15a. Circe, Part I

[Zippy]

Luis Bunuel maybe. Fun question, Lily!

[Zippy]

Maybe it's an uncomfortable subject, but I can't help feeling that alcohol plays a large role in this work, yet nobody is talking about it. I felt like Cyclops was saturated in ale, and frankly, Circe so far is like a drunken stupor. Do any of the literary analysts make references?

Or maybe Joyce and his characters aren't drinking as much as I think they're drinking. Thoughts?

[Thomas]

Zippy wrote: "Or maybe Joyce and his characters aren't drinking as much as I think they're drinking. Thoughts? "

Stephen is actually drinking more than we think. Here he accounts for his money:

PHILIP SOBER: Take a fool's advice. All is not well. Work it out with the buttend of a pencil, like a good young idiot. Three pounds twelve you got, two notes, one sovereign, two crowns, if youth but knew. Mooney's en ville, Mooney's sur mer, the Moira, Larchet's, Holles street hospital, Burke's. Eh? I am watching you.

So he has stopped at two more drinking establishments (the Moira House and Larchet's Hotel) that are outside the purview of the book. And aside from the little breakfast at the Tower, he probably hasn't eaten anything. It's a wonder he can stand up straight.

But aside from a glass of wine with his lunch and a glass at Burke's, Bloom has been quite temperate, especially by comparison. This is another aspect of Bloom that sets him apart from the crowd.

Stephen's alcohol abuse is an unpleasant detail, but Joyce obviously has no qualms about airing unpleasant details. Perhaps the question that Joyce is posing is why Stephen is drinking so much. What is he trying to escape?

[Kyle]

Lily wrote: "Thomas wrote: "...I imagine a towering mashup of Fellini, Jodorowsky, David Lynch, and the Marx Brothers. ..."

Given I know the works of none of those, at least one clue why I feel so clueless at ..."

For some reason, Circe put Heffalumps and Woozles into my head:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnADKg...

[Kyle]

Thomas wrote: "Zippy wrote: "Or maybe Joyce and his characters aren't drinking as much as I think they're drinking. Thoughts? "

Stephen is actually drinking more than we think. Here he accounts for his money:

P..."

My impression is that Stephen is trying to escape the same thing as most fairly recent college grads even today - the real world. Unless I'm misreading, he didn't seem particularly interseted in the offer to work at the newspaper & he is not happy at Deasy's school. He considers himself an artist but makes no living by his art...nor does he seem to create much art to speak of.

Another interesting point is that alchohol seems to have made him not necessarily more personable through the day, but certainly more loquacious. So there's probably a case to be made that he is trying to lubricate his social awkwardness away. Though, unfortunately, everyone still seems to see him as something of an amusing curiousity...

Of course, his mother's death is weighing on him - so that's a factor as well.

[Kyle]

Thomas wrote: "Zippy wrote: "Or maybe Joyce and his characters aren't drinking as much as I think they're drinking. Thoughts? "

Stephen is actually drinking more than we think. Here he accounts for his money:

P..."

In general, alcohol seems to loom over the entire novel. Dignam died from alchohol abuse, Nuncle Richie seems to have pedophilic tendencies when drinking, Bob Doran is a mess, Bloom is unable to get his ad sold to the newspaper because they are too interested in getting a pint, the Citizen gets boozed up and abuses his daughter, etc, etc...

[Lily]

Isn't alcohol abuse one of the stereotypical images of Ireland? I've never looked at how valid it is.

[Lily]

Kyle wrote: "For some reason, Circe put Heffalumps and Woozles into my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnAD... ..."

RFLOL!

(view spoiler)[I'll repeat, Kyle, my best contribution to this whole bloody Ulysses discussion has been inviting you to join it! (hide spoiler)] Thx! My sense of sanity just got an infusion of plasma.

[Thomas]

Patrice wrote: "First Ulysses sighting of the day (every day brings another one):

"All things are inconstant except the faith in the soul, which changes all things and fills their inconstancy with light"..."

