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Tess of the D’Urbervilles
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Tess of the d'Urbervilles > Tess of the D'Urbervilles - Phase the Fourth: Chapter 25 - 34

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message 101: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Tess has now determined to tell Angel everything. Setting a wedding date would be like submitting to fate for Tess, so she avoids it. Tess’s experience of fate is harsh and pessimistic; she does not expect any happiness to last in her life. At the same time she cannot help but enjoy her present happiness, taking a temporary reprieve from revealing her history. But finally, Tess gives in to the inevitable future and accepts that this time of easy happiness cannot last. She must face both the past and the future at some point.

However, despite the many bad things that have happened to her, Tess still has some of her mother’s ability to accept harsh realities and move on. She show perception in reminding her own mother of the disparities of class between her and Angel, and how judgmental his community is. But will her mother change her advice? And would Tess agree to it? It’s hard to see how the route this story will take, and even to predict whether Tess will keep her own counsel as her mother advised, or tell all.

Your thoughts?


message 102: by Peter (last edited Oct 06, 2022 10:53AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Peter | 140 comments Jean

You use the word “judgemental.” I never realized how many ways one can judge each other, and, more specifically, how harshly Tess judges herself before this current reading of ‘Tess.’

Tess wants so much to be a good daughter, she strives so hard to avoid the temptations and manipulations of Alec, she desires so much to find a secure love with Angel. Sadly, each step of her path is strewn with self-doubt, fear, and judgements upon herself. Fate follows her, shades any temporary light of joy she encounters.

As we progress through the novel her judgements upon herself are becoming more onerous, more serious. How can anyone bear such a weight forever?


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Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
That's very true Peter :( Nice point.


message 104: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 61 comments The hiatus that Angel and Tess have been experiencing is coming to an end. After so many delays and excuses, once Tess has finally agreed to a wedding date, everything seems to speed up. Tess is startled when reminded that the banns have not been called; she frets about a suitable dress; she and Angel attempt to work out how best to arrange for his parents to meet Tess.

The ground upon which they have been standing for so long seems to be shifting. The dairy will soon be less in need of Tess; Angel is scheduled to spend some time at a flour mill and he’s planning to look for a suitable farm he may be able to acquire. The entire mood of the novel is shifting. We sense a turning point.

And there’s fate popping up again: the mill and lodgings where Angel plans to reside was once owned by the D’Urberville family.


message 105: by Pamela (last edited Oct 06, 2022 04:46PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Pamela Mclaren | 275 comments There is not much for me to say about this chapter because it continues the tension and the sense that something bad is going to happen. I really, really wish Tess would talk to Angel but she is so in love that she simply doesn't want to do anything to disappoint Angel. And her mother's communications have not helped her at all.


message 106: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 07, 2022 06:41AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Chapter 33: Summary

Angel wants to spend a last romantic day with Tess before their wedding. On Christmas Eve they go out shopping as a couple, and Angel returns to the “world of his own class” which he had been avoiding for so long.

They return to their inn and as two men are leaving the parlour one recognises Tess, and begins to make an insulting remark about her past. Angel hears and strikes him in the face. The man apologises and pretends it was a mistake. Angel gives him some money for his trouble.

As they ride away Tess asks again about postponing the wedding, as she is upset by the incident. She comforts herself with the thought of moving very far away.

That night Angel dreams he is fighting the insulting man and lashes out in his sleep. This is the last straw for Tess, and she decides to confess everything in a letter. She writes it all down and slips it under Angel’s door. The next morning Tess is distraught but Angel acts normally. She wonders if he got the note, but feels comforted that he will forgive her either way.

On their wedding day they sleep late, and then find that Dairyman Crick has cleaned and decorated the kitchen in their honour. No guests from either family arrive, as Tess has invited no one, and Angel’s family is displeased with his hasty decision. Thomas Hardy tells us that Angel would be more upset if he did not know the secret of Tess’s ancestry, which he exaggeratedly assumes will win his family’s hearts.

Tess is still unsure if Angel ever read her note, so she checks his room and finds it hidden under the carpet, still sealed. She destroys it. She knows there is still time to confess, but the house is busy with wedding preparations and they only have a minute alone.

