Jane Austen discussion
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Is Mr Hurst the brother in law of Caroline Bingley, ie he'd married Bingley's other sister?I haven't read P&P in a while, but in the celebrated Colin Firth TV version, Mr Hurst (if I've remembered who he is correctly!) was portrayed as little more than a drunken idiot.
I wonder what sort of plot was woven around him in the book you are seeking?!!
Any idea what Caroline Bingley's sister died of? IIRC the couple didn't (as yet) have any children (or maybe just left them at home - wherever that was! - with the nannies!)
Yes Hurst is the brother-in-law and in the book was also more or less a drunken idiot. The plots that redeem him seem to fall into two categories either he has some sort of wakeup call and becomes better or he has been pretending to avoid having to interact with Caroline (and often also his wife). I think she died in childbirth but I can't remember if the child survived or not. I think it did and the fact of being left to raise the child on his own might have been part of the wakeup call
I have not read the book you are describing.I think Austen described Hurst as a man preoccupied with eating, drinking, and playing cards. She made have included shooting in that list.
Ah, glad I remembered - more or less!It would be good if he improved himself (or felt free not to have to get drunk every evening to blot out Caroline Bingley!)
There are so, so many minor characters in Austen and so many would make novels of their own. Some of the tiresome ones might be redeemable, but I'm not sure all of them could be. Could Wyckam, Caroline Bingley, Mr Eliot???
I guess that is what comes from having too much time and money on ones hands. I think being rich and idle is not such a good thing then or now.
I redeemed Caroline Bingley in my first book. She had no other romantic prospects because she had deluded herself about Darcy. Elizabeth was a forgiving sort and kind of told her she wouldn’t have been happy living there n the country 8-9 months if the year. So Caroline woke up and snagged a wealthy and handsome tradesman!
Maybe Colonel Fitzwilliam if she could become a nice person as an alternative spouse. I think she is a permanent mean girl, though.
I guess that is what comes from having too much time and money on ones hands. I think being rich and idle is not such a good thing then or now.**
I suspect, too, it reflects that the Bingley's are 'rootless'. The previous generation (or one before) made the money, but they don't seem, at present, to have settled themselves down in the country, ie, bought an estate. I believe the end of P&P indicates they will do so, somewhere near Pemberley?
I think this makes a difference. If you are a rich young lady, brought up as 'daughter of the manor' so to speak, you have a social function that goes beyond dressing up and entertaining. You learn, from your mother, how to run a large household, managing a large staff, managing the household accounts, and, in short, how to be a 'chatelaine'.
Plus, you have a social role in the village. You keep an eye on things, both as 'Lady Bountiful' (Emma does a good amount of this we are told), and also perhaps to set up schools, ally yourself to the vicar (or he to her!) etc etc.
It is, in effect, your 'job', and one that your mother will train you to do well when you marry a 'lord of the manor' and become a 'lady of the manor' in your own right
We don't see any signs of Caroline Bingley doing anything of the sort, so she is, as you say, too rich and too idle.
I'm just rereading Persuasion currently, and it seems that the horrible Elizabeth Eliot (who would, I am sure, happily be friends with kindred spirit Caroline Bingley!) does little 'for the village' which is all left up to Anne.
Gosh, would Caroline Bingley really marry a tradesman? If she does, it must definitely be 'lurve'!!!! :)
The question of Caroline Bingley's 'redeemability' does raise the general question of whether any of the 'dodgy' characters in Austen do actually improve at all, or signs are given that they can/will improve.I think it's made clear that Julia Bertram, and her rather flaky 'fashionable fribble' of a fiance, Mr Yates, will 'improve' somewhat, under the beneficial influence of Mansfield Park once Mrs Norris is departed, and Fanny holds sway.
We are given hints that Kitty Bennet might grow up better without Lydia to pull her in the wrong direction.
Tom Bertram will improve after his near death experience, though we don't really see much of that, do we?
