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Daniel Deronda
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DD Book I - The Spoiled Child
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Alexa
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Feb 28, 2015 07:53PM
Our discussion of Daniel Deronda Book I - The Spoiled Child
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So today we begin our reading and discussion of Daniel Deronda. Who's planning on joining in on this book? Who has it yet? Who's already started reading?
I plan to start reading today.I've already downloaded from Project Gutenberg.
I want to join. I read the first half of the book some time ago, so I'll continue reading from there on.
I've just started it. I find it an interesting structure so far. The title of the book is, after all "Daniel Deronda," so one might think we would be seeing a fair amount of him eventually. Yet in the first three chapters we haven't even met him yet. We get one thought of his, see him (almost in passing) twice, and then we're off with another character entirely. Interesting how she sets this up!
I liked this quote from A.S. Byatt, "'Daniel Deronda' is a startling and unexpected novel...it is a cosmic myth, a world history, and a morality play."
Mod
Looking forward to discussing this book, as I actually finished it recently. I was happy to have received the Barnes & Noble Classics edition as a gift. The Endnotes were helpful for some of the obscure references.Enlightening quote from Gwendolyn about Daniel Deronda, "I think he is not like young men in general." (She is asked, "And you don't admire young men in general?") "Not in the least. I always know what they will say. I can't at all guess what this Mr. Deronda would say. What does he say?"
Of course, this is just seeing him from across the room. She doesn't have a clue who he is or what he is like. And from what I've seen of Gwendolen so far (5 chapters worth) is she an insightful judge of human character?
Although this is very close to a comment I was planning on making. In Chapter IV we have:"to become a wife and wear all the domestic fetters of that condition, was on the whole a vexatious necessity. Her observation of matrimony had inclined her to think it rather a dreary state, in which a woman could not do what she liked, had more children than were desirable, was consequently dull, and became irrevocably immersed in humdrum."
This could be described as feminist thinking, and I had assumed that George Eliot was a feminist (but I'll need to go look that up). So is this Eliot putting admirable words into the mouth of a less-than-admirable character (as in even a broken clock is correct twice a day) or are these words supposed to add more to our growing lack of admiration for Gwendolen?
So to tie these two things together, is this irony, having uninformed characters none-the-less come up with truths?
So, I asked Google, "was George Eliot a feminist?" and came up with this. Interesting, although it mostly talks about Middlemarch. Still, I'd say an ambiguous "Yes."http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multime...
But then this site says:"But Eliot never was a feminist, at least not in the way we understand the term today. Always suspicious of sudden social change and political intervention, she kept aloof from the many public campaigns of the 1850s, 60s and 70s to improve women’s lives; she did not, for example, think that women needed the vote. Eliot’s close friend Barbara Leigh Smith Bodichon was instrumental in setting up Girton College at Cambridge in 1869, and in the years before its founding Eliot wrote in a letter that she would ‘rejoice if the idea of a [woman’s] college [could] be carried out’.[1] She donated money and books to Girton - but she also expressed reservations about the consequences of women’s education, and was certainly far less involved in the college’s founding than many other women in her circle. For many people, both then and now, Eliot’s ambivalence is doubly odd given the way that she chose to live her own life. Not only was ‘George Eliot’ one of the highest earning women in Britain, she also scandalously lived with a married man, the science writer G H Lewes, who was unable to obtain a divorce from his wife. - See more at: http://www.bl.uk/romantics-and-victor...
Parts of this are so amusing! I didn't remember Eliot as being this funny. There's a wonderful bit in Chapter IX where she's clearly making fun of the first sentence of Pride and Prejudice:"Some readers of this history will doubtless regard it as incredible that people should construct matrimonial prospects on the mere report that a bachelor of good fortune and possibilities was coming within reach."
Now that I've finished Book I, I have to say that I'm quite intrigued by the artistry of the portrait she has drawn of Gwendolen. (view spoiler)
Alexa wrote: "I've just started it. I find it an interesting structure so far. The title of the book is, after all "Daniel Deronda," so one might think we would be seeing a fair amount of him eventually. Yet ..."THis is quite a build up to an actual meeting between GH and DD!
The author has not told the reader anything about DD. All we know is that GH expressed an interest in meeting him early on, but her desire to do this was not based on any factual information that she had about him.