Tess tries to bring up the subject lightly, but Angel dismisses it and says he will confess his sins as well, later when they are settled and need entertainment. The remaining hours are a whirlwind, and her excitement temporarily drowns out any apprehension.

They go to the church in an ancient carriage driven by an ancient man. It is just the couple and the Cricks. Angel wishes his brothers had come, but thinks they would have been out of place among the dairy workers. Tess experiences the ride in a bright haze, and feels like one of the divinities Angel used to compare her to.

The ceremony passes in a blur, and at one point Tess reaches out to assure herself of Angel’s reality. He does not yet appreciate the depth and purity of her love for him. They come out of the church and when the bells die away Tess again returns from her sublime mental state.

Angel remarks on her expression, and Tess says she feels she has seen the old carriage before. Angel mentions the legend of the d’Urberville coach, but doesn’t want to tell ger the story then, as it is too morbid, involving a d’Urberville committing a crime in the family coach.

By the time they reach home Tess is depressed, and wonders if she is rightfully Alec’s wife instead of Angel’s. When she is alone she prays to both God and her husband, and laments that Angel does not love her as she really is, but as the person she might once have been.

They leave for the old farmhouse near Wellbridge Mill, and Tess asks Angel to kiss Marian, Retty, and Izz just once, as they look so very sad.



"Clare, Tess, and the maids on Crick's porch" - D. A. Wehrschmidt - "The Graphic" 18th July 1891

Angel does not mind doing this, but as they leave Tess looks back and sees that his kiss has affected each of them deeply.

Angel bids farewell to the Cricks, but at that moment a cock crows. They hear someone mutter about a bad omen, and the bird crows twice again. Tess wants to hurry away, and the dairyman and his wife reassure themselves that it only means a change of weather and “not what you think”.


message 107: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 07, 2022 04:52AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Are you tempted to rush ahead and see what happens? I think all of us feel like that in a way - but there is so much worth discussing in every single chapter, isn’t there? Yesterday I mainly concentrated on two details in the writing: the significance of the babbling brook, and the blatant foreshadowing in a short passage about Angel Clare. Otherwise I wrote an illustrated post about the village of Wool, (which I hope you enjoyed!) and left it open for lots more observations. I love to read parts where someone has picked out a significant phrase for us all to look at.

Today then, I’ll just mention a few topics you might like to pick up. There are masses more, so do add what you like :)


message 108: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 07, 2022 04:50AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
1. The poignancy of the inadvertently hidden letter. Look at the build-up, the language, the hints, the psychology …

2. The feeling of unreality, and play-acting being a married couple among Angel’s judgemental society.

3. The social and personal differences between the Crick’s preparation for the couple’s wedding day, and the reactions of Angel’s family, and Tess’s parents.

4. The reason why the man who insulted Tess decided to retract it.

5. Angel’s hitting out, the revelation that he “always” does this, and pays someone off when he feels he behaved badly. We see that Angel physically strikes out—just as he has always stopped Tess from admitting anything to him. This makes me ponder!

6. Angel's dream - and how the fact that he says this often happens might be significant, and what it might tell us about his history..

7. The reason why Tess still has not told Angel, and whether she intends to. The hint Angel gives that he might have something to tell her. The pretence by each that it is a joke.

8. The true reason for the license, and such a small ceremony.

9. The illustration: the artist, their style, their choice of subject, which others in this novel they have illustrated, if any.

10. Overt references outside the text - at least one Shakespearian, plus one which is both Biblical and folk myth (separately). Maybe someone would like to say more about the derivations, and then speculate on the significances.


message 109: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 07, 2022 04:53AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
The above are things which struck me most about this chapter, and I would love to hear your thoughts on each. In the meantime I will find out and tell more about the (genuine) d’Urberville legend, and write it at the top of the next thread.

We only ask questions here if they seem to arise naturally out of the discussion, but if it’s ever tempting to view a chapter in Thomas Hardy as just moving the plot on, please have another look!

Over to you ... I'm looking forward to it :)


Michaela | 42 comments There are partly superstitious, partly religious forebodings. The crowing of the cock reminds me of St. Peter´s denial of Jesus, so this might relate to Tess´ betrayal of Angel. She tries to tell him all, but he is either naive or doesn´t want to see what´s in front of his eyes.


message 111: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Michaela wrote: "There are partly superstitious, partly religious forebodings. The crowing of the cock reminds me of St. Peter´s denial of Jesus, so this might relate to Tess´ betrayal of Angel. She tries to tell h..."

