the sorts of reactions Morris describes, she does go in for very feminine, pretty, clothes.
In the case of Russell's friend, I definitely would not agree to surgery at the age of 15.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...The Scottish govt provides free resources for women under the Period Dignity Act. Also money to the areas to deploy as they wished. One area, Dundee, decided on Period Dignity Officers and appointed a man. To talk to women about periods. This is nuts. There was to quote the Guardian “an outcry on social media” . My comment here would be that we have so few ways to protest effectively that we should be grateful for social media in this instance. These plans have since been abandoned. Thankfully.
However, it exemplifies how people flail about trying to promote inclusivity, not accepting that to be inclusive cannot mean total equality.
The media must take some of the blame for Brexit. The BBC, for example, has provided, under the pretence of fairness, a platform for wildly extreme right wingers, such as Farage. Frequent appearances with attendant fawning. Has that happened with Johnson, Tory corruption, the PPE scandal etc? No.
These are examples of how a positive idea can quickly become twisted and undermine the idea it is supposed to promote.
Cue for music here ….you may say I’m a dreamer….but none of this would be necessary if we all treated each other, black or white, male or female or anything you fancy, young or old, with respect. That’s all. Just Respect. Take it away, Aretha….
I contacted Goodreads about The Case of the Disappearing Words and they say they are aware of the bug and are working on it. Isn’t it weird though that the missing word always seems to be important to the sense? The last entry, I did actually write male or female but the word male did not appear. Hmmm Disappearing males….?
Storm wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...The Scottish govt provides free resources for women under..."
the BBC on brexit has been poor from day one and they have been complicit in the silent agreement of all media save the Indy and the G, of staying silent on brexit as a problem or a bad decision.
a whole ratbag of opinionated right wing think tankers and semi-journos have been regulars on their political shows for 7-8 years but very little of their equivulents, who would be very left wing. thats my problem with letting these small state, anti-EU goons onto mainstream tv, the other side of the spectrum have had almost zero exposure, shouted down and ridiculed. the biggest error of the BBC is not to clearly define Farage, Rees-Mogg, Hannan and others as far right(not fascist) and nothing close to a modern view on politics
Mod
Isn’t it weird though that the missing word always seems to be importan..."
But Storm, as I've said before, we see the words that are missing for you — weird or what?
Isn't it good that we can all have these discussions here generally speaking without falling out. And without bring called scum. It is also nice to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't join in with all this woke nonsense.The sooner the universities get back to being places where real discussions can take place, without fear of reprisals, the better
It was interesting to learn that Adrian Chiles is married to Kath, it probably explains why some of his articles get printed in the first place.
giveusaclue wrote: "Isn't it good that we can all have these discussions here generally speaking without falling out. And without bring called scum. It is also nice to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't join i..."hear hear! totally agree
AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Isn't it good that we can all have these discussions here generally speaking without falling out. And without bring called scum. It is also nice to know that I'm not the only on..."Thanks AB. I think we are a fair example of this as I know we don't agree on some things but always remain polite. Even when discussing grumpy! 😁
giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Isn't it good that we can all have these discussions here generally speaking without falling out. And without bring called scum. It is also nice to know that I'm no..."100% there is never any need for the kind of flaming and personal attacks that infect most social media. Guardian moderation supports their favourite flamers(with same ideas) and censors others....not sensible
Just got round to reading the link to the Suzanne Moore article linked below. She is right on many points, not the least that it demands courage to go against the prevailing orthodoxy. Secondly, the increasingly - I want to say binary world we live in - but the word binary makes me laugh because the trans argument is all about diversity but the arguments always end up being binary For or Against. It has now become a criminal offence to use the word BUT on Twitter when trying to qualify a response. If you say I am not a racist but….that invokes a whole onslaught of total strangers certain that you are. There are no shades of grey. Nuance is dead.Except it still maintains a flame on Ersatz TLS where we can accept differing views…..or can we?
Is it because we are mainly all at the older end of the age spectrum and therefore have similar views? Or are we simply sensible, tolerant people? It is one of the perverse reasons I appreciate Twitter that I am exposed to wildly different views to my own and so I have to think more deeply, be more honest, be less comfortable in my thinking.
Storm wrote: "Just got round to reading the link to the Suzanne Moore article linked below. She is right on many points, not the least that it demands courage to go against the prevailing orthodoxy. Secondly, th..."Where do you find all these interesting people with diverse ideas on Twitter? It's a serious question, I joined a while back and put up my monthly blogs. I was curious. Anyway I decided to Follow Liz Berry who is a poet I like, so I get stuff from/about her followers but it is mostly people trying to sell there 'wares' one way or another. I haven't come across anyone that wants to debate interesting ideas.
I'm probably missing something I think. I love discussing stuff with people who have very different views to me, as long as they engage with good grace, and respect... I'd love to engage more with much younger people, but maybe they are not so keen on talking to baby-boomers, and, in many ways, and especially after Brexit, I don't blame them at all... Anyway where do these interesting conversations hang out these days?
Tam wrote: ". I'd love to engage more with much younger people, but maybe they are not so keen on talking to baby-boomers, and, in many ways, and especially after Brexit, I don't blame them at all... Anyway where do these interesting conversations hang out these days."As one of those boomers, whose views on Brexit (as some may have guessed) are different from most on here, I am happy to discuss anything with anyone as long as things are kept polite and respectful. Generally speaking I can do this, but I have learned that it isn't possible with one or two of my friends and avoid discussion.
