"Nettle & Bone" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

A few questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?
2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?
3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?
4. What worked or didn't for you?
5. Overall thoughts?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[Tina Reads]

1. What did you think of Marra's journey? I thought that it met the quest elements of the fairy tale, subverting some of the tropes to move the story along and make it more interesting. Some parts I liked more than others, such as the dust witch taking Marra to the goblin market vs. not caring for the part when she was making Bonedog and her time in the Mist.


2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this? Obviously, Cinderella because of the Fairy Godmother. I kept thinking of The Nightmare Before Christmas because of Bone Dog, because he reminded me of Zero. I thought of some of the Russian fairy tales because of the three impossible tasks. Honestly, there was a lot to pick from.

3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you? The Toothdancer was pretty freaky, and if I were Marra, I'd probably have been more frightened. Same with the Zombies/Undead. The difference is that we hope that the real life monsters get their comeuppance like Vorling did, while the horror elements exist just to frighten.

4. What worked or didn't for you? I thought Marra was too timid for someone who was able to complete two impossible tasks and gather allies to save her sister. I would have liked her to have more agency instead of letting herself be led on her own quest.

5. Overall thoughts? I liked it but wasn't blown away by the novella. I might have had my expectations too high because I recently read her novella, What Moves The Dead, and just loved it to pieces. There's also a glut of Fairy Tale trope twisting novellas in the past few years and I've read a fair number of them. I gave it four stars in any event. :)

[Colin]

I read this a month or so ago but the book has stayed with me. I loved it. I think Marra was an excellent hero and here's why. She doesn't think she very smart and she starts off timid and she doesn't think she can do things, but ... She is sharp (sharper than she thinks she is) and she is extremely persistent. She perseveres and she gets the job done. She puts together what struck me as a Mission Impossible team and then put them in position to use their skills and accomplish the mission. Sometimes the measure of a hero is the result you produce, not how you look arranging for it to happen.

To me, this pulls from a number of fairy tales such as Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty. Basically, any of the tales with the prince/princess dynamic where the prince has a rescuer/savior mode and they live happily ever after. This story, of course, twists that 180 degrees, with the prince as a serial abuser. The dynamic between the king/prince and the godmother is also good as the king/prince are also trapped.

To me, the supernatural horrors are scary but not too bad. The prince is the really horrifying character because he evokes too many real-world stories.

Overall, as I noted, I loved the book. The only thing is that I was hoping for was more from the demon chicken ...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

haha loved the demon chicken!

super interesting thoughts, both of you!

[Ellen]

I just recently rewatched Shrek and kept seeing and hearing Prince Vorling as Lord Farquaad in my head.

[Veronika]

Ellen wrote: "I just recently rewatched Shrek and kept seeing and hearing Prince Vorling as Lord Farquaad in my head."

I was sometimes thinking the same! :D

[Tina Reads]

Ellen wrote: "I just recently rewatched Shrek and kept seeing and hearing Prince Vorling as Lord Farquaad in my head."

YES! Vorling really did give off Farquaad vibes!

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

I think I always picture royalty in such fantasy settings to look like Farquaad, but the portrayal of Vorling was believably repulsive to me in a way that I'm not used to getting in the genre. Authors usually give us a villain who cares nothing for the lives of others and are quick to kill. Maybe they'll have some moustache twirling whilst someone is getting tortured. But Vorling... His evil was too grounded. Ambitious but not highfalutin. I had no problem believing that Marra would want to kill him despite her family issues. It was done with such nuance rather than simply having our hero want to protect her family because they're her family.

[Bonnie]

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?
I liked the story more as they added more people and animals to their company, so there was more going on.
2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?
The Six Swans, due to Marra painfully spinning and sewing for her selfless task, like in Daughter of the Forest.
3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?
Real world: Damia having died, and then Kania being trapped with abuse and constant pregnancies.
4. What worked or didn't for you?
Due to the In Media Res beginning, I thought the blistered lands might be around more as a problem to be solved in the kingdom. Not sure if Kania "hating" Marra was true or a child's impression.
+A lot of little pieces came together. +Sense of humor. +Modern sensibility still worked within the fairy tale setting.
5. Overall thoughts?
Finder the chick, demon hen, Bonedog!