Yes definitely - thanks Michaela! Tess is "betraying" Angel with her silence. And birds have been associated with Tess's fate quite a few times already: free spirits, messengers of doom etc.

There is probably also an additional meaning - a folk myth - which the country people are alluding to.


message 112: by Keith (new) - rated it 5 stars

Keith Herrell | 34 comments Interesting coincidence, at least to me: I read Chapter 33 last week and was struck by the quote from Friar Laurence in "Romeo and Juliet": These violent delights have violent ends." Later that day, I attended my weekly adult education Shakespeare class, where we are assigned parts and read from the Bard's works. The play we've been reading is "Romeo and Juliet," my part for the day was Friar Laurence, and -- you guessed it -- I read that very line.


message 113: by Peter (new) - rated it 5 stars

Peter | 140 comments Julian Barnes wrote that “the past is something we can neither hold on to nor move entirely beyond.” Tess has two burdens to bare. One is her past; the other is her Fate.

Tess’s hesitation to marry Angel is because of her past relationship with Alec d’Uberville. In a final attempt to tell Angel the truth of her past, she writes him a letter, seals it and delivers it to his room. Fate intervenes at this moment and the letter is pushed underneath a rug. Symbolically, we see how her past that is recounted by Tess is being buried. Her attempt at telling the truth is thwarted.

Tess and Angel travel in an ancient coach that reflects the legend of the ancient d’Ubervilles. Angel knows this legend but does not reveal it to Tess. Thus, he is keeping a part of the ancient history of the d’Ubervilles from Tess just as the unread letter from Tess to Angel is now hidden because Tess destroyed it. Secrets from the past are still buried. Tess cannot move beyond her fate.

And then at the end of the chapter a cock crows three times. As Michaela has noted above (message 110). Tess is entangled by her past. Her predicament has been noted by Hardy by reference to myth, the Bible, and the narrative.


message 114: by Peter (new) - rated it 5 stars

Peter | 140 comments Keith wrote: "Interesting coincidence, at least to me: I read Chapter 33 last week and was struck by the quote from Friar Laurence in "Romeo and Juliet": These violent delights have violent ends." Later that day..."

Keith

That must have been a bit eerie. I wonder if Hardy has been, or will, reflect more from Shakespeare on our star-crossed lovers in Tess of the d’Ubervilles?


message 115: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 08, 2022 03:08AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Keith - I love this synchronicity! Thanks for sharing it (that was the very reference I had in mind, but I had no idea we have our very own Friar Lawrence in our midst :)

Peter - I especially like your thought that "Symbolically, we see how her past that is recounted by Tess is being buried" And how often do we see, in Victorian or Edwardian novels that it is a letter which is the vehicle for some crucial plot point?


message 116: by Peter (new) - rated it 5 stars

Peter | 140 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Keith - I love this synchronicity! Thanks for sharing it (that was the very reference I had in mind, but I had no idea we have our very own Friar Laurence in our midst :)

Peter - I especially lik..."


While Tess did not mail her letter an excellent book is Posting It: The Victorian Revolution in Letter Writing by Catherine Golden. It is a history of the British postal service.


message 117: by Keith (new) - rated it 5 stars

Keith Herrell | 34 comments Peter wrote: "Keith wrote: "Interesting coincidence, at least to me: I read Chapter 33 last week and was struck by the quote from Friar Laurence in "Romeo and Juliet": These violent delights have violent ends." ..."

Good question! Maybe my memory is faulty -- and others might jump in with multiple examples -- but I don't remember Hardy alluding to Shakespeare all that much. He *is* the king of obscure biblical references, at least in my mind!


message 118: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 07, 2022 09:57AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Does it have to be William Shakespeare Keith? I think he does refer to other authors quite a lot. Even if we only stick to the field of literature, so far we've had Romeo and Juliet today, and Measure for Measure in chapter 9 by William Shakespeare, plus William Wordsworth - and references to Lord Byron and Percy Bysshe Shelley a couple of days ago ...

