Arc of the Scythe Series [October 24, 2022]

[Yanique, Thread Master]

This is a Buddy Read for Scythe / Thunderhead / The Toll by Neal Shusterman starting October 24, 2022.

[Julian]

Oh I've been meaning to read this series for the longest time ever now. Gonna try sneaking this in between my wheel of time binge

[Choko]

Spot!

[Lil]

found it

[Mel]

We did a BR of the first book a few years ago and may peek in and follow along for that one.

[Narilka]

I'll be joining late :)

[Anni]

I'm currently reading The Toll, so I might hang around here too :)

[Lil]

how's it going

[Choko]

I am running a tad late. I will definitely start tomorrow! How are you finding it so far?

[Lil]

its pretty good the first part really got me interested

[Choko]

So, an interesting concept from what I gather so far. It is funny that the author chose such a close to us date as the time when we Humans, solved the Death problem. Two thousand forty something. That is like twenty something years from now... I find that part a bit implausible:)))

So people don't die naturally anymore, illnesses have been dealt with, major injuries are quickly remedied, and people can genetically reset themselves down to age 21 , as many times as they want. This of course creates a problem, because despite achieving immortality, they are still as fertile as always, maybe more, since I am sure they have been able to eliminate infertility issues, but there's only so much space... So they created a system of Death Reapers called Scythes, de facto sanctioned assassins, who use statistical formulas to choose when and whom to execute, in order to return some balance to humanity and its environment...

Now enter the two kids who caught the interest of one of those Scythes. I am only up to the Opera, but I am already hooked:)))

[Choko]

Just finished Ch. 7.... I was fascinated with the laws of Scythes. They seem very well thought out at first, but one glaring omission persists - who regulates them???? Who enforces the rules for them? Who ensures that they stay fateful to the doctrine? Do they have mental health testing and support? Given the nature of their jobs, I would think internal regulation would be imperative. Given what we saw with the gang of(view spoiler)[ Scythes who were tasked with the mass murder of all the folks on the plane, and I am sure they would have to simulate other mass disasters, since that seems to be how they approach their reasoning, that group were obviously revelling in the act of murder and getting a kick out of the fear and suffering of their victims... Who gets to regulate them? And if one Scythe can't kill another, what would they have to do? A governing body would have to strip them from their position and kill them after??? I don't know. I guess we read on and find out... (hide spoiler)]

[Lil]

Choko wrote: "So, an interesting concept from what I gather so far. It is funny that the author chose such a close to us date as the time when we Humans, solved the Death problem. Two thousand forty something. T..."



YES IT GOT ME TOO. ITS GETTIING JUICY.

[Lil]

Choko wrote: "Just finished Ch. 7.... I was fascinated with the laws of Scythes. They seem very well thought out at first, but one glaring omission persists - who regulates them???? Who enforces the rules for th..."

YOU ARE ASKING THE SAME QUESTIONS I AM BUT I HAVE MY THEORIES AND WATCH MY THEORIES COME TRUE

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Lillia wrote: "Choko wrote: "Just finished Ch. 7.... I was fascinated with the laws of Scythes. They seem very well thought out at first, but one glaring omission persists - who regulates them???? Who enforces th..."

feel free to share your theories, in spoiler tags < spoiler > and < /spoiler > without the spaces, hide spoilers...

That's half the fun of Buddy Reads...

[Choko]

Yeah, and we are so glad to find a new buddy to read with, Lillia:))) Also, I am happy you got me to finally read this series! I have had it for a while and just never got to it...

I am up to Ch 18 and as you said, a ton of those questionable things are rearing their ugly heads... (view spoiler)[ That dude Goddard and his gang are exactly all the ugliness that comes with this kind of power! Of course we already hated them, then they set things up for the two apprentices to have to kill one another at the end of the apprenticeship. And now, just in Ch. 17, the abuse of their power by taking over the lives of that rich family was absolutely despicable!!!!

