The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Crime and Punishment
Fyodor Dostoevsky Collection
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Crime and Punishment - Week 1 (Part 1)
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I liked the this first part even though I must admit that I have not warmed up to the characters yet.1. I was also thinking that Raskolnikov suffers of depression, maybe even more than that. However, I am not a psychiatrist to be able to judge that. His feverish episodes, his not knowing what he is doing or where he is going seems to demonstrate even more serious mental illness.
2. I was under the impression that he disliked Alyona Ivanovna as she used the poverty of others to enrich herself (even though I do not believe that she was really rich considering the living conditions she was in). However, it is described how Raskolnikov listens to some students discussing her as a kind of leech who takes advantage of anyone who needs her help, and I think that helped Raskolnikov to act. Of course, this is all in close connection with the general poverty of himself and those around him.
I have just lost the comments for question 3 and 4. :-( So I will post this first and then try to rewrite my thoughts.
3. One of his conclusions after leaving Marmeladov was that they had a Sonya who prostituted herself for her family. He is in a kind of self-pity that he does not have a source of income. He also despises in a way mankind who gets people into such situations. I have been questioning myself in these paragraphs why he is not trying to do something and make something out of it, but he seems to have given up. He is somehow educated, so you would think that something should be possible being able to read and write and so on. But it does not seem worth it for him. His young servant was exactly asking him the question that I would have liked to ask him, but he gives only a vague answer that teaching was not worth it and that his work was thinking. I assume that there were many more people in Russia at that time who were worse off and had worse circumstances.4. She seems kind and naive. In contrast to him, his mother and especially his sister are much more practical and are trying to do something about their situation. Dunya "sells" herself partially in order to help him and her mother. I think he becomes angry with himself that he cannot change their situation. I think Dunya is really strong and I admire her courage to enter a probably unhappy marriage to ensure her family's survival. They are at least trying to find a way out, even if it is not the best, but you cannot live on theory alone. Sometimes you have to be practical.
I think that has made me crazy with Raskolnikov. He condemns his mother's and sister's doings while he lives of them instead of contributing. In those days he was even considered the head of the house/ family. It is his possible illness that makes me a little more compassionate about his (non)doings.
5. She is the picture of Sonya being prostituted and his sister selling herself through marriage to a man who will abuse her. It is maybe even the evil man versus the innocent young girl. I was astonished about this open following of the girl by this fat man. Here I admired Raskolnikov. He was very protective of her despite being half in a kind of feverish delirium.6. It showed the worst side of mankind, the intrinsic brutality, something that we can even see nowadays e.g. in wars or prison situations, but maybe even in "milder" forms by not showing respect to others and very egotistical behaviour. After having read the Musketeer series I might not be so astonished anymore by wearing out horses till they die, but this scene was really hard to bear, especially considering that this horse should have had a real value for the man as its working horse. It is such senseless, brutal behaviour that makes you lose faith in human mankind.
7. Did Raskolnikov think much about crime and criminals? I must admit I did not pay much attention to that. However, I assume that Lizaveta's death, which was more of collateral damage, will haunt him. She was a victim herself, abused by her sister, forced into a certain situation. So in this case he has killed an innocent person, a good one and not one of the evil ones.
Sorry for posting so much. I hope my thoughts are making sense in a way. I had so many thoughts when reading the section, but feel as if I could not collect and organize my thoughts properly when trying to write them down now.
Mod
My initial thoughts while reading part I: First, this book is very different from what I expected.
I had high hopes to be honest. I guess I always envisioned it would be some type of literary masterpiece. It just feels like a soap opera - a dark and sad one.
I started reading it in Bulgarian, since it’s closer to Russian. I read one chapter in English because I was curious if it will feel different. Surprisingly it doesn’t really make much of a difference. I also tried the audio book but I didn’t enjoy it - I zoned out and started daydreaming instead of listening.
I liked chapter 1. It established a character contemplating committing a crime. I was intrigued. I had sympathy for him at first because I thought he has no way out - he’s broke, in debt to his landlady, has no food and no money. But then as soon as he pawns something and gets some cash - his first thought is to go to a bar and get beer. Now I don’t feel sorry for him - his misery seems entirely self inflicted.
I didn’t like chapters 2-5 - The overall theme is everyone is miserable and life is depressing.
All the random characters and the endless monologues seem rather pointless. Maybe there is a point but I don’t see it yet.
The nightmare with the horse getting killed was just bizarre - if this is some type of symbolism I don’t get it.
Hedi wrote: "...his mother and especially his sister are much more practical and are trying to do something about their situation...They are at least trying to find a way out, even if it is not the best, but you cannot live on theory alone. Sometimes you have to be practical....."
Hedi, I completely agree with you. I think what his sister is doing is normal and common (even today). If he doesn't like it he should get a job and provide for his family. At the very least, stop giving money away to strangers. That's probably why he is broke and can't pay his rent. He is completely fiscally irresponsible.
Mod
True... I don't like Raskolnikov but I'm not hating him either. I don't think what he does is justified but it does make we wonder about being in his shoes and how I would feel. I'm a huge believer in personal responsibility but that abject poverty has to have an effect in a general sense. I can not imagine.
1. I agree with you here. Especially after reading the beginning of Part 2.
3. I'm struggling with his self-pity. He stopped tutoring his students because he was "depressed." The mom in me came out and I wanted to shake up to wake him up. If you don't like your circumstances do something to change them, don't isolate yourself and wallow.
4. I like the fact that Dunya is taking steps to help support her family. I'm not sure I'd enter into a marriage not really knowing the person or what he's like. That said women had fewer options at the time this novel was written.