I wonder if when she finally meets DD, if she will remember him and her desire to meet him when she was at the casino.
Alexa wrote: "Although this is very close to a comment I was planning on making. In Chapter IV we have:"to become a wife and wear all the domestic fetters of that condition, was on the whole a vexatious necess..."So to tie these two things together, is this irony, having uninformed characters none-the-less come up with truths?
I think that although GHs thoughts about marriage and motherhood can be (by me) identified as feminist, these concepts coming from someone as shallow as GH mitigates their power. FOr example, how much could these truths (to me) have resonated with 19th century female readers because of the source (GH) I wonder?
Exactly! Is she saying to her reader, "look how shallow she is, to have such silly thoughts?" Or is she saying, "in spite of being so shallow, look what interesting thoughts she has?"
For those who are reading along on schedule, tomorrow we're due to move on to Book II. Before we do, are there any final thoughts on Book I? I really enjoyed the portrait of Gwendolen's character!
My final thought is that "something" is up with Grandcourt. My alarms are ringing...
Oh DD is one of my favorite books! I read it last year, but I'd love to dip into it again. I did find Gwendolyn a bit tedious at first, but yet I admire her confidence in herself.
I think Eliot was a feminist (but the word feminist is notoriously difficult to pin down). She was, of course, more interested in the inner lives of women than she was an activist, but I think she was just being cautious and trying to work out the consequences.
Mod
From what I've read of her life (from Alexa's article and my copy of the book) I think Eliot was a feminist. She seems like a very cautious one to me. She would have been concerned about how her reputation would influence any movement she endorsed, so for me her caution is understandable.
We do have to be a little careful when applying our ideals today to someone in the past. For us, women voting is a no-brainer. For a woman in the 19th century, there were probably many reasonable sounding arguments against it that she would have had to work through and answer for herself before she could commit. This is the case when it comes to social reform in general, things have always been one way and now we must reevaluate how we have done things. That can be hard and for some people it takes longer than others.
Anastasia wrote: "The language in this book is very rich, I feel like I'm being dipped into a literary creme puff! Mmmm mmmm."Fantastic analogy! Yes!
So what do you think, are we meant to approve of Gwendolen's thoughts or are they meant to confirm our dislike of her?
I really never disliked her as some readers do. I admired her relationship with her mother. She just seemed one of those people for whom everything comes so easily that they don't know any other way of living until they are tested. I actually liked her combination of innocence and confidence, it just seemed natural for her to think and behave the way she did. I don't feel much negativity around her.
I don't exactly dislike her either - but Eliot kind of plays with us, she first presents us with her most unlikeable characteristics, a thoroughly selfish shallow person, and then gradually tricks us into coming to care for her.
Mod
Interesting comparison!
Charlene, my take on Gwendolen and Emma's attitudes on marriage is that they both differ.I thought G saw it as a possible fulfillment of social ambition--social preeminence by marrying a man of wealth and rank, though she has no dowery. But G seems to dominate her mother and sisters at home though via the force of her strong personality.
I saw Emma as feeling "why get married?" She's already the lady of the house and is very much indulged--does as she pleases, already has social rank in society, and she also will have thirty-thousand pounds at her disposal when her father dies.
There's a great sentence in Book IV about Gwendolen's view of marriage - I'll go put it in the Book IV discussion, just to make sure there aren't any spoilers here.
Mod
Gwendolen is more dislikable than Emma (in my opinion) but I too drew a connection between them.
Mod
Now I'm wondering if this is all taking place after she's met him. Does anyone know which one is correct?
Book I opens with Daniel watching Gwendolen gamble. She sees him and asks who he is, but they never meet. Then she is called home, without the two of them ever meeting (although she is convinced he is the one who redeemed her necklace, but without any evidence). Then we flash back to a year earlier, when her family first moved to Offendene. When Book I closes we have not yet covered enough time to get to the gambling episode. Does that answer your question?
Mod
Yes, thank you!
Mod
"Some..."
I found that quote hilarious, especially because I am definitely one of those readers who finds it incredible.
Interestingly, I liked Gwendolen somewhat at the beginning of the book but as it progressed I found myself disliking her quite a lot. I agree with many of her sentiments but how she treats people as well as her narcissism is irksome.
