Works of Thomas Hardy discussion
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Tess of the D’Urbervilles
Tess of the d'Urbervilles
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Tess of the D'Urbervilles - Phase the Second: Chapter 12 - 15 and Phase the Third: Chapters 16 - 24
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Your thoughts?
We do have a dilemma. With Alec, Tess was faced with a man who was relentless in his pursuit of her. To attain Tess, Alec would go to any lengths. Tess, on the other hand, only had feelings of denial if not revulsion towards Alice. Now, Tess finds that Angel has wrapped himself and Tess in a tangle of philosophical and religious thought. They are very attracted to one another but a force field of circumstances holds them apart.
Surely something must give soon. Some human emotion must erupt. Hardy, however, keeps us in anticipation. There is such fine style in this narrative.
Rather than clarifying anything, this short chapter raises more questions about Tess's state of mind. She goes out of her way not only to avoid being alone near Angel but even to direct his attention away from herself onto the other girls. But how sincere is she in this? She acutely feels her loss of innocence and she must instinctively regret being disqualified from being in the running for Angel's favor even while deliberately turning away. This is far from being resolved ....
Mod
Exactly. Yesterday I asked: "Would Tess feel such regret if she was not attracted to Angel as he is to her? Or is it just that she feels flattered?"
Perhaps now is the time to look more at this, and what might transpire :)
Peter wrote: "We do have a dilemma. With Alec, Tess was faced with a man who was relentless in his pursuit of her. To attain Tess, Alec would go to any lengths. Tess, on the other hand, only had feelings of deni..."I agree with your assessment, Peter. The words are heavy with the anticipation that something will happen soon between these two, despite Tess' efforts to focus Angel's attentions on the other milkmaids.
Mod
It is Sunday morning, and Tess, Izz, Retty, and Marian are going to Mellstock church, a few miles away. It is Tess’s first time away from Talbothays since she got there. There was a storm the night before, and the water level in the river is high, but the air is clear. Soon they come to a part of the road that is flooded, and they don’t want to ruin their Sunday best clothes, by wading through it.
Angel comes wading around the corner, dressed in his work clothes. He no longer attends the church, preferring the outdoors. Today he is checking for any flood damage to the hay. He had seen the girls from far away and hurried to help them, particularly Tess. The four of them look very pretty clinging to the bank, with flies and butterflies trapped inside their gauzy dresses.
Angel offers to carry them one by one through the pool, but he avoids looking at Tess. All of them blush at his offer, and he starts with Marian. Izz builds up the moment before he comes for her, and when he gets Retty he glances at Tess. He returns for her and she is ashamed of her excitement, and tries to avoid being carried.
Angel starts to carry her, and compares her with Rachel from the Bible. Tess tries to compliment the other women, but Angel admits he carried them only to get to her. He says her name fondly and they both blush, but Angel realises he is in a position of power and goes no further. He walks slowly to prolong their time.
The others watch Tess, and then Marian blurts out that Angel likes Tess best. Their good moods have vanished, but they do not blame Tess, as they have the fatalism of their families, and accept things as they are. Tess realises then that she loves Angel as well.
Tess declares that she would refuse Angel if he asked her to marry him, but she also doesn’t think he will marry any of them. The other women decide to befriend Tess again, but they are deeply upset and suffer with emotions that “cruel Nature” has thrust upon them. They can see the logical futility of their passion, considering their social class, but they can’t help it.
Back at the farm that night, the four discuss Angel again, and say his family has picked out a doctor’s daughter for him to marry. They talk and weep late into the night. Tess then gives up hopes of marriage. She knows Angel has chosen her above the rest, but compared to them she is inferior in the “eyes of propriety”.
Mod
"Mellstock Church":
"The parish church of St Michael, Stinsford
Thomas Hardy based his "Mellstock" on a village he knew and loved very well, Stinsford. The Dorset village of Stinsford is little more than a cluster of cottages and farm buildings on the outskirts of Dorchester, (Thomas Hardy's "Casterbridge") above the River Frome. Located down a quiet lane stands the medieval church of St Michael.