Perhaps Thomas Hardy does refer to the Bible most of all, but aren't there plenty of references to literature, and some to historians, economists, and political figures too?

You'll have to let us know when there's another "obscure biblical reference" :)


message 119: by Keith (new) - rated it 5 stars

Keith Herrell | 34 comments Well ... in the first few chapters alone we get references to 2 Samuel, Ecclesiastes and 1 Kings -- none of which I, raised as a Southern Baptist with frequent Bible study, was familiar with. Also one Macbeth reference. (I am indebted to the footnotes for all this or it would wash over me.)


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Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Wow - so 3 William Shakespeare plays referred to in the first half alone?!


message 121: by Pamela (new) - rated it 5 stars

Pamela Mclaren | 275 comments Jean, you have encapsulated all of the things that hit me in reading this chapter. I'm amazed that it took Tess this long to actually search for that letter (of course, I also wanted to berate her for not just telling him).

Then too, she has misled Angel by saying her reticence about the wedding was because of the link of her last name, Durbeyfield, to the d'Urbervilles. There is going to happen when they get to that ancestral home and/or the eventual meeting with Angel's family — perhaps that will be the showdown with Alec ... There's no getting away from her past.


message 122: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Pamela - good point about the delay. Could Tess really not tell if Angel had read her letter or not? Isn't this just another instance of her deceiving herself?

Yes, Tess really is building up problems, effectively lying by silence - and now by deliberate evasion. It's such a shame she has no older person to confide in, but has always been the adult in her family.

If she had been a boy she could run away to sea ... but then a boy who was taken advantage of would have different problems!


message 123: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 61 comments The power of fate in this entire narrative is so overwhelming that no one reading this chapter would expect Tess's letter to actually arrive in Angel's hand; something must prevent it from accomplishing its intended mission. The reference to Friar Lawrence leaves no doubt in our minds: we know that it has somehow gone astray.
And everything that Tess does somehow ends at cross purposes: her suggestion that Angel give each of the milkmaids a parting kiss has the opposite effect that she had intended. Even the appearance of the coach is disturbing and Angel belatedly realizes that it calls to mind an ill-fated coach once owned by (who else?) the D'Urbervilles! Everything that touches upon Tess on her wedding day is off kilter; the cock's crowing puts a final damper on any joy that might have developed.
What a discouraging wedding day!


message 124: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 08, 2022 04:20AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Jim - Thank you for nailing the exact parallel of the letter as having gone astray. Letters (we are about to have another very different one today!) certainly seem to have a special significance in this novel, and I'll be interested to check out the book Peter recommended. Earlier significant letters might be:

1. The letter to Mrs. Durbeyfield, which offered Tess her dairymaid position, thereby setting this course of the story in motion.

2. Mrs. Durbeyfield's letter to Tess, which stayed her hand in speaking out.

Maybe more? And now ...


message 125: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 08, 2022 04:25AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Chapter 34: Summary

The couple arrive at the partially demolished manor house of the d’Urberville family, which is now functioning as a farmhouse, and see that they have the place to themselves. The dilapidated, mouldy old house depresses Tess, and she shrinks away from two “horrid” portraits of old, cruel-looking d’Urberville women on the walls. We are told despite her “fine features” Tess vaguely resembles them.

The sun is low, and they share their first tea together as husband and wife. Angel wonders if he can appreciate the power Tess has now placed in his hands; that her future depends on his. He vows to himself to never neglect her.

They wait for their luggage but it gets dark and then starts to rain. Angel notices Tess is not her usual self, and regrets bringing her to this old house. He assumes that she must be worrying about their luggage. There is a knock, but it is not their luggage, and instead a package for Tess from the Clares.

Tess asks Angel to break the seal, as it looks so serious, and inside is an unsigned note for Angel from his parents. It explains that these are the jewels his godmother had left him for his future wife. They spread them out and Tess cannot believe they are hers now. Tess puts them on, and Angel show her how to display them on her décolletage, so she appears like a grand lady in a ballroom. Although Angel comments on how beautiful she is, he decides that he prefers her simple farm-clothes.