7. Raskolnikov conceives himself as being an extraordinary young man and then formulates a theory whereby the extraordinary men of the world have a right to commit any crime if they have something of worth to offer humanity. (From my research: Ubermensch or Extraordinary Man Theory). This theory really surprises me. "I'm above the law..." How many times has that thought process been used to "superior" man? It's rather frightening.
Mod
I don't know what I was expecting. I only ever head two people discussing it and they focused on the main character's torturing himself with his thoughts. Even still this has been on my TBR list forever but I'm partial to the Russians.
Sorry for joining late. I found the first 40-50 pages a bit of a slog, but now I'm into it.I hesitate to say I sympathize with Rashkolnikov but I didn't find him horribly unsympathetic. I expect beer at the time was really cheap and barely considered alcohol, so in a way it makes sense to stop for refreshment when he finally has a few coins. He does seem to be a man without a plan to a spectacular degree though.
The story of the drunkard and his family was certainly depressing. I expect we haven't seen the last of them.
I am enjoying the writing of Rashkolnikov's precarious mental state.. his lapses of memory and inability to focus on what he is doing...
Mod
No worries. Glad to have you.
The story of the drunkard and his family was certainly depressing. I expect we haven't seen the last of them."
I think you're right. No sure how that will play out but I do expect to see them/him again.
The dream about the horse was one of the most horrible things I have ever read, and then I thought sometimes people are abused in a similar way. Then, when he committed the crime, it was a real page turner. The last part of chapter 2 in part 1, I can't understand well. "But if that's a lie" he suddenly exclaimed involuntarily, "if man is not a scoundrel-in general, that is, the whole human race-then the rest is all prejudice, instilled fear, and there are no barriers, and that's just how it should be! . . ."
What is he saying?
I have just finished Part 1 - catching up this week. It's one of the most emotionally gruelling and yet compelling books I've ever read! And the Pevear Volonhsky version is really accessible I feel (have scanned other translations).
My overall feeling (having no background knowledge of Russian history at this time or the psychology and behaviours beyond that which Gem kindly described) is that the author must be trying to point out social inequalities in Russia. I am sure that everything that happens in the story must be for a good purpose, for e.g. I totally agree with Emily that we won't have seen the last of Marmalade and Sonia (I seem to Anglicise in my head!), and that they may provide an important role in the story.
Ana says that everything is just depressing. Absolutely! It's quite hard to read. I had to have a break after the horse dream and after the murder (which was a totally dark page turner!) to have a cup of tea and look at my garden. I am really intrigued as to how the story will continue now. I expect that the author will continue to use Rusolnikov to make poor decisions that affect others, thereby pointing out more issues that arise as a result of drink, poverty, poor education, etc.,
The Extraordinary Man theory is really interesting. I do remember it vaguely from Uni. It feels like there are many characters (the two students in the bar) which consider awful acts in the persuit of the 'greater good'. Something tells me it'll build in the story.
Can't wait to read more! Thanks Gem for your input - I'd never get this much out of a book if I didn't join a group like this :)
I am a bit late here. Had to finish some other chores. I am fascinated by the portrayal of Raskolnikov. I did not see any signs of „soap opera“ here. The description of utter poverty is very well done. Apparently the idea that a „superior being“ has the right to act with disregard to common law and decency was fairly common in Russia at the time (and not only there, for sure; the Nazis certainly did portray themselves as such „superior beings“). Initially I thought it was a bit slow, but then it became really interesting reading. I am looking forward to the continuation!
How is Raskolnikov going to deal with the fact that he murdered two people, one of them certainly not fitting in his ideas who is supposed to live, and who is not.
I also was very disturbed by the story of the horse and not sure why the author chose to include it (maybe it will become clear later?). Raskolnikov seems to follow a sad pattern - a depressed and confused person isolates himself, thereby becoming more depressed; his reasoning deteriorates, he becomes convinced that he alone is right, and on and on. He is ashamed of his poverty but is unable to take reasonable steps to alleviate it. He is paranoid that his beloved sister will prostitute herself, either by ending up on the streets or by marrying an uncaring man. He feels that he alone has the answer, which is to murder and rob an old woman who he find unpleasant. This is not a happy story, but it is fascinating.
True, although he was already thinking of robbing and murdering the old woman before he heard anything about his sister prostituting herself!
Mod
My please, I feel the same way, one of the reasons I initially joined this group.
I am really enjoying the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation, it is very readable.
1. From the beginning of this novel, Raskolnikov is distancing himself from life and from people. Do you think he might be depressed? What other reasons might be contributing to his mindset?
2. There are so many descriptions of poverty in Part 1 of this novel. Do you think Raskolnikov's abject poverty contributes to his crime? Why? Or why not? Do you think lack of employment, self-imposed isolation, poverty, or any other of Raskolnikov's circumstances in life will allow him (in his own mind) to justify his crime?
3. How do you think Marmeladov's monologue is important to the story? Do you think Raskolnikov takes anything away from this? Do you think it changes his perspective on life or reinforces things he is already feeling and/or believing? Or do you think it gives him a different perspective altogether?
4. What did you think about that letter from Raskolnikov's mother? Did you view the information his mother was relaying the same way he did? How do you think this contributes to his mindset? What did you think of his reaction to the news Dunya is to marry?
5. How does the sight of the drunken and despoiled girl fit in with other recent occurrences in Raskolnikov's life?
6. What is the significance of Raskolnikov's terrible dream?
7. What is Raskolnikov's theory about crime and criminals prior to committing the murder? Do you think this will change significantly after he commits the murders? Do you think the murder of Lizaveta affects Raskolnikov more than the murder of Alyona? If so, why? Or why not?