Thomas Hardy loved this village so much that he willed his heart to be buried here in a grave beside his two wives. The Hardy grave is easy to spot; it stands to the left of the churchyard as you come through the churchyard gates. I think both David and Kelly have visited here too. (Hi both! Hope you're reading this :) )
This church is the setting for Thomas Hardy's first novel, Under the Greenwood Tree, and buildings in Stinsford also feature in Desperate Remedies. In today's chapter of Tess of the D'Urbervilles, it is where Tess and the other 3 dairymaids are walking, to attend church. We read that the river Frome had overflowed, in this memorable scene, so that Angel Clare has to carry them over the track.
Mod
This is the first chapter where we we are actually told Tess’s feelings, e.g. when the dairymaids first noticed Angel: “Four hearts gave a big throb simultaneously”.
It’s a lovely poignant chapter, beginning with an evocative pastoral description, and Thomas Hardy's sensitivity in observing all the different characters’ inner thoughts and feelings.
Mod
Angel too is out of his milieu. Thomas Hardy is creating an intellectual, trying to get back to his roots in Nature. The girls with insects trapped in their special Sunday best (i.e. church dresses) is an interesting image of the forces of Nature and Christian convention fighting within them.
Also, Tess is compared Tess with a religious figure, this time Rachel (Jacob’s favourite of the two sisters he married.) But those who know this Bible story might have an idea of what this might portend.
Mod
It’s quite a surprising scene really, as it is a very conservative image and contrasts with his usual scenes. Thomas Hardy presents the women as helpless objects of beauty, waiting for a man to carry them across the water. Earlier, Jane Austen had a similar scene about one of her heroines falling when out in a storm and having to be rescued (view spoiler).
This “rescue” is a contrast to Alec’s. Angel realises that Tess is at a disadvantage in clinging to him, and he behaves like a true gentleman, not abusing his power. Izzy had rather hoped that he would kiss her, and that was why she was so quiet and amenable: a humorous image to make us smile, but tinged with a poignant sadness too.
Mod
But Thomas Hardy criticises the arbitrary rules of society which makes Angel “unavailable” to the dairymaids, while their emotions are pure and in accord with Nature. Tess again tries to suppress her passion as a kind of sacrifice for Angel’s and her friends’ sake.
The mention of Angel’s intended wife (by his family) makes Tess realise that he still cares for social conventions, and she now views it as impossible that he should marry her, both because of both her class, as well as her past.
Your thoughts?
Bionic Jean wrote: "Another real life location:"Mellstock Church":
"The parish church of St Michael, Stinsford
Thomas Hardy based his "Mellstock" on a village he knew and loved very well, Stinsfor..."
Jean
I know virtually nothing of Hardy's biography and greatly enjoy the pictures and anecdotal information. The fact that Hardy requested his heart to be buried in the Stinsford churchyard I find very moving. Hardy’s life seems to be mirrored in much of his writing. This brings the reading of his novels into a more intimate level with me.
With Alec we had a man eager to get/take what he could from Tess. The young ladies at the ill-fated dance earlier in the novel, when combined with the hovering presence of Alec, form a sharp contrast to Angel and the group of milkmaids who work with Tess now.Hardy has deftly offered his readers comparisons and contrasts throughout the novel so far.
I also think that Hardy was having a good deal of fun with both his characters and his audience in this chapter — gently sending up the girls in their predicament; and providing Angel with a gratifying opportunity to embrace each of the girls in turn, culminating in his declaration of having experienced “three Leahs to get one Rachel.”But it ends poignantly, as Tess, regardless of having admitted, even to herself, that she is in love, insists that she can never marry.