Tess leaves the jewels on, hoping they will help her cause later, and they start to eat supper. Finally the door opens and Jonathan Kail, a worker from Talbothays, at last brings in their luggage. He looks downcast, and reminds them of the cock’s crow. Jonathan tells them that he is late because Retty Priddle had tried to drown herself in the river, and also Marian, who never drinks to excess, had been discovered dead drunk by the reed beds. Of the three dairymaids, only Izz remained in the house, although very low in spirits. Jonathan leaves the luggage and goes out. This news is surely worse than any of the other bad omens, and it casts even more gloom over the couple’s first night.

Angel expects Tess to be happy about their luggage, but she is upset what happened to her friends. She feels less worthy than they are, and yet they had to suffer unrequited love and she did not. Tess decides she tell the truth at last and make amends. She stares into the fire for a long time.

Angel interrupts her reverie and reminds Tess that he had something to confess. Tess is surprised and relieved. Angel says he did not mention it before because he was afraid of losing her affection. He is not a religious man anymore, but still believes in good morals. He confesses that in London he spent two days with an older woman, before realising his sin and fleeing. He asks Tess to forgive him, and she squeezes his hand to affirm that she does.

Tess is relieved and now ready to tell her story, although Angel still can’t believe it could be anything bad. Tess feels her sin is the same as his, so Angel will surely forgive her as she forgave him. They hold hands and press their heads together, her diamonds gleaming ominously, and Tess tells the whole story of her and Alec d’Urberville.


message 126: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 08, 2022 04:31AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Oh Angel! Oh Tess! Oh Mr. Hardy, leaving us in suspense at this point!

The original readers of “The Graphic” would have to wait a whole week before knowing what Angel’s reaction to Tess’s story will be. But we just have to wait a couple of days.

There’s so much here … and the implied heartaches of more than one, but I’ll just note a few brief quotations which stood out to me:

1. Tess - “While they who have cause to be, hide it, and pretend they are not.”

Will Angel, seemingly impervious to the dairymaids’ tragic and intense reaction to their earlier infatuations understand who this refers to? Do we?

2. The unsigned letter (probably Rev. Clare) - “I feel it to be a somewhat incongruous act in the circumstances … I am bound to hand over the articles to the woman to whom the use of them for her lifetime will now rightly belong”

Formal? Or more. Three letters have now featured …


message 127: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 08, 2022 04:32AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
3. “the beauty of the midnight crush would often cut but a sorry figure if placed inside the field-woman’s wrapper upon a monotonous acreage of turnips on a dull day”

Lots to unpack here in part of a sentence! It is Thomas Hardy’s general observation, but what specifics can we find? Angel’s starry-eyed 48 hour fling? And there is an echo of someone calling Tess “Beauty”?

4. “The sun was so low on that short last afternoon of the year that it shone in through a small opening and formed a golden staff which stretched across to her skirt, where it made a spot like a paint-mark set upon her.”

5. And the last paragraph is superb!

I’ve left it to others to explore these, and merely mention them here as possible openings to discuss - but you may well have more! Please enjoy catching up, going over the comments, or perhaps picking up more of yesterday’s 10 topics (I think we looked at two) to discuss. We begin our new thread on MONDAY.


message 128: by [deleted user] (new)

Michaela wrote: "There are partly superstitious, partly religious forebodings. The crowing of the cock reminds me of St. Peter´s denial of Jesus, so this might relate to Tess´ betrayal of Angel. She tries to tell h..."

I thought more about Tess denying and that way betraying her true self, to fit in/not be cast out by Angel and society. Just as Peter denied and betrayed his true self as a follower of Jesus to not be cast out by society as well.


message 129: by Peter (new) - rated it 5 stars

Peter | 140 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Jim - Thank you for nailing the exact parallel of the letter as having gone astray. Letters (we are about to have another very different one today!) certainly seem to have a special significance in..."

Yes, letters are one way authors were able to bridge gaps in their narrative, develop character and serve as harbingers of things yet to come or to reflect back on the past.

Victorian writers loved to incorporate letters into their novels. That said, they didn’t yet have emails, phones or other bits of social media to help their novels along. :-)


message 130: by Peter (new) - rated it 5 stars

Peter | 140 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Chapter 34: Summary

The couple arrive at the partially demolished manor house of the d’Urberville family, which is now functioning as a farmhouse, and see that they have the place to themselves. T..."