In Persuasion, Louise Musgrove becomes a lot, lot quieter, though there was nothing actually wrong with her character beforehand (Wentworth accentuated her determined impulsiveness by his erroneous praising of course, to her detriment - and nearly her death!).
Harriet Smith in Emma improves, but she was never 'nasty' in the first place, only over-impressionable and over-persuadable (though resisting Emma in full flood would have taken a stronger character than she was!!!)
Overall, perhaps 'weak' characters can improve, but 'nasty' ones don't? Would that be fair?
That is probably fair. Although I would say they also have to be willing to accept personal responsibility. Not whine about how they had to marry someone so they were not poor, etc, and own their actions. Hopefully Jane Fairfax can whip Frank Churchill into shape. She deserves better.
@Melissa MilnerHi Melissa, this might be the story you're looking for. I looked through a few of the chapters and it seems to match your description. Let me know if it helps.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/242...
I think I would enjoy watching Harriet Smith blossom so to speak under the care of the Martin family. She enjoyed the summer she spent there. Mrs. Martin is still alive and Harriet has no mother. She only is to meet her wealthy tradesman father at the end of Persuasion. Since Mr. Martin is a successful farmer, his fortunes are on the rise. Harriet could be taught many things about checking on the families of her husband’s labourers. I think she would do well as a less gentrified daughter of the manor.As far as Elizabeth Elliott goes, that’s a book that writes itself, a sequel to Persuasion. What is she to do? William Elliott has shown his true colors. Both her younger sisters are married. Her fortunes are falling because her father has to retrench. The ‘years of danger’ are upon her. The only thing in her favour is living in Bath could give her a wider circle of acquaintance than Kellynch ever could.
BTW, Beth, and anyone else in this thread from the UK, so sorry about the loss of your esteemed monarch, Elizabeth.
Beth-In-UKre 'weak can improve' but 'nasty doesn't'
I once drew a character arc for Mrs. Norris. It was a dead flat line. She is a nasty B from the time she brings Fanny to Mansfield Park until she is exiled.
If you would like all the details (several pages), send me a note.
Interesting thoughts!I think Harriet and Robert Martin will make an excellent couple - and yes, Mrs Martin senior will 'mother' Harriet nicely. Harriet, now she has been 'polished' by Emma (and remember Mr Knightley does genuinely praise Harriet to Emma later in the novel), will 'improve' Robert's sisters, ie, make them more 'genteel' (funny how the very word 'genteel' sounds vulgar - very Lucy Steele!).
Robert too is definitely on the - remember he meets Harriet again when she had gone to stay in London with Isabella Knightley (which, again for Harriet, is confirmation that she is eligible to move in those circles as a guest, thanks to Emma's polishing), and the John Knightleys invite him to stay for dinner (again, as an equal, a guest).
Best of all, Mr (George) Knightley thinks well of Robert Martin as an intelligent man and an entreprenurial farmer (though he will need to buy his own land at some point, which I don't think he does, does he yet?, to move 'up' into gentry level.)
Thanks to Emma taking up Harriet, and Mr Knightley approving of Robert Martin, I can see Mr and Mrs R Martin being invited on social occasions by Emma and Mr K.
I can well believe Mrs Norris gets stuck at 'nasty'!!
I'm a bit more lenient about Frank Churchill. Yes he 'played' everyone, but he was batting on a sticky wicket. He basically was 'playing for time' hoping his aunt, Mrs Churchill, wouldn't find out about his secret engagement to a penniless girl she'd never approve of, and therefore might disinherit him (shades of Willoughby and his rich aunt???), and trying to keep Jane 'sweet' while waiting for his aunt to die and leave him her fortune.Venal, yes, but after all, did he do that much damage to anyone? If he'd refused to return to Highbury at all, his father Mr Weston woud have been upset, ie, not making a bridal visit.