This is from a letter that Joyce wrote in 1902, asking Lady Gregory for financial assistance. He was about to leave Ireland for medical school in Paris, and he needed money. This is the quote in context:

I want to achieve myself--little or great as I may be--for I know that there is no heresy or no philosophy which is so abhorrent to the church as a human being, and accordingly I am going to Paris. I intend to study medicine at the University of Paris supporting myself there by teaching English. I am going alone and friendless...I am leaving Dublin by the night boat on Monday 1st December and my train leaves Victoria Station for Newhaven the same night. I am not despondent however for I know that even if I fail to make my way such failure proves very little. I shall try myself against the powers of the world. All things are inconstant except the faith in the soul, which changes all things and fills their inconstancy with light. And though I seem to have been driven out of my country here as a misbeliever I have found no man yet with a faith like mine.

"Faith in the soul" in this case seems to be faith in himself and in his mission as an artist. It's not a religious faith exactly, and certainly not piety. He never would return to the Catholic Church.

But it's a good question to ask as we enter the last stretch of Ulysses -- is it a cynical book, or does it offer hope? Does Joyce succeed in filling "the inconstancy with light"?

[Lily]

Well, have read/listened to all of Circe -- parts repeatedly, just because of the ways I listen to books. But....not sure how I react to or feel about what Joyce provided.

[Thomas]

Kyle wrote: "My impression is that Stephen is trying to escape the same thing as most fairly recent college grads even today - the real world. Unless I'm misreading, he didn't seem particularly interseted in the offer to work at the newspaper & he is not happy at Deasy's school. He considers himself an artist but makes no living by his art...nor does he seem to create much art to speak of."

I guess we have to remember that this is one day in the life of this terribly unhappy young man, and it hasn't been a pleasant day for him. At present he is drunk and delerious in a brothel and has nowhere to lay his head. But I think you're right -- to some extent it is a matter of growing pains. More pains than growing at the moment.

[Thomas]

Lily wrote: "Isn't alcohol abuse one of the stereotypical images of Ireland? I've never looked at how valid it is."

"Good puzzle would be to cross Dublin without passing a pub."

http://www.independent.ie/entertainme...

[Linda]

Lily wrote: "Well, have read/listened to all of Circe -- parts repeatedly, just because of the ways I listen to books. But....not sure how I react to or feel about what Joyce provided."

My feelings exactly, Lily. I've also finished all of Circe and at the end I just sat there staring at the page, not sure what I was supposed to think or even how I felt. And it didn't help that I seemed to have even more trouble in the last half than the first half with trying to figure out what the heck was even happening.

[Lily]

Linda wrote: "My feelings exactly, Lily. I've also finished all of Circe and at the end I just sat there staring at the page, not sure what I was supposed to think or even how I felt. And it didn't help that I seemed to have even more trouble in the last half than the first half with trying to figure out what the heck was even happening."

Thx, Linda. I think it is reassuring to know one is not alone so reacting...at least maybe? ;-)

Perhaps the disorientation is intentional on Joyce's part?

[Linda]

Lily wrote: "Perhaps the disorientation is intentional on Joyce's part?"

If it is, then I'm shaking my fist at him. :)

[Lily]

Linda wrote: "Lily wrote: "Perhaps the disorientation is intentional on Joyce's part?"

If it is, then I'm shaking my fist at him. :)"

LOL!

[Laurel]

Yes, I think he is trying to disorient us, and I don't like it. "Pilgrim's Progress" will get us all straightened out again, but what will T. S. Eliot do?

[Lily]

Laurel wrote: "Yes, I think he is trying to disorient us, and I don't like it. "Pilgrim's Progress" will get us all straightened out again, but what will T. S. Eliot do?"