What a powerful chapter, and so beautifully written. I am constantly amazed at Hardy’s command of language and his breadth of symbols. May I ask if anyone else thinks the reference to the ‘panels built into the masonry’ of former d’Uberville women possibly has the following significance? Hardy tells us that ‘they can’t be moved away.’ We are also told that some of the features on these ancient d’Uberville ladies can also be found in Tess’s features. We are also told that a shaft of light enters the room where Tess is and its shaft “made a spot like a paint-mark” on her.

In these lines is it possible that Hardy is suggesting that Tess, like her forefathers (well, foremothers more accurately) is embedded into the d’Uberville history, that she is stained like them to fall, to be destroyed. Could we see the shaft of light that makes a ‘paint-mark’ on her to be aligned with the stigmata of the d’Uberville line?

The past is always catching up to Tess. The jewels she wears are a gift from the past. The necklace encircles her neck like a yoke. She tells Angel the truth of her past. While Tess accepts Angel’s confession how will Angel handle her confession?


message 131: by Pamela (new) - rated it 5 stars

Pamela Mclaren | 275 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Oh Angel! Oh Tess! Oh Mr. Hardy, leaving us in suspense at this point!

The original readers of “The Graphic” would have to wait a whole week before knowing what Angel’s reaction to Tess’s story w..."


I feel just like you, Jean!! What a cliff hanger! I'm leaving the house right now so I won't be tempted to keep reading.

This chapter felt so heavy with them arriving at the former property of the d'Urbervilles and finding those portraits, which looked so forbidding. Then the delay of their baggage and then finding out that two of the girls from the dairy have reacted badly to Tess' good fortune. Then the jewelry sent by Angel's father — it even feels that they are another dire message .... Oh my goodness, I feel so badly for Tess. Angel's confession is really not bad for the times and does not have the impact that Tess' will have.


Erich C | 131 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "8. The true reason for the license, and such a small ceremony."

This struck me as well. There are many indications in the text that, although Angel truly loves and admires (and overestimates) Tess, especially in her native element, he feels ashamed of who she is. He mentions her to his parents without formally introducing her (and in fact without even notifying them of his visit), and he also projects his own prejudices and reticence onto them when he vows to educate Tess to make her more presentable/acceptable.

Like his visit to his parents, his engagement with Tess is almost hasty, as if he wants to act without giving himself time to think it through. He doesn't publish the banns, but he also doesn't inform Tess until she brings it up. Although she is secretly relieved, why would he not want to declare his love publicly, even if he doesn't completely accept the precepts of the Church? Perhaps it is another example of his secret shame in marrying Tess, but it is also possible that he has different reasons to avoid the banns that are related to his own history.

In these chapters, as in Victorian novels/life in general, women had power in some ways but were not allowed much agency. It makes for good plots, but having to wait for men to court them, being forced into marriages by parents, or being dominated by bad husbands must have been hard for women of the time.


message 133: by Peter (new) - rated it 5 stars

Peter | 140 comments Erich C wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "8. The true reason for the license, and such a small ceremony."

This struck me as well. There are many indications in the text that, although Angel truly loves and admires (and..."


Hi Eric

Yes. Your comments make perfect sense to me. I also agree that women were often very restricted in having much, if any, say in the most important decisions of their own lives.


message 134: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Jantine wrote: " Tess denying and that way betraying her true self,..."

Yes! That would be a valid interpretation either too :)


message 135: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Peter - You make several good points here, and I especially like your interpretations of the quotation I posted about the shaft of light making a ‘paint-mark’, as "aligned with the stigmata of the d’Uberville line". I had puzzled over the symbolism there, but feel you are right and that it is like a d'Urberville stain on Tess's purity. Thank you!


message 136: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Pamela wrote: "Angel's confession is really not bad for the times and does not have the impact that Tess' will have ..."

This is our dread. We have not heard what Tess said, but are assured by Thomas Hardy that she is telling all. And I can't believe that wearing jewels - the trappings of vanity - will help her case.


Michaela | 42 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Pamela wrote: "Angel's confession is really not bad for the times and does not have the impact that Tess' will have ..."

This is our dread. We have not heard what Tess said, but are assured by [au..."