Jane really was the problem for him - he should have done more to reassure her that he was committed to the engagement. Do we know whether Jane knew he was only 'pretending' to flirt with Emma to throw dust in everyone's eyes? Or did Jane fear Frank was 'going off her' and taking a shine to Emma for real?
All that said, I still think Jane's ideal husband would have been Mr Knightley and she his ideal wife, but, of course, as in real life, those 'ideally suited' to each other don't always fall for each other....
Yes, what is Elizabeth Eliot to do? She's 30 on her next birthday (and, in way, Austen seems more lenient about women being single at that age still - assuming they have social position and sufficient wealth I guess - given that in most Regency romances we read these days girls are said to be 'ape-leaders' once they hit 25 if not sooner!)She's safe enough while her father is alive, but the moment he pegs out, or, worse, falls prey to another Mrs Clay and has a son, she will be very, very vulnerable indeed, especially since the money is running out.
Are there any 'spare' characters in the other Austen novels who might 'do' for her I wonder? It would need to be a man who valued social position above all, and a handsome (if ageing!) wife (though as a matron, not a maiden, being in her 30s won't matter).
Do any suitable suitors come to mind? They can't be very nice chaps, obviously since EE is such a cow. None spring immediately to mind, I must say,
Mind you, she might enjoy marrying 'down' (providing there's money!) so she can enjoy feeling herself the most important person around!
She might find a bit of redemption with Tom as he became a better person. with Tinley they would surely make an awful pair.
Frederica from Lady Susan could use a friend. Catherine Moreland is very nice. She could use someone like her.
Whoever ends up being the future Mrs. Frederick Tilney will definitely end up with some misery. He didn’t seem to think much of women.
Come on, Martin! Give us a few tidbits about Mrs. Norris’ flat-lined character arc! Did she blackmail anyone? She certainly did withhold heat from Fanny, but would have had difficulty withholding food, as I believe Fanny ate with the family. Maybe she tried working Fanny to death a la Cinderella?
Fanny did not work. Remember picking roses was too much for her on a warm day. They had servants. But the fire in her room thing was nasty and it was not even Mrs Norris's house! The temerity of that woman.
Yes, but it sounded like this was new content that Martin wrote. So he can take Mrs. Norris’ nastiness in any direction. Think of the possibilities!
Where is Martin 's comment? Or are you requesting his wisdom?
I wouldn't want to land Tom Bertram with Elizabeth Eliot (though she'll enjoy being Lady Bertram!), especially after his near death experience improving him. Plus, isn't he too young, still in his mid-twenties?Captain Tilney is better suited - as in, not nice either!
Yes, the no-fire business is not nice. Mrs N both wants to save money (anyone's money!) but is also bullying and punishing Fanny simply because she can.
She is a rather delicious villain. I bet she has adequate heat in her shame cottage with Maria.
Quite right! Her economizing always seems to be directed at others.
She was certainly only intending to have Fanny live with her - if she had to! - if she could use her as a maid.
BTW, Beth, and anyone else in this thread from the UK, so sorry about the loss of your esteemed monarch, Elizabeth.**
Thank you - it came as a huge shock. One days she's 'kissing hands' with the new Prime Minister (well, the PM doesn't actually kiss hands, just shakes, like you see in the photo - where the Queen is looking pretty good), then she skips a Privy Council meeting the next day (but she'd been skipping lots of things, on and off, ever since Prince Philip died last year really)(as she is, after all, 96), and then on Thursday it was the BBC news replacing programmes, the royal family flying in, and the announcers saying the doctors were 'concerned' about her, and she was in bed but 'comfortable' - the docs had never used the term 'concerned' before apparently.
Then came the 6.30 evening news and that was it. I couldn't believe it! Still can't really,
They are not saying, yet, what she actually died of - she had had 'mobility problems' for over a year, but that was it, plus she was 96 of course. It was, one assumes, either a stroke or a heart attack - nothing else could kill her within 48 hours I don't think??