This chapter has it all in a way: humor, sadness, love. I enjoyed reading it and yet it was surprisingly very short. I agree with you, Peter, on the comparison between Alec's actions and Angel. Perhaps it's because in a way, Alec is what I've heard called "new rich" - crass and uneducated in the ways of behavior — and Angel's family as "old rich."Just looked up the phrase 'new rich' (actually Nouveau riche) and Wikipedia says it is a "term used, usually in a derogatory way, to describe those whose wealth has been acquired within their own generation, rather than by familial inheritance. ... dates at least as far back as ancient Greece (c. 8th century BCE). In the 6th century BCE, the poet and aristocrat Theognis of Megara wrote how 'in former days, there was a tribe who knew no laws nor manners ... These men are nobles, now, the gentlemen of old are now the trash.' In the Roman Republic, the term novus homo ('new man') carried similar connotations."
Mod
I like your point about the comparisons and contrasts. Perhaps more will occur to us as we read on.
Mod
Mod
Yes, Alec d'Urberville and his mother are perfect examples of the nouveau riche. In England we always use the French term, for some reason: perhaps because it sounds more pretentious, so fits that category of people! If you watch English situation comedies, there are quite a few examples of the nouveau riche. They often behave in a crass way, as you say, "Alec is ... crass and uneducated in the ways of behavior" He does not behave like a gentleman.
To make things worse, Alec stole the coat of arms precisely because nobody wants to be called nouveau riche. Thus he and his mother are pretenders, having money but without class and manners, and pretending that he has a title, which he does not. In England - particularly at this time - it was thought better to be impoverished gentry. We don't talk of "old rich", but we do talk of "old money" and "old families".
"— and Angel's family as "old rich." No, I'm afraid not. Angel Clare is not from an old, or a rich, family. In Chapter 18 we were specifically told:
"He was the youngest son of his father, a poor parson at the other end of the county," who had difficulty in paying for their sons to be educated:
“What is the good of your mother and me economizing and stinting ourselves to give you a University education ..."
So the contrast between Alec and Angel is not related to money - except that Alec is flashy, and Angel deliberately dons the garb of a working farmer. It's more to do with honesty, honour, and intellect.
Mod
The rumor that Angel is practically engaged to someone has me thinking that Tess may find some reassurance there and let her guard down around Angel.
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Mod
It is the season of fertility and “oozing fatness” in Frome Valley, and it seems inevitable that passion should grow there. It is very hot outside, and the warmth echoes Angel’s feelings. All the workers, birds, and cows constantly seek shade or breeze.
One afternoon Tess starts milking one of her favourite cows, with her head resting meditatively in profile. Angel watches her, and her face is “lovable” to him, no longer otherworldly but real and vital, and her lips impossibly beautiful. Tess then realises that he is watching her but does not change her position. Angel is overcome by passion, all his prudent logic disappears, and he embraces her:
""He jumped up from his seat, and went quickly towards the desire of his eyes" - Joseph Syddall - "The Graphic" 5th September 1891
Tess is surprised, but accepts his action with “unreflecting inevitableness” and involuntarily gives a cry of joy. Angel again almost kisses her, but then apologises for not asking Tess’s permission, and declares his devotion to her.
The cow grows restless and Tess moves to save the milk. They sit together and Tess starts to cry. Angel worries that he has been too forward and taken advantage of her innocence. Dairyman Crick comes by again, but as they have gone back to their work. he does not notice that something has changed between Angel and Tess; something impractical but leading to a new perspective and future for them both.
Mod
However, there might be a note of caution. In one sense Tess is becoming more of a unique person for Angel and less of an ideal, but in many ways he has just exchanged the ideal of a goddess for an innocent maid, or pure child of Nature.
Now two men have caught Tess up in desire, although Angel contrasts with Alec in the chasteness of his advances; he hesitates where Alec did not. However much we might think Alec is a cad, we should note that both men used affectionate language, and swore that they loved her. What gives us a sense of foreboding is that Tess has not told Angel of her past. Neither did she at any time tell Alec she was expecting his child.