[Mareike]

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?
I liked it! It felt like a classic fairytale quest, but weirder. And with a more realistic reason.
I do think some of the journey - especially back North - happened a little too quickly, but any sidequests at that point would also have felt like padding, so….
I guess I would have liked some more scenes that more explicitly explored all the different characters bonding and becoming friends, because the moments where characters confront each other and/or bond in someway were some of my favorites. Marra meeting Agnes, especially. The way her anger gets the better of her and she then learns new details and has to reconsider some of her assumptions was quite well done, imho.

I also liked that we see her grow in confidence in a believable way. Like in this quote when she confronts Vorling:

Marra lifted her chin and met Vorling’s eyes. You are not so big. You are only a living king. I saw an old woman defeat a dead one. You cannot hurt me any worse than spinning thread of nettle wool, and you cannot confuse me any more than the palace of dust. Even your cruelty is small compared to the blistered land.

I also liked that Marra was a character who didn’t quite understand all the things going on on the diplomatic level, but in a way that felt believable, not like naivety for naivety’s sake, if that makes sense.
And I was wondering whether she is supposed to read as a little autistic. She clearly has trouble with some social cues and does not understand why people lie about stuff, among other things. (I think this thought first crossed my mind when she finds out that Vorling is abusing her sister and the fact that this might be possible, or that he had killed Damia, had never even crossed her mind.)

2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?
As other people have mentioned: Seven Swans and Sleeping Beauty. I feel like there’s others I’m missing, though.

I did go and re-read Christina Rossetti’s “The Goblin Market” when Marra and the dust-wife went to the goblin market in the book and that’s definitely a nice companion piece. Though of course not a folk tale in the traditional sense.

3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?

The real world problems were definitely scarier. I think the “artificial” horror of the supernatural elements worked well to set off and heighten the real world issues.
This sentence was particularly chilling:

“ He took another step toward her and Kania took a step back. Marra pushed herself between them, wondering if decorum would hold him, knowing in her bones that if a king decided to beat his wife and her sister in front of the court, the court would stand there and watch.”

I’m also still thinking about this bit:

“She doesn’t mean to be cruel,” said Kania. “She isn’t. She stopped a war by marrying our family into Vorling’s. The Northern Kingdom would have rolled over us like a tide and our people would all be feeding the crabs by now. She had to choose the people over us, and use our bodies to seal the deal.” She rubbed absently at her forearm, where the bruises were yellow and faded. “She saved thousands of lives.” “I know,” said Marra. “I know.”

We only see the Queen through Marra’s eyes and her thoughts are obviously very tinged by her experiences and by the fact that she only figures out some of the political machinations and pitfalls belatedly.
But imagine being this mother, losing one daughter to Vorling, and then having to marry the next one to him to avoid your country being overrun. Ooof.

Of the supernatural elements, I found the curse-child and the thief-wheel the most creepy. The innkeepers refusal to be helped was heartbreaking.

4. What worked or didn't for you?
As I said in my review (and above), I would have liked a little more time spent on the relationships between the main group and how their friendships grow.
And some of the developments/solutions felt a little too pat, but that’s the fairytale element, I guess, so I wasn’t too troubled by it.

5. Overall thoughts?
I really liked how this played with fairytale elements. The godmothers are a good example. We all know of fairy godmothers, but this tale took the concept and did something interesting with it.
Agnes is a fascinating character and I would take a whole second book just about her and the dust-wife’s lives after this one.
The fact that Agnes is introduced as this flighty, marginally powerful old lady and then slowly revealed to be someone of incredible power who chooses not to use it because it wouldn’t “be decent” was really well done.

I also really like the concept of dust-wives and the main dust-wife in particular. (What can I say, I apparently really like grumpy old women as characters. XD)

I loved that this is a book about what we do to help the people we care about. Marra isn’t a “chosen one” in any traditional sense of the word, but she’s determined to help her sister, even if she has to talk to strangers, build a bonedog, or kill a prince to do it.
This exchange between the Northern Kingdom’s godmother and the dustr-wife felt almost like a nice summary for much of the book:

“I could have died when the spell broke,” said the godmother. “I thought about it. But I was curious as to who had finally set me free.” She searched the dust-wife’s face, took in the coat full of pockets and the brown hen hunkered down on the staff. “Why? I have never done you a kindness. And we are a long, long way from your own beloved dead.” “A friend asked me to,” said the dust-wife.