I definitely thought she'd go till 100 - her own mother did, and as I say, there were no reports of serious ill health. Lots of very old people manage to keep going, if slowly, even with health problems.
For Charles, it's a mixed situation, but had the queen lived longer he'd have been even older before succeeding.
Gradually the UK will get used to him - at the moment the UK is still in both shock, and doing all the 'homage' stuff, for the funeral tomorrow.
In a way, too, for her, it's nice she didn't have to live too long without Philip. They met when she was 14 I believe, and she fell for him there and then, and that was it. Lasted 82 years, her love for him. Not bad going!!!
With a 70 year reign she is likely synonymous with the monarchy for most of her subjects. It will take a while to adjust to Charles.
Oh, completely.I know the newscasters are very carefullly referring to Camilla as 'The Queen Consort' which is her actual title and role, but I think it will be a long while before - if ever - she is referred to as 'The Queen' (which, after all, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, also a Queen Consort to George VI, was called in general.)
I think 'The Queen' will mean 'Queen Elizabeth II' for a long, long time - possibly all of Charles's reign (which can't last more than a 'mere' (!) quarter of a century, max, given his age now.)
Will Camilla be the Queen Mother? Or will she not be because she is a step-mother of the next king? And it is odd thinking of anyone else as "The Queen" even though other countries have them. I just saw a sweet picture of Swedish princesses at some public event in t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers. So different from how you see Princess Charlotte attired in public, also very sweet, but always in a dress, always more formal.
I think there'd be a hell of a fuss if she wanted to be Queen Mother, because, as you say, she is only a stepmother to William - plus, of course, she was his mother's adulterous rival for his father's affections!!!!! I think William and Harry do a good job of getting on with her. OK, the whole situation was a mess from the start, as Charles always wanted to marry Camilla, but she was considered, so one understands, 'unsuitable' (had had too many boyfriends etc??)(remember this was a generation ago), so he married Di instead - but apparently never told Di he intended to keep going with Camilla (OR, did he only take up with Camilla again once his marriage was on the rocks?? Who knows, who knows....)Anyway, Camilla, pretty much rehabilitated now, will be the Queen Consort, which is what all wives of kings are, though she may, eventually, be referred to as Queen Camilla?? We'll see!
The Scandi royals tend to be more informal, like the Dutch, but there will probably be carefully staged photos of the British royal children looking more casual from time to time. It's a delicate balance between making the public feel royals are 'one of us' and keeping the 'mystique' going!
I think a key reason QEII was 'The Queen' all over the world to an extent was simply because she was, because of the Commonwealth actually Queen of many, many countries! I don't think any of the monarchs are monarchs of any country but their ownOf course, a lot of commonwealth countries ahve already become republics, and more are likely I expect, especially now we are into a new era
I watched the long funeral and it was facinating on all accunts. Good luck to great Britian with the new reign
It was a shock, but already I think we are 'settling down' perhaps. Time moves on, and what seemed unthinkable - ie, the Queen being no more - is now reality.I hope Charles gets a few good years - must say, I wouldn't like to be in my seventies and suddenly have to be the monarch of the UK! But then he's waited and waited and waited, so hopefully he'll enjoy it now.
More will fall on William's shoulders, but that will prep him for when it's 'his turn'. He and Kate must ensure now their children have as carefree and normal a childhood as possible while they are still only the grandchildren of the monarch, not when they become the children.
What I remember is that it features a widowed Mr. Hurst who spends the winter at Pemberley. He has a sister who joins him there as well as possibly an eccentric or influential aunt I think. As a result of his changed circumstances and the company it changes how Darcy next approaches Elizabeth.
I can't seem to hit on any search criteria that have enabled me to find this variation. It was most likely available on kindle unlimited but I may have read it on a fanfiction site as well...
Any help would be appreciated if you can point me to it! Recommendations of other stories featuring redeemed Hursts are also welcome!