Both these instances show that Tess passively accepts her fate, but this time it is one she actually desires. Because we are rooting for Tess, we feel that makes a difference, and yet the ethics are not black and white. Tess grieves her unavoidable situation, in a society that would condemn her love and good fortune. A barrier has been broken between her and Angel, and the final sentence seems to suggest that their destinies are now inexorably bound together in some way.
And did you pick up all the instances of the rosy red hues mentioned in this chapter?
Mod
Hopefully others will be able to use our free day to catch up with the text. We’d love to hear your thoughts on these sections! Please continue our discussions or backtrack to catch up on our comments :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "About the cover picture: "Tess Cottage"
This is a recent photograph of an Elizabethan cottage in Marnhull village, Dorset. It was supposedly the model for Tess Durbeyfield's thatched cottage a..."
PER FIRST IMAGE for this phase:
Thank you, Jean. What a rich layer of meaning comes with your photos of the natural landscape and actual buildings like this. Truly, the story plays out in my Mind's Eye vividly because of Hardy's writing, but your images make this more grounded and realistic. Whether this comes from my age or from these images, I also understand Tess' challenges and choices as more realistic and relatable.
I see many other images, including maps and artwork, among the posts; I'll be rereading the chapters with these resources edifying my experience.
Everyone, I have been grading, planning lessons, and (at times) listening to students' stories through tears. I'm back to these discussions, but I'll be responding to individual posts along the way.
Please do not be offended if I miss one of yours because I will not be responding to every single one. In fact, if you are especially taken with a point you want to share, point it out to me. I will happily focus on that. Otherwise, I'm going to enjoy journeying through these conversations.
It's morning in the prairies of the United States. I hope you all enjoy a good new day now or soon . . . .
Jan
Mod
"because I will not be responding to every single one." Oh absolutely not! By all means backtrack and comment on the highlights of these 12 chapters, and our observations. As you know, we have tried to read these chapters paying close attention. But with 125 focused comments, please do not try to cover it all, nor reply to individuals (unless you feel it is important). Please just add what you would like to say.
This applies to anyone who might feel they are a little behind ... please don't worry!
We have a little time to breathe, and move on after tomorrow ...
What a fantastic opening paragraph to Chapter 24! the rush of juices could almost be heard below the hiss of fertilizationIt’s easy to see why Hardy suffered condemnation by the bluestockings of his day! And he doesn’t stop there, he doubles down.
Angel, gazes at Tess’s lips But no — they were not perfect. And it was the touch of the imperfect upon the would-be perfect that gave the sweetness, because it was that which gave her the humanity. These are lines that could only have been written by a man who has found himself passionately in love!
Contemplating Tess’s lips “actually produced, by some mysterious physiological phenomenon, a prosaic sneeze.” Remarkably, Hardy seems to have been aware of a phenomenon that some years later became known as "Fliess’ Syndrome", having been discussed in Freud’s The Complete Letters of Sigmund Freud to Wilhelm Fliess 1887-04 It is further described in the JRSM: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
Mod
The descriptions of nature here do border on the erotic, don't they?
Bionic Jean wrote: "Pamela - Thank you for searching out the the definition of "nouveau riche" :) Yes, Alec d'Urberville and his mother are perfect examples of the nouveau riche. In England we always use the French ..."
I'd forgotten that part, Jean. Thanks for noting it — I'm not sure where I got the idea his family was rich, perhaps its just stuck how he got introduced when he joined the farm and how the milkmaids thought of their chances with him.
And that makes Chapter 24 even more poignant because we have felt the growing attraction between Angel and Tess. Like you, Jean, I noticed that she allowed the attraction without thinking that she shouldn't let it move forward in ignorance of her background. So while this chapter had loads of poignancy, there is a hint that things may finally go right for Tess, could turn out otherwise.
Mod
Not to worry Pamela! It's easily done when we're presented with lots of information in these classic novels, but I know this one very well, so I just used the links to the summaries to locate the right chapter :)
You're right that the uneducated milkmaids would assume "Mr. Clare" is from a wealthy family, because he is well spoken and has more advantages than they do.