In some ways, it’s also a book about healing. Especially for Marra, who for so long thought her sister hated her. (The fact that she took the words of an angry teen literal for so many years also made me wonder about her being autistic.) This bit was also very nice:

Kania did not watch. She turned to Marra, and Marra recognized the look in her eyes. It was the look that she had as a child, when she had been doing something she should not have done. It said, Don’t you dare tell on me, or I will end you. It settled Marra’s nerves as hardly anything else could. Suddenly they were both children, both in this together, and the awareness of her sister’s hate, the one that had been under her breastbone since she was a child, fell away.

Oh, also!! I’m so glad that Marra got Bonedog back in the end. The sentence She would have traded victory in a heartbeat to have Bonedog whole again. really got to me.

[Anna]

Mareike wrote: "What can I say, I apparently really like grumpy old women as characters."

I love them! And this is why I periodically try to get everyone to read about Grandma Harken! There are two stories, both are free to read online.

Jackalope Wives: https://apex-magazine.com/short-ficti...
The Tomato Thief: https://apex-magazine.com/short-ficti...

Both are also collected in Jackalope Wives and Other Stories.

Also, if someone has managed to miss it, we have a whole thread where we (mostly I, have to admit) rave about T. Kingfisher books, so anyone who wants to read more, stop by :)

The Ursula Vernon/T. Kingfisher Reading and Admiration Society

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I loved the flip with Agnes, her being better a curses yet using it to help the group/world vs the too often written trope about being careful what (good thing) you wish for, most likely it will turn out bad in the end.

[Mareike]

I agree, Hank! That was a really well done.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I love demon chickens and bonedogs and dry humor sort of fellows named Fenris (can’t read this name and not think of Fenris from DRagon Age II - I am of the unpopular opinion that DA II was superior to the others.)

But also dustwife-she who will not be named and the very Wicked Godmother Agnes.

I don’t know that any of it felt much like horror to me- dark fantasy for sure but I think Kingfisher’s Hollow Places landed very firmly in Horror and this just feels like Dark Fantasy - I didn’t get the same sense of dread from this.

This reminds me of every fairy tale and none of them. (I think godmothers most remind me of Sleeping Beauty for some reason).

I think my only complaint is that the beginning was kind of slow and confusing? I almost wonder if the beginning chapters are the short story and the backstory is where she began developing it into a novel.

Either way- I loved this. Think it was great- hit all my sweet spots.

[Mareike]

The short story is quite different and told from the godmother’s POV: http://www.redwombatstudio.com/godmot...

[DivaDiane]

Arrgh! I just finished listening to the book and I loved it, but reading the first comment I realized that I missed more of the Goblin Market than I realized. The audio I was listening to through Scribd was corrupted in a couple of places. The first was obvious because it cut off mid-word and jumped ahead. While it was clear I’d missed a bit, it seemed like only a couple of sentences so I didn’t stress out about it. The 2nd time it jumped was in some ways less obvious (end of sentence) and other more obvious because what followed made no sense. But as things continued it was clear that I’d missed quite a bit more. I didn’t know what the moth or who the Saint was and who debris was. I didn’t even know that they’d gotten the moonbeam!

I’ll have to find the ebook and find that chapter to read it. So annoying that a large portion of such a pivotal section should just be missing!!

[Mareike]

They didn’t get the moonbeam in the goblin market. The dust-wife already had moonlight in a jar at her place and presumably just took some of it with here before they left.

If you want, I can send you the goblin market parts through dms.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

oh no! a nightmare scenario! I hope you're able to locate it

[Leonie]

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?

I enjoyed her growth as a character quite a lot. I loved that she loved Bonedog so much, and that Bonedog was such a 'real' dog.

2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?

Like others have said - ones involving fairy godmothers - Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty.

3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?