Also, I am not buying that F killed himself even a little bit!!!! Not only did he take his responsibility as a Scythe seriously, but as a mentor as well, he wouldn't just leave the kids to fend for themselves! I bet you one of the bad Scythes pushed him in front of that train and counted on the rule no one revives the Scythes! Because no one of the people who made the rules, thought that Scythes would be murder targets... I am kind of pissed right now! And I have no idea why that murderer Goddard wants R as his apprentice... (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

I finished the book... Surprisingly, I really enjoyed it. I read Nicki's review and I totally agree with her - I would also call it a light read, despite it's main theme being death and murder... I didn't see the (view spoiler)[ the return to life of a certain person, as well as V's suicide, but everything else I kind of figured early on. Still, it was well written and I think the author purposely chose to have the reader a bit distanced from the story, because death is a very personal and subjective experience, and this being a young adult novel, a more graphic and personal viewpoint would have been too much for the targeted audience...

The testing reminded me of the lake rescues in Harry Potter, and the scene in the Toners compound was brutal and kind of satisfying at the same time. However, I just can't trust that Goddard is really dead... I would not be surprised if he should show up in the next book... (hide spoiler)]

I am actually looking forward to reading the next book. When would you like to do that?

[Nirkatze]

Still hoping to join but as with everything am running late. :)

[Lil]

Choko wrote: "I finished the book... Surprisingly, I really enjoyed it. I read Nicki's review and I totally agree with her - I would also call it a light read, despite it's main theme being death and murder... I..."

oh my you finished it is a type of book ill eat up in a day if I didn't have to prepare for halloween

[Choko]

Lillia, exactly! But we all have to deal with RL (real life) too, so we totally understand everyone reading whenever they can and as much as they can. I am honestly surprised at how much I enjoyed it though...

Nirkatze, you know we will be here for whenever you are ready:)

[Lil]

so my theories

(view spoiler)[that both will end up winning and being a scythe
That the people getting gleaned by the scythes will revolt and somehow get all the information on what a scythe is and how it gleans people and what not and revolt. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Good theory! It would be hard though, since the Thunderhead, the AI which is in charge globally, is not allowed to interfere with anything related to the Scythes, and the people are absolutely terrified by them... It would be very hard...

I forgot to mention, what do you think of the Tones Cult? I found it very interesting... I wonder if ultimately they would be who (view spoiler)[ bring down the Scythes... You would think that people, in a world where there is no disease, death or poverty, people would learn to be kinder and more accepting of each other... Human nature is not perfect and nothing can fix that, I guess... (hide spoiler)]

[Lil]

Im almost done with the book, but I got my kids right now. when I get situated ill write my thoughts. this book has bought me life.

[Choko]

Lillia, so happy you are enjoying it!!!! And as I said, take your time, we are here to chat:)))

[Lil]

So this story is about a girl by the of Citra and a guy named Rowan going through the process of being a scythe. So I don't want to spoil it because I have a lot to say about it.

(view spoiler)[ In this book we meet characters Citra and Rowan and how Faraday picks them two to become scythes. Mind you if they become scythes their family can be granted immunity from gleaning which is where a scythe chooses people to kill to prevent overpopulation. None of them want to be one but accept the offer. So as time went on he would train them and Faraday teaches them the way and they start to build a connection in caring for each other since during this time they can have little interaction with their family. I think that as soon as scythe Faraday warned them that they should be no connection between the two of them it enticed them to try to connect. I think he said it’s just for them to be able to like each other. I also enjoyed their lessons and the moments where they had to experience how they had to kill and witness people dying. I also thought it was cool that they could choose different ways of being able to kill them; I thought that was unique. Also, the fact that they could just simply pull out the phone and take a picture of the person and get all the information there. They can pick out random people to choose who to kill is amazing to me. I think the fact that everybody is immortal with no disease and famine and can live many years with many kids is something different from a story that I have read before.

So along the way, we find out that Faraday gets killed by throwing himself onto a train and I just want to say as soon as I read that part I did not believe that he died I believed that he was alive. Later in the book, he was alive. So hahaha. I feel like there should be more detail in the parts where they were at the conclave and as far as them disliking the fact that faraday had two apprentices and them aiming for them to compete against each other. Although this book was a little too fast, I feel like I would rather find out how Goddard wanted to apprentice Rowan. I would like a little more detail on the way they handle things as far as his group and dealing with pain. I didn’t like the fact they beat them up but I guess they were trying to initiate him to be more connected to the ancestors in would endure pain. They would massacre groups of people and call it justly and make themselves like gods. I felt cringy at those moments. I felt sorry for Roman but it was a good thing because he knows how to fight well.