Mind you, my oldest friends and I have been putting the world to rights for the last 50 years, and see how much effect we have had.
giveusaclue wrote: "Tam wrote: ". I'd love to engage more with much younger people, but maybe they are not so keen on talking to baby-boomers, and, in many ways, and especially after Brexit, I don't blame them at all...."Yep I take your point. As far as I can work out, my entire family, apart from him-in-doors and son, voted for Brexit, certainly the N Irish farming branch of the family (with a lot of young people in it!), all voted for Brexit. Only one of them has gone on to say that they regret doing so, so I know how it is to be the odd one out in the family, and yes, we (the family) on the whole just don't mention it.
Then again it does feed my imagination... avoiding all the flailing tusks and trunks of the many 'elephants in the room'. We can still talk about everything else though... and do so...
The people and ideas are not all interesting and diverse on Twitter, Tam. Sadly. But they are often different to me! I think if you are honest with yourself, many ideas/statements on Twitter (or anywhere else) jolt you out of your complacency and make you question your beliefs. Let us take the idea of symbols and virtue signalling. At present, Joe Lycett threatened to shred £10K re David Beckham’s support by going to Qatar. A gay female presenter Alex Scott is being both praised for wearing an LGBT supporting armband in Qatar and attacked for being there in the first place thus “obviously” condoning the fact that gays, women and migrants have no rights. The England team take the knee for BLM .
Back to the binary I was talking about. If you are not for us, you are against us. So do we show our support for one side or another? Do we support injustice by saying nothing? If we do not make a public stand, are we cowardly or tolerant?
Is there a right answer?
I certainly don’t have an answer but I appreciate being forced to examine the question!
Tam wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Tam wrote: ". I'd love to engage more with much younger people, but maybe they are not so keen on talking to baby-boomers, and, in many ways, and especially after Brexit, I don'..."I don't regret my vote, I do regret the behaviour of those in parliament who didn't accept the vote and did everything they could to tie the hands of those negotiating the withdrawal agreement, with negative results for the outcome.
Storm wrote: "The people and ideas are not all interesting and diverse on Twitter, Tam. Sadly. But they are often different to me! I think if you are honest with yourself, many ideas/statements on Twitter (or an..."But wasn't the problem with Qatar and the world cup because of the bribery that took place to get the World cup there in the first place. I believe that President Sarcozy swung the vote for Qatar, in return for a massive military spending spree by Qatar on French military jets. The problem is Fifa, in that they appear to be the ones without any principles, in that they agreed to the bribery. I guess I'm saying that people will get away with whatever they can, or are allowed to, if there is some benefit for them. Hence the rise of the autocratic mafia states, like modern Russia.
I don't know that I would refer to these things as 'binary' though, I think Qatar's rulers, being from a place that is very out of step with the western concept of democracy, thought that hardly anyone would care. Well it worked for the Romans... 'bread and circus's' will keep the ignorant masses happy... but even Rome fell in the end, but it died from a combination of rot from within, and an unlikely chancer from the outside... with a grudge... but both elements had to occur in tandem to me.
So maybe I'm saying that collusion can be just as damaging as polarisation... and really its a bit weird, to me, to get all worked up about an arm band, or a knee ,when what is actually wrong is far more entrenched, 'hidden', and dangerous, than what these furores are seemingly about... So a bit like running a global 'bread and circus' franchise... perhaps?
Sorry Giveusaclue but ……I do not see this as a space for a political debate so I will not say anymore than to reply to you that your post does not represent in any way shape or form what I see as the facts. A large parliamentary majority allowed the Brexit wing of the Tory Party to implement (what was actually an advisory vote ) as they wished to. They were prevented in nothing and are responsible for their own decisions and their consequences. That it has not resulted in the expected fairy tale is not the fault of the Remainers like myself who have watched in horror at the trashing of our economy and our international reputation.
That’s it. I will not say another word but as I feel so passionately about this, I could not let your comment pass.
We both have our opinion. Finished.
Mod
Storm wrote: "Sorry Giveusaclue but ……I do not see this as a space for a political debate so I will not say anymore than to reply to you that your post does not represent in any way shape or form what I see as ..."
Appreciate your right to reply, and lets end when this thread closes.
Perhaps the end of the thread is the best place to mention that in thinking about gender issues that the trans- controversy has generated over the past months has made me wonder whether drag performances don't have a number of uncomfortable similarities to blackface.
Bill wrote: "Perhaps the end of the thread is the best place to mention that in thinking about gender issues that the trans- controversy has generated over the past months has made me wonder whether drag perfor..."That is an interesting one Bill. raises a lot of questions.
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ah, but it's where you do your living!
Mine is the sitting room."
..."
This 'what is that room called' discussion finally got me off my duff to write a card to the new owners of 5 Summer St, Augusta, ME. (You can google it.)
My mother was a great one to have special holiday cards made. As a result, I have a framed pen and ink drawing of the house. I am also in the process of updating my will. Since no one will care about that picture, I put a card in the mail yesterday asking them if they would like it.
By the way, the house has a front room that we hardly ever used. (If you look at current photos, that room's fireplace was not bricked up in my time.) When the local insane asylum was shutting down, she went to the auction and bought the most horrible Victorian? settee - one with a medallion. She subsequently made a needlepoint to insert there. I wonder what happened to that settee.
The things one remembers.