The real world problems were worse by far. The Prince - awful. Abusive husbands are dreadful things. I didn't find the supernatural elements particularly 'horror' if you like, except for the dead guy in the river maybe.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

I thought the beginning could have been better. It was a bit slow, and a little confusing. The rest was great, particularly the growth of togetherness and the slow reveal about Agnes.

5. Overall thoughts?

Loved it! Yet another great T. Kingfisher story.

[Bobby]

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?

I liked that the book was from Marra's perspective but I am not sure that it had much of a point other than good versus evil or having a problem and then solving it. She seemed like a fairly young woman who kept saying "Oh!" when exposed to unexpected realities which made her seem inexperienced.

2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?

I didn't really think of fairy tales so much as Dungeons and Dragons and the Discworld books.

They could be seen as a D&D party:

cleric - dust wife
wizard - agnes
figher - Fenris

But what about Marra - she is a "hero" but that isn't a class.

The two magical older women reminded me of the witches in Discworld like Granny Weatherwax. The Terry Pratchett books developed GW more but N&B's witches were similar in terms of being quirky.

3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?

I didn't really think the book was very scary except maybe the beginning and the confrontation with the thief wheel so I guess it is the supernatural for me.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

I liked the overall creativity of it. I enjoyed it once it settled down into the party meeting and travelling together.

One thing about the plot puzzled me. Marra seems powerfully magic but in the end she did not do much more than orchestrate the events. Kind of like Gandalf pulling all the pieces together in the battle against Sauron. But Gandalf was more confident and forceful whereas Marra seemed like a reluctant and unsure hero.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Reminder that we'll be discussing this in 1h40 min! And that the author is scheduled to join us 2 hours after that!

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Phillip]

I loved this book! Once I knew I got demon chickens teaming up with fairy godmothers, I knew I was in for a treat. It was either the best or second best book I've read this year (shout out to The Maleficent Seven). I think T. Kingfisher can rightfully claim her spot in my alltime favorite authors lounge.

[Phillip]

Ellen wrote: "I just recently rewatched Shrek and kept seeing and hearing Prince Vorling as Lord Farquaad in my head."

Farquaad for Vorling is perfect. I kept picturing Fenris as the character from Dragon Age 2.

[Carro]

This was a re-read for me and what struck me on the second pass was the friendships - starting with Marra and Sister Almoner and then with Agnes, the dustwife and Fenric and also liked the squabbling and jostling between Agnes and the dustwife. I thought the concept of dustwives looking after cemeteries was clever - and possibly original. The very name delineates the role - married to the cemetery and dust.
I can see parallels with T Kingfisher's other characters as she likes writing both older characters and people who are practical and get on with things. I could see similarities between Marra and the main character in Swordheart for having more ability than she realises, and lacking confidence in herself.
The fairy godmothers were superb.

Overall T Kingfisher really gets into the detail that makes up life but doesn't slow down the story.

Also loved Bonedog - and his being revived by tears - and both the chickens. Thought it was hysterical - and accurate - the comment from the dust wife to Agnes that she wanted to stop keeping Finder the chick in her bosom because when he was a full grown cockerel with spurs, she really didn't want him turning up in her bosom.
Incidentally keeping chicks warm in your bosom is an automatic thing when finding a cold chick - I've done it with chicken chicks and goslings. Pick up stranded cold ball of fluff and tuck down the neck of your T shirt. Human body temperature is a bit lower than chicken, so you do need to find a warmer source, but when they are colder than you it is a good emergency starting place.

[Lana]

I absolutely loved pretty much everything about this book. Completely agree that the real world horror was much scarier than the supernatural aspects of the novel. The prince was chilling. On the other hand, I found most of the supernatural horror elements amusing. I enjoyed the part when Marra got stuck on the thief wheel. The idea of a demon chicken made me cry laughing. I just really wanted to see it doing more. Was it a mischievous misunderstood demon, or a truly evil demon… I need to know more! I would happily read a whole book about that demon chicken.

[Will]

I didn't enjoy this book as much as I thought I would. Maybe I was something of a victim of my own hype - I loved the authors book of short stories Jackalope Wives and Other Stories that I read recently, and so had really high expectations of this one. All the same magic and atmosphere were there that I enjoyed in the short stories, but in the longer form of a novel it somehow didn't work for me.