Tess seems almost to be hiding her true feelings for Angel even from herself. The "inevitableness" of their embrace is more a statement about fate than that Tess believed it would happen. Although Tess shows initiative in some ways (such as leaving home), with both Alec and Angel she is fairly passive in crucial moments. Perhaps she either doesn't know what she feels or doesn't trust her feelings.
Mod
I completely agree Erich. Tess's passivity is something which drives the plot, but often it is unacknowledged in the rush to blame either other individuals, or society at large. I'll add this to our list of topics to discuss when we complete the novel :) (That isn't a put-off for discussing it now though of course!)
I have disciplined myself, thus far, to reading at the agreed pace, and that is really enhancing my enjoyment, as well as allowing me to appreciate Hardy’s almost teasing, near-languid scene-setting. What I have been doing is reading each chapter on Kindle whilst listening to an audio version which is organised chapter by chapter (there are some very slight textual differences, but no biggies). I’m also bookmarking my 1978 Pan paperback, so that I can see progress visually. The audio version I’m using is on Spotify here:
https://open.spotify.com/show/64F6GQ3...
It’s interesting that the narrator of the audiobook (his Dorset accent in the dialogue passages isn’t bad at all) pronounces ‘Talnothays’ with the ‘th’ as in ‘thirty’, whereas I had always assumed it to be ‘Talbot-hays’. Has anyone else made an assumption about the pronuncuation of the farm’s name?
I know I have read Tess before, but I hardly remember anything after the first phase. This all seemed quite new to me somehow. I see why I lost track and interest in this phase, since at first glance it all seems to be going uphill, and the conflict there is (every story needs conflict after all) is almost too sweet and romantic. They are together swooning over the man they can never have, while he is brooding and falling in love with one of them.
As it is now, I notice the stark contrast with the second phase. There Tess got into problems, because she fled into the arms of Alec, driven by the other women of her own class who were lusting after him and jealous of the unwanted attention Tess got. Here there is not (real) jealousy and competition over lust, but the girls have a real - allbeit romantic and naive - love and recognize this in each other, and they are there for each other in their sadness that they cannot 'have' Angel. They know he prefers Tess, and they'd do their best to be happy for her that he chose one of their number, even if it breaks their own heart. This stands in contrast to the women in the other phase preparing to hurt Tess because they cannot have Alec.
Then there is the comparison to Alec and Angel. Yes, they both have lustful feelings for Tess, they both think they love her. But where Alec drops the girls he gave attention before like a hot potato, Angel still carries them over the stream just as gallantly, even if his heart is not with them. And where Alec seems to try and find ways to Tess and her heart and most importantly her body, Angel checks himself and even mentions that he certainly does not want to do anything without her consent.
From what I remember from last time there will probably be reasons to dislike Angel just the same, but for now I loved finding out about all the contrast.
Also I know I don't post much. I have quite a busy time at work, and while reading is a great escape, at the moment I find time to read in 'batches', and it seems to be a bit harder to put my thoughts into proper English sentences afterwards. So when I come to it you all have made so many great points it is hard to say something that hasn't been said before. ;-)
As it is now, I notice the stark contrast with the second phase. There Tess got into problems, because she fled into the arms of Alec, driven by the other women of her own class who were lusting after him and jealous of the unwanted attention Tess got. Here there is not (real) jealousy and competition over lust, but the girls have a real - allbeit romantic and naive - love and recognize this in each other, and they are there for each other in their sadness that they cannot 'have' Angel. They know he prefers Tess, and they'd do their best to be happy for her that he chose one of their number, even if it breaks their own heart. This stands in contrast to the women in the other phase preparing to hurt Tess because they cannot have Alec.
Then there is the comparison to Alec and Angel. Yes, they both have lustful feelings for Tess, they both think they love her. But where Alec drops the girls he gave attention before like a hot potato, Angel still carries them over the stream just as gallantly, even if his heart is not with them. And where Alec seems to try and find ways to Tess and her heart and most importantly her body, Angel checks himself and even mentions that he certainly does not want to do anything without her consent.