I did not expect Citra to win. I thought it was going to be both, but reading many books I knew once they said if one wins one must scythe the other I knew it wasn't going to happen for a fact, but I didn't expect Rowan to escape like lighting out if the conclave.

When he killed Goddard I was so happy

When Vol died I cried

When Goddard took that mans place of business I was pissed

My question is why does it seems like all scythes are homeless?

Why are they exempt from paying?

I love curie

Faraday got some explaining to do.

It seemed like whenever they would try to get out of the competition they would get sucked back in

Rowan didn't have to run out and crack that Citra neck. I would have never talked to him again. (hide spoiler)]

[Lil]

Choko wrote: "I finished the book... Surprisingly, I really enjoyed it. I read Nicki's review and I totally agree with her - I would also call it a light read, despite it's main theme being death and murder... I..."

(view spoiler)[ I am so used to books with more detail than this and I think he did that on purpose to make a second book. I found tones cult and almost everything in this book interesting at this point whatever Goddard hates I like and I just can't wait to learn more about it. (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

some of the developments in books 2-3 come out of left field (unless you were paying alot of attention to the epigraphs and offhand references to things (view spoiler)[like the attempted Moon/Mars mission/disaster? (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Great observations, Lillia!!! I felt a lot of the same emotions while reading it! The lack of details was fine by me, because I know there are two more books where I expect we will get more answers:)))

Iain, I noticed those references to out of Earth failed experimental flights and I am hoping we will get more on those.:)

So, when do you guys want to move on to the next book???

[Lil]

I was gonna start tonight. I already have the series so lol

[Choko]

I will start it tomorrow evening then:) Tonight is a bit crazy, plus Monday Night Football:)))

[Lil]

I’ve just started had something happened but back on it!!!!

[Choko]

I am starting today too....

[Choko]

Up to Ch. 4, book#2... (view spoiler)[ R is a total badass, but he still gave that dude a chance...

I love how Citra gives a month's warning, so the person can say goodbye and get their affairs in order. I can see how some would not appreciate it though... Just as with everything, we as people are convinced that something has to be done a certain way, until we are affected and then we start protesting against it... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Choko wrote: "So, an interesting concept from what I gather so far. It is funny that the author chose such a close to us date as the time when we Humans, solved the Death problem. Two thousand forty something. T..."

Just started today! Joining late, as usual, but even in just Chapter 1 there's so much meat for thought--I find it especially interesting...

(view spoiler)[That Scythes are described as almost Holy, and Society is being Told to treat their job with Reverence--but Scythe Faraday himself seems to almost be flipping a finger at that Reverence as he toys with Citra's family and borrows the knife. I get the distinct sense that he either hates his job or is having too much fun with the power it gives him, or both.

And then, the comment on there being nowhere for Society to go--everything has been accomplished, and the Height has been reached. Such an arrogant claim! Especially with the pre-Chapter 2 text, talking of the Moon & Mars disasters--obviously there is room to learn there! But that immediately sets the mood--this is a Dystopia, but one that thinks itself a Utopia. But then, aren't all Dystopias? (hide spoiler)]

This also has me thinking about the premise--statistically speaking, the closer a society is to comfort, the less children it tends to have. Also, the more educated populations are more likely to have fewer children, or wait much later. I also read an article recently about how women choosing to pursue professional self-improvement (and not having children due to it) tend to be painted as selfish, while professional improvement is practically required of men. Just another interesting angle to look at this book with.

[Nirkatze]

Finished Part 1--through Chapter 5. Oh, and read the list of laws pre-6.

(view spoiler)[I was wondering, with all the reactions to Scythes, if that meant their job was something they never came home from. Like, they are never allowed to go out incognito, or date, or anything like that. And it seems so. More than the job itself, that seems hard. They aren't allowed to have an off switch, or a sanctuary. In a sense, that almost seems like the safety balance. With no social release from the pressure, then eventually they must all choose to invoke rule 7.