I thought of this too, especially since Hardy mentions it explicitly.


message 138: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 08, 2022 02:55PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Erich C wrote: "There are many indications in the text that, although Angel truly loves and admires (and overestimates) Tess, especially in her native element, he feels ashamed of who she is. ..."

This is an excellent post!

Thank you very much for picking that topic, and detailing all the instances of Angel's almost cloistered courtship, and what this implies. I personally believe it is "an example of his secret shame in marrying Tess" - which we've seen pointed out several times, and which Angel does not quite admit even to himself - but there could also be other reasons, as you say.


message 139: by [deleted user] (new)

The last chapter of this phase firmly brought us back into a gothic horror novel instead of the pastoral bliss of the previous chapters, didn't it? I loved all the foreshadowing and symbolism in this chapter! Like how warmth and light were drawn out in this house (it was very, very draughty ...), and how just before Jonathan came the chimney didn't pull for a moment like a giant hand choked it shut. With warmth and light not being drawn away came the consealment of the smoke. If a room is not open enough, smoke can kill and choke someone to death just like water can.


message 140: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Jantine wrote: "just before Jonathan came the chimney didn't pull for a moment like a giant hand choked it shut ..."

Wow yes! And the light effects were fantastic too. Thanks Jantine.

For those who are up to speed, there are introductory posts about the real life "Wellbridge House" where the honeymooning couple are staying, at the beginning of tomorrow's new thread. (No spoilers :) )


message 141: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 61 comments Everything about the partially demolished mansion where Tess and Angel will spend their wedding night bespeaks gloom, foreboding and a history of adversity. And the misfortune that attaches to the place is symbolically expressed by the gloomy portraits that are builded into the wall, they cannot be removed. Tess cannot escape her fate.
To make matters worse, both of these people seem to be emotionally pre-programmed to cause their relationship to self-destruct: After months of idealizing one another, on their wedding night they immediately embark on mutual confessions of past errors, ill-advised sexual relationships. What a way to start off their married life! There is no way this can go well!


message 142: by Bridget, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bridget | 866 comments Mod
Erich C wrote: "He doesn't publish the banns, but he also doesn't inform Tess until she brings it up. Although she is secretly relieved, why would he not want to declare his love publicly, even if he doesn't completely accept the precepts of the Church? Perhaps it is another example of his secret shame in marrying Tess, but it is also possible that he has different reasons to avoid the banns that are related to his own history..."

Erich, are you thinking Angel might have not posted the banns because of his own 48 hours trys in Londont? I wondered about that myself, when Angel reveals his past to Tess. Before that I assumed it was either his shame of Tess or his desire to go a different more modern path than the one his parents followed. But might it have been about himself and not Tess at all?


message 143: by Bridget, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bridget | 866 comments Mod
I find the Marian's death and Retty suicide attempt confusing/odd. I think it's generally assumed these acts happen because the women are despondent over their unrequited love of Angel. But that is odd to me, because they don't seem particularly close to Angel during his stay at the farm. Rather it appears they have schoolgirl crushes on him, which doesn't usually end in suicide.

Also, at the end of Chapter 31 they seem resigned to the fact that he will marry Tess and are even happy for Tess. They do seem rather close to and found of Tess in that chapter. Is it possible their despondency comes from the loss of Tess in their life, and not the loss of Angel? Or are they symbolic characters, and I shouldn't be thinking of them as representative of real women?


message 144: by David (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Bridget, Marian doesn’t die, she has been found, uncharacteristically, ‘dead drunk’.

I agree that their actions seem excessive given their happiness on Tess’s betrothal, and Hardy’s earlier words about young women of their standing accepting that they would be confined to marrying within their own class.

Might Hardy be using the milkmaids’ reactions to add further to Tess’s feelings of guilt in marrying the man they idolise, and feeling that she might, by accident, have rubbed salt in their wounds by asking Angel to kiss them each farewell?


message 145: by Janelle (last edited Oct 09, 2022 03:57PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Janelle | 58 comments Marian isn’t dead, is she? I think it says ‘dead drunk’.

I do agree their reactions are hysterical which does seem out of character.


message 146: by Bridget, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bridget | 866 comments Mod
Thank you Janelle and David. I did misread that. In my book the line ends with “dead” and the next line starts with “drunk” and I just skipped over it. I’m happy Marian is still alive!! Still think the girls reactions are exaggerated.