From what I remember from last time there will probably be reasons to dislike Angel just the same, but for now I loved finding out about all the contrast.
Also I know I don't post much. I have quite a busy time at work, and while reading is a great escape, at the moment I find time to read in 'batches', and it seems to be a bit harder to put my thoughts into proper English sentences afterwards. So when I come to it you all have made so many great points it is hard to say something that hasn't been said before. ;-)
I hadn't thought of comparing the earlier women to the milkmaids. Good point!
Mod
Thank you for commenting, David and also for sharing the link to an audio version. I'm sure some will like to try that out :)
"I had always assumed it to be ‘Talbot-hays’"
I suspect you are probably right there, (although I too inwardly pronounce the "th") the reason being that it looks as if it is an amalgam of 2 English names: "Talbot" and "Hayes".
But that's just my suspicion ... someone may know better!
Mod
I am always in awe of those who can read and enjoy a classic author like Thomas Hardy when English is not their first language :) Please do take it at your own speed; some chapters are far shorter or more straightforward than others, so I can understand why you find it better to "read in 'batches'" - and I hope that at that point you will keep coming in to comment again :)
The thing is, that while you say "it is hard to say something that hasn't been said before" - and I have had others messaging me with similar thoughts - the way that you put all the connections together and see it, will be unique.
A perfect example of this is when Erich said that you have made a good point in "comparing the earlier women to the milkmaids".
As a group, we knew - and commented on - the fact that Tess ran away from the scorn of Car Darch. We knew that Tess was only laughing - as the other girls were - at the treacle running down Car's back. But Tess preferred a momentary victory, and leapt on Alec's horse to get away from the laughing crowd (as she saw it).
The milkmaids behave more kindly, accepting that Tess is singled out by Angel Clare and they are not. We can see reasons - there is nobody who has been slighted in the way Car Darch was by her ex-lover Alec d'Urberville, for instance - but it is you Jantine, who has highlighted the comparison :)
Please everyone, do come in and comment when you like! Don't assume that what is in your mind has already been said. It probably has slightly different nuances :) And that will make it interesting and helpful to us all.
Mod
That's so interesting how the audio version pronounces Talbothays. I've wondered many times how that word is pronounced. I've been skipping the "th" like you and Jean and wondering if I'm even close to getting it right. I think I'm in good company with the two of you and shall carry on that way!
Mod
Looking forward to hearing what people think of it so far :)
Works of Thomas Hardy
Books mentioned in this topic
The Complete Letters of Sigmund Freud to Wilhelm Fliess 1887-04 (other topics)Under the Greenwood Tree (other topics)
Sense and Sensibility (other topics)
Tess of the D’Urbervilles (other topics)
Desperate Remedies (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Thomas Hardy (other topics)Thomas Hardy (other topics)
Thomas Hardy (other topics)
Thomas Hardy (other topics)
Thomas Hardy (other topics)
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“I would just marry ’n to-morrow!”
“So would I—and more,” murmured Izz Huett.
“And I too,” whispered the more timid Retty.”
Dairyman Crick calls Tess ““maidy” (he frequently, with unconscious irony, gave her this pet name)”,
as she is unmarried.
Bridget reminded us of a thought back in Chapter 20, a reference to “Magdalen”. Here it is, about Angel and Tess:
"The mixed, singular, luminous gloom in which they walked along together to the spot where the cows lay often made him think of the Resurrection hour. He little thought that the Magdalen might be at his side."
Given the meaning of "Magdalen" as a prostitute, should we be worried about this? Or is it a backward reference, only?
However, although Tess has had a baby, and is no longer innocent as she appears, her attitude is still not fully mature. It is inexperienced in a different way, expecting all men to behave as Alec did. Will this serve her well? We need to remember that Tess has no guide.