Already feeling like Rowan is a better choice than Citra. I wonder if either of them will make it to the end of their Apprenticeship. (hide spoiler)]

[Lil]

Nirkatze wrote: "Finished Part 1--through Chapter 5. Oh, and read the list of laws pre-6.

I was wondering, with all the reactions to Scythes, if that meant their job was something they never came home from. Like, ..."

(view spoiler)[Yes I agree with you. I love Rowan< (hide spoiler)]

[Lil]

I have a question


(view spoiler)[Do y'all think that people can get more than a year of immunity of gleaning. Like kiss the ring more than once? I am just curious it may be against the rules, but if it were to happen you think it may be side affects. wait it might show on their profile though. (hide spoiler)]


spoilers for book two up to part 3
(view spoiler)[ im starting to like Greyson (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

I think they can adjust the time of immunity... The standard is a year, but for the families of the Scythes it is until the Scythe is alive. So the time limit is adjustable...

Book 2, I am really liking Grayson too:)))

[Choko]

Nirkatze, it is true what you are saying about women with regular lifespans, but I wonder if that changes if you almost have unlimited lifespans and no window of fertility...

Also, I am totally with you on the hypocrisy of calling women who concentrate on their carriers selfish and for men it is a point of pride. The same with assertiveness and competence. In men is strong and charismatic, a leader, while society as a whole calls such women shrill bitches... I hate that so much!!!

[Nirkatze]

@Choko--so true about bringing lifespans into it. And I thought the (view spoiler)[grandmother married to a bot was also a funny option--at some point, why not just make your perfect spouse? (hide spoiler)] Though with longer lifespans--I wonder if that also holds for getting set in your ways? The older I get, the less willing I am to compromise, the less interested I am in sharing my life...

re: women v. men--It's also interesting to look at that from the opposite side too--men aren't as encouraged (at least by other men) to be empathic or sensitive, and society tells them to "suck it up and deal with it" instead of give them a shoulder to cry on. A lot of things come back to toxic masculinity and male gaze...

Up through chapter 15. Those problems with regulation are showing forth as a primary conflict now...

(view spoiler)[I find it interesting how well balanced Rowan and Citra are. She has more talent for the clinical side of things, pride in her work etc. Rowan has more compassion--maybe even too much empathy. He brings the spiritual quietude, Citra brings the professional touch. Its a shame they can't work together--@Choko, makes me think of what you were saying about support groups etc. for Scythes...

The Apprentice questioning was interesting. Of course the test wouldn't be on their knowledge, but on how well they walk the grey line of Scythedom.

Goddart... really hoping this author does comeuppance well, and that we get something really satisfying for his end. Bully. *thwbpt*

It is very interesting getting his journal entry though. Very different from Curie's. And on that note, it was cool to meet the Grand Dame of Death, Curie herself, after reading all the entries. I really enjoy the philosophical slant the entries give each chapter. (hide spoiler)]

Also entirely unrelated, but I have found no less than three MAJOR typos in the text by chapter 13. Two lines of dialogue by different people smashed together (should have also been different paragraphs), missing their end and open dialogue tags. A comma in the middle of a word. And a paragraph that should not have been indented at the beginning of a section. I need to get me a digital copy just so I can correct them; these are driving me crazy. Usually I only find one or two a book, and much smaller. These are just embarrassing.

[Nirkatze]

Choko wrote: "Yeah, and we are so glad to find a new buddy to read with, Lillia:))) Also, I am happy you got me to finally read this series! I have had it for a while and just never got to it...

I am up to Ch ..."

Up to Chapter 19--(view spoiler)[Had the same thought about Faraday. His comment on "Perhaps everything will change again" can be read both ways--forcing the change by self-gleaning, or having other plans that he didn't get to implement due to murder. I definitely can't see him self-gleaning before giving other things a chance, especially when he seems so involved in the politics of the Scythes. Maybe as a last resort, nearer to the deadline. Not to mention, as a Scythe, I can't see him valuing the life of one apprentice above his fight for heart of Scythedom.