Erich C | 131 comments Bridget wrote: "Erich C wrote: "He doesn't publish the banns, but he also doesn't inform Tess until she brings it up. Although she is secretly relieved, why would he not want to declare his love publicly, even if ..."

Yes, I wondered if there might be something else in his past that we haven't heard about yet!


message 148: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 10, 2022 05:01AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
Bridget wrote: "Still think the girls reactions are exaggerated...."

Do you? I don't! I think it may have been made worse by them all living together closeted in the farmhouse, with the object of their adoration. These four were the only dairymaids "living in", as the others were mostly married, or male.

They were young, and we know that youngsters can feel that everything is a tragedy, even though we know they have their whole life ahead of them, e.g. as here, to get over what seems to others to be a "crush". But even nowadays a youngster can commit suicide over something like this, or exams, or (in the News here at the moment) cyber-bullying/suicide groups, or a teacher who is continually scathing to them (another real life case known to me). Granted there was no cyberbullying in Victorian times, but equally these girls were trapped in their small world, which our youngsters are not, and they only ever went out to go to church.

Also, we had warnings about Retty's depression, and she was the only one to actually try to kill herself. Earlier in the story, when Angel came back from visiting his parents, and saw Tess at the top of the stairs, Tess had said to him that Retty was ill. We were not told in what way, but Angel (albeit dismissively) also says in this chapter that "Retty was naturally morbid, you know".

We've also been told that Marian is the most confident, practical and sensible - but don't you think that it's possible she went to have a rare drink in an Inn to buck herself up, and since she never drank alcohol, easily succumbed to its depressive effects, and drank more and more until she passed out?

Izz, the quiet one, is coping, but Jonathan says she is "rather low, assuming it is because of her friends. Tess, asking Angel to kiss each of them in turn - albeit because she felt sorry for them - was probably the last straw. They had probably never been kissed before.

I think these three dairymaids (plus Tess) are all nicely delineated. These are just my personal interpretations though :)


message 149: by Bionic Jean, Moderator (last edited Oct 10, 2022 05:03AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 1992 comments Mod
The next thread is up and running :)

If you haven't yet commented about these chapters though, please do!


message 150: by Pankies (new)

Pankies (mrspankhurst) | 29 comments Hi All
I've been away on holiday and have been trying to catch up for a few days. I've really enjoyed reading all the insightful and erudite comments over the past several chapters. For what it's worth my (slightly random) two penny worth is:
I think the three milkmaids did accept that Tess had won Angel and also knew that socially, he was beyond them. However, neither of those logical realisations can fully extinguish desperate hope! Miracles are possible! However I think that once that the marriage has actually happened and Angel and Tess have left the farm, the last strands of hope are gone. They won't even catch glimpses of Angel any longer and in fact may never see him again. Also it is the depths of midwinter - dark, cold and a long way from spring. I completely understand each of them reacting in the way they did, and I think in Hardy's telling of it, there is some dark humour.

I enjoyed Angel's romancing of Tess, I know it was many chapters ago, but the garden scenes and the kissing of the "curdy hands" were beautiful. My criticisms of Angel is that he is a dreamer, he has put Tess on a pedestal as some sort of beautiful goddess of nature but hasn't recognised her true qualities (which Hardy tells us more than once are her devotedness and deep loyalty to him). He has dismissed her desire to confess her sins more than once and has scoffed at the idea that she has any secrets. Despite trying to break away from the church and his narrow family, he can't let go of snobbery about the d'Urberville name. He has a plan to "civilise" Tess and together with her lineage, present her to his parents to prove what a clever son he is.
I recently watched the Under The Greenwood Tree film with Keeley Hawes. There is a scene in the film with Fancy Day and Dick Dewy getting their hands mixed up in a basin of water. Does anyone know if that incident is also in the book or did the film makers steal it from Tess?
Hardy has indeed left us on a cliffhanger at the end of Phase 4, however all the (many) omens are definitely bad! I would like to think that maybe Hardy is about to reveal a feminist side....a woman's sins should not be judged more harshly than a man's. Especially when the man was a fully engaged participant in the 48 hours of sinning, rather than a half asleep naive girl who had no choice!


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