The stakes were high, in a logical sense - Marra and the others had an impossible mission that they had to complete, and they were in plenty of life or death situations, but the stakes didn't *feel* high. Maybe it was due to the humourous style- the little bits of banter interjected into the drama - that made it all feel a bit more cozy and non-threatening. And so I sort of cruised through the book with some amusement and interest but without ever really being gripped.

I really loved some of the ideas, the characters, the quirky touches. And the author has a special way of capturing a moment in a beautiful way through just a short sentence or two of dialogue or description. So in many ways it was great. But overall, it was a fairly mild experience for me.

[E.D.]

Will wrote: I didn't enjoy this book as much as I thought I would.

I agree. I finally decided to give this story 4 stars although I did toy with the idea of 3, Having taken longer to read it than I would have expected with a book of this nature, I found it mildly entertaining and have given some consideration as to what I enjoyed and what it lacked for me.

I have come to the conclusion that It consists of a perfectly respectable adventurous quest to murder someone in order to prevent them from possibly killing someone else (made it a nice twist). However the quest feels like the middle section of a longer story. I found all of the characters interesting but apart from Marra, their development was too limited for me, even in a light-hearted story. We don't really know where they came from, and how they ended up where they did. In particular, I would have loved to have a completed history of Agnes, the kindly godmother with suggestions of a more powerful and evil past.

The ending leaves things open for the author to develop a more rounded development of this world. Although there is no hint that this is the intention.

Enjoyed the interview with Ursula Vernon by the way (thanks for this Allison).

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Glad you enjoyed it! I hope we get to do more of these in the future :)

I agree, it was a bit low stakes but I expect that from fairytales. I know going in the good guy will win, the question is more about the journey for me. If this was pure epic fantasy, I'd agree, not enough adventure, but for a tale of the weird and the cost of being born a woman in an oppressive state, it was EXACTLY the tone I needed to get through those thoughts!

[Jenni]

Sorry to resurrect this. I meant to write about this earlier when I finished it last month.

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?

It took a while to get into it. I don't usually like quest stories. I find them kind of boring and tedious. But I did end up liking this book.

2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?

It reminded me of Lord of the Rings with all the walking around. The part about the prince killing Marra's sister reminded me about was the story of Scheherazade since the kind in that story married and killed many of his brides.

3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?

I didn't really think it was scary, but the Goblin Market part was a pretty cool concept. And I guess the idea that at any point in time, the person I married could just decide to kill me was kind of frightening too.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

I felt that the killing of the king was really anti-climactic. We spent the whole story wondering how they were going to accomplish that and all they did was just walk up behind him and kill him. It was really un-satisfying.

5. Overall thoughts?

Other than being disappointed at the ending, I really did enjoy the book.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! You're not wrong, the actual killing wasn't a very big production. Did you like how his wife took over once he was killed?

[A]

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?
I loved it! I think I enjoyed her actual journey because it gave a chance for the author to showcase their excellent worldbuilding. This was the strongest part of the work for me, and between the lore of the dead, the cursed children, and the market, I was blown away!

2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?
None really, but it made me feel like this could have been a D&D game.

3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?
I didn't find anything scary, but I enjoyed the horror elements the most because it was another chance to showcase that worldbuilding.

4. What worked or didn't for you?
I had a bit of a difficult time connecting to Marra, but the amazing secondary characters made up for that. Similarly, the romance wasn't my favorite addition to the work, but at leaset it wasn't insta-love.

5. Overall thoughts?
Loved it - it was an excellent example of what a dark fantasy read should be.

[Kirsten]

1. What did you think of Marra's journey?

I loved it. The characters were great and it had a real world issue. (I want a bone dog!!)

2. What fairy tales or folk tales did you think of while reading this?

After the godmother talked about the perils of not inviting a godmother, I thought about Sleeping Beauty.

3. Were the supernatural horror elements or real world problems scarier to you?

The real world. (Except for maybe that poor woman being strangled by a toy.)

4. What worked or didn't for you?

I don't think anything didn't work for me. I absolutely loved this book. I read 3/4 of it in one day!

5. Overall thoughts?

I will definitely re-read this book one day. It was SOOO good.