I wasn't expecting the book to turn into a murder mystery though. Interesting.

Also very interesting to see the very different gleaning styles of Faraday & Curie. I guess we could also compare Goddart too. And if looking at all three of them--then even though Goddart is a capital B Bastard, his style of gleaning is not inauthentic. Much death in our current "Mortal Age" is due to sadistic, narcissistic Bastards. The main trouble with him is that he has influence to potentially poison the Scythedom in his image.

Also worried about the little kid he took on in the earlier chapter. Did he take her on as an apprentice? If so, Rowan is still one of two. Too young though, I think. What's his deal? (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Beginning of Chapter 25--(view spoiler)[several conspiracy-esque things tweaking my spidey-senses... the failure of the space programs seem more like sabotage at this point--by Goddard-style Scythes, or by the Thunderhead itself? Keep the population on the planet, keep the need for Scythes? Keep control of the populace in its AI grip?

Esme. Why is she important? Is she a red herring? Is she somehow genetically or physically different? Her gen code? Her nanites? Is it because she is a child? Is it simply the chance to mold her? Did he turn off her nanites entirely? Disconnect her from Thunderhead? Goddard seems obsessed with shaping the future, how does she fit in? How does Rowan v. Citra fit in? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 26 pre note (view spoiler)[May the Thunderhead help us all... built in means of escape... I'm getting the feeling Hon. Prometheus isn't talking about #7.

There've also been several bits sprinkled around about the Thunderhead holding back information. It knows all, but doesn't share all. Especially about Scythes. What potential countermeasures does it have stored?

Also thinking about one of the books (2? 3?) is named Thunderhead.

Volta hates it but he's here. Does he actually want to join Goddard? Or is he maybe a mole for the Old Guard Scythes? (hide spoiler)]

My brain keeps cycling back to the first Conclave. (view spoiler)[I can't believe they gleaned that weapons designer with the poison kiss. It's so unprofessional. How do they expect to attract further contractors if they test their wares by actually gleaning? They didn't have to glean her. They could have had an ambu-bot pick her up and revive her. Honestly, every vendor should have temporary immunity until a week after the Conclave. Not sure if I'm mad at the author for not including that in the canon, or mad at Goddard's people for doing it in character. (hide spoiler)]

I've had fun keeping track of Scythe names. So far:
(view spoiler)[
Most of these I recognized the name but couldn't remember what they were known for specifically. Then there were several I'd no clue on. Yay internet!

Scythe Archimedes--father of mathematics
Scythe Faraday--Michael Faraday, pioneered electromagnetic research
Scythe Cervantes--Miguel de Cervantes, author of Don Quixote.
Scythe Chomsky--Noam Chomsky, activist, scientist, father of modern linguistics.
Scythe Curie--Marie Curie, pioneered radioactivity research
Scythe Goddard--Robert Goddard, first rocket scientist
Scythe Hideyoshi--should have been Scythe Toyotomi. Hideyoshi is the first name, and all Scythes take the last names of historical people. Toyotomi Hideyoshi (last name first in Japanese) was the second of the three great unifiers of Japan.
Scythe Mandela--Nelson Mandela, civil rights activist
Scythe Meir--could be (still active) astronaut Jessica Meir, first woman to spacewalk
Scythe Prometheus--Greek mythical giver of fire to man
Scythe Rand--Ayn Rand, author
Scythe Volta--Alessandro Volta, inventor of the battery
Scythe Xenocrates (Head Blade)--Platonic scholar who explained the world through mathematic philosophy

Mostly scientists, with a spattering of artists and historical/political figures. Interesting that so far they are all googleable names--in other SF I've read, it seems the pattern is to give one or two historical reals, and one or two post-historical fake history examples. But do Scythes only choose names from the Age of Mortality? (hide spoiler)]

Turquoise (view spoiler)[I've been admiring the covers, and its use of negative space. So book 2 has a turquoise-robed Scythe crossed with a black. Rowan must choose black then. Very non-traditional (it's not against the rules but still) so his Scythedom must be extremely untraditional... somehow they get around the rules... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 28 (view spoiler)[Well, now we know why Esme is important. Hostage. Not some future plan, but a plan of opportunity. Kinda disappointed in Goddard. I was expecting something more visionary. Instead, this is pretty mundane. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 29 (view spoiler)[Interesting twist. Journal entry obviously isn't about Citra. What other "she" could it be? Who are Faraday's old apprentices?

Also suspicious that this happened right after she told Curie. Even if we did hear Goddard talking with Xenocrates about taking care of Citra, this is faster than the "few weeks" he mentioned. So was Curie Faraday's apprentice? But what possible motive?

And if the others were granted immunity with Faraday's ring--is it possible that Faraday isn't dead? Who collected his body? He's friends with a coroner after all. Did he fake his death to try to work against Goddard etc from behind the scenes? Thunderhead would see him--but Thunderhead is silent to Scythes. Curie working with Faraday? But why even bother with a journal entry? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 30 (view spoiler)[Oooh, smart Thunderhead!

And why is she seeing a beachball? Is that like the 'waiting/loading' multicolored spinning circle on a Mac? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 31 (view spoiler)[ooooh! That's matzo ball soup!!! I love matzo ball soup!! It's been ages since I had some...

OK, journal entry explained. It was Curie. But I'm still a little confused here. Citra's framing seems early for Xenocrates, and it seemed like even he thought there was something off about it all. Maybe I was just reading that scene wrong. But if so, you'd think they'd be able to tell that the journal entry was oh, OVER A HUNDRED YEARS OLD.

Also, with the numbers we get here--2042 start of immortality. 50 years later 17 y/o Curie is an apprentice. In a journal entry, Curie is around 160-180, and the oldest human being is around 300. She also makes a crack about "See how many languages you know at 219" which, if that is her exact age, would put this currently at 2244, which also adds up to the math. The comment in Chapter 17 of "no one's been deaf for 200 years" would put that right in the ballpark. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 33 (view spoiler)[Well, Faraday's still alive. But he did just fake his death to free his apprentices--with no overarching plan. Also disappointed in him. Where are the grander schemes? (hide spoiler)]

End of Part 4. Well damn. Cradle fans--(view spoiler)[Did Rowan just manifest the Icon of Justice? And was its shape a Scythe?

Good riddance to bad rubbish. Now, if Goddard is gone, who is next on the corruption chain? Was someone pulling his strings? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 39--Rowan seems more like Lindon from Cradle every new scene. (view spoiler)[The drive. The black outfit. The weight of presence. The crusade for justice. The way he has become an unstoppable force in a bare year.

I like Rowan's plan. But obvi it's not going to come to that. Citra didn't reveal her plans. Rowan revealed his. Thus, Citra will win, so we can see her plan in action. (hide spoiler)]

Done! That was fun. Will probably pick up #2 tomorrow.

[Choko]

Nirkatze, reading your notes was so much fun!! It is great to discover new series, isn't it? I went through most of the same questions, and I also felt a bit let down by (view spoiler)[ Faraday's motivation to fake his death and by the role of Esme. I thought for sure her blood and nanites were somehow special and she was holding the key to the future of humanity. Faraday's fake death just came off as a cap out...

Marie Curie is one of my heroes historically and I like her namesake here. She has lived wild, made some bad choices, but came out of all that as a strong and classy woman! I like her:)

I am very intrigued by the Toners and the Holy Toning Fork. This just has to be significant, despite everyone else belittling it. I guess we will read and find out... (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

I am half way through book #2 and those New Wave Scythes piss me off to no end! I have no idea what Constantine stands for, but I don't trust that dude at all!!! Brahms needs to get his comeuppance as well, or I wouldn't be happy...

I like Grayson a whole lot, mostly because he feels real and could be the guy next door... His character reminds me that yes, we are reading a YA:))) But that is totally cool with me.

"May the Fork be with you!" Hahaha!!!!

[Nirkatze]

I finished book 1 at 3am last night? this morning? so I didn't go up and open y'all's spoiler tags. :) Enjoying that now before I jump into book 2.

@Choko--I like your analysis of the writing. I totally agree about the twists, good writing, distance from the horrors, and I love your comparison with the HP lake challenge.

@Lillia--you liked a lot of the same things I did! I also find your analysis of where you wanted more detail really interesting. And (view spoiler)["Faraday got some explaining to do." (hide spoiler)] LOL I very much agree and am looking forward to this in the next book. Darnit, he better!

re: Tones Cult--(view spoiler)[Definitely something going on here! I was especially intrigued by how the F-sharp/A-flat affected Citra--it was almost chemical. I don't know if I see them as being active in a Scythe revolution or something like that--the impression I get is more peaceful hippie protestors than coolaid drinkers--but I can see their research being important or having a key... then again, each of the more scientifically oriented twist wishes I had both fell flat with disappointment so far, so... (hide spoiler)]

re: Predictions--(view spoiler)[I'm voting for the space angle. Scythes are necessary because death has been eradicated + limited space and resources--with maybe a side of curbing stagnation. Historically speaking, the best way to curb stagnation has been expansion and conflict. Space is infinite--and if the resources were put into heading Out There then there would be no more need for Scythes, with no revolution needed either. Thunderhead seems to be benign (so far) so I think all of the Space sabotage we've been seeing is Scythe New Order folks... (hide spoiler)]

@Lillia, re question--I don't know if y'all had this answered already in book two, but I think yes? (view spoiler)[If everyone could only get 1 year of immunity, then Scythe's families would not have lifelong immunity, yes? And also thinking of the house Goddard invaded--if he had stayed for more than a year, he would have had to keep renewing his pool boy's immunity, etc. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Thunderhead book 2, chapter 1

Initial thoughts--Rowan is definitely resonating with the Icon of Justice! I want a Cradle crossover.

(view spoiler)[Since Rowan is no longer officially a Scythe, does that mean the Thunderhead can talk to him, like it did with Citra when she was deadish?

Can Thunderhead talk to Scythes (like Citra) again, when they are deadish, or does her official Scythehood make that impossible?

Even if Rowan could actually coordinate with the Thunderhead, the Thunderhead probably wouldn't be able to give Rowan information he needs to actually make sure Brahms doesn't fall back on bad habits. Though the research skills Rowan learned from Faraday must help--and Faraday himself I'm sure, is currently acting as prime researcher and mentor again, so there's some of the burden lifted. I'm just thinking that if Rowan gives too many warnings, he is somewhat limited in his ability to actually act as Parole officer, being a just one person. Looking forward to seeing how he casts his net, and who his allies are.

Ideally, he'd build up enough of a reputation to counter Scythes the same way they do to counter gleaning resistance--the "don't run or I'll glean your family" or the "imitating a Scythe gets you gleaned on the spot" threats are great deterrents. Can Rowan turn into a deterrent by himself? What happens when some Scythe decides to glean his family as a counter deterrent? Or an interpretation of Rowan resisting gleaning? Would that qualify as violating #2? I can see the Conclave ruling that if Rowan doesn't present himself to Anastasia at the end of his year of immunity, he is resisting gleaning, but then, that ruling was also made by a Xenocrates under threat, and he may very well be on Rowan's side now...

Like I said, very interested in seeing how this pans out. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Book 2, Ch. 1.... I honestly would have been OK if (view spoiler)[ with Rowan killing Brahms on the spot. He obviously enjoys the killing and his perks from it way too much! As we always say, usually when the main characters give mercy and second chances to the bad guys, they end up bringing a whole lot of bad stuff and mischief after them... It's just not worth the destruction that usually follows... (hide spoiler)]

[Lil]

Nirkatze wrote: "@Choko--so true about bringing lifespans into it. And I thought the [spoilers removed] Though with longer lifespans--I wonder if that also holds for getting set in your ways? The older I get, the l..."

Listen you are talking about all the things I missed you are so so so on point I love this

[Choko]

Lillia, this is why the best way to read is with buddies:))) The different emotions people experience, the small details that you might have missed, but the other person has noticed, all of those things make the reading adventure so much richer!!! I love it too:)