LOL! But I'm not sure we would have liked living in an ancient, medieval, Victorian, or any other period any better than in our own, nuclear, terrorist, post-global-wars, technological, climate-shifting, space probing,... age

[Kyle]

Thomas wrote: "I guess we have to remember that this is one day in the life of this terribly unhappy young man"

Certainly true. I don't mean to be uncharitable towards Stephen. I think one of the most power undercurrents of the book is his (and Bloom's) apparent inability to make normal social connections. Which is again underscored (so far) in this as episode Stephen sits disconsolately at the piano without really interacting, and Bloom doesn't really have much to say.

I think something that didn't come accross well in my post is the idea of a struggling young artist. Several of my friends in college were photography majors and they seemed similarly adrift after graduation. I felt it to a certain extent too, even though I wasn't a fine art major. When you spend all of your life preparing for the next step, then finally get there and realize there is no clearly defined next step, it can be unsettling. I feel like this is weighing on Stephen - that he knows he is not using his time wisely, but doesn't quite know what to do with it. Im reminded of the remark (I believe in Aeolus), when he was encouraged to write the next great novel, and instead winds up in the pub. Probably not too much of a stretch to think a young Joyce may have felt similar pressures.

[Thomas]

Linda wrote: " And it didn't help that I seemed to have even more trouble in the last half than the first half with trying to figure out what the heck was even happening.
"

I will be posting the summary for the second half tonight, so maybe that will help. This episode is chaotic, the subject matter disturbing, and the guideposts are tough to see.

I think Kathy's take on it @42 is right on the money:

I'm still reading this chapter, but it does seem to me to have a dreamlike quality in the sense that it strikes me as a review of everything that's happened so far to Bloom today. Earlier characters are showing up doing unexpected things, just as they do when our brains review and reshuffle things in our dreams. OTOH "revue" might be the more appropriate word. Let's not forget this is clearly theater.

[Kyle]

Thomas wrote: "is it a cynical book, or does it offer hope? Does Joyce succeed in filling "the inconstancy with light"?
..."

I think on the positive side we can say at this point that Bloom seems to be taking on some agency, even of its not quite the agency we had hoped to see from him. He didn't have to go chasing after Stephen - but he saw a problem and decided to do something about it rather than just daydream a solution. Perhaps we could say that this is just another way for him to avoid going home as well, but I prefer to see it as a step in the right direction :). Indeed it is literally a step in the right direction as well, since it is on his way home.

[Zippy]

Well, I'll just have to take your word for it, Kyle.

[Kyle]

Zippy wrote: "Well, I'll just have to take your word for it, Kyle."

You don't have to that at all :). There may well be argument to be made to the contrary, given what we know so far.

[Kathy]

Thomas wrote: "I think Kathy's take on it @42 is right on the money:."

Thanks, Thomas. :)
I have no idea yet *why* it's presented as theater, but maybe we can crack that nut in this second half...

[Kathy]

Thomas wrote: "But it's a good question to ask as we enter the last stretch of Ulysses -- is it a cynical book, or does it offer hope? Does Joyce succeed in filling "the inconstancy
with light"? "

This is a great question. Again, one I hope we can return to in the coming week(s). I read this quotation over several times, and it strikes me as something a very young man (or woman) would say. It does seem that "faith in the soul" refers to faith in one's *own* soul, and the idea that such a faith could actually fill all those inconstancies in the world with light is such a bold, even brazen, thing to imagine. It's hard to think of an older Joyce saying this. It's kind of a funny line--a mixed metaphor because the solution to "inconstancy" wouldn't seem to be "light," but he was writing it in a letter after all, not an edited, published work. In any case, I'm not getting the sense that any of the inconstancies of Dublin's masses are going to be filled with light anytime soon...

[Thomas]

Kathy wrote: "...and it strikes me as something a very young man (or woman) would say. "

He was 20 years old when he wrote that, so yes. It sounds very much like the grandiose statement he makes at the end of Portrait of the Artist, that he is going to forge in the smithy of his soul "the uncreated conscience" of his race. It's the sort of thing that makes me think about it until it makes some sense, though I have no idea if it is the sense that was intended.

[Kathy]

Grandiose is right!

[Zippy]

I am disappointed to discover that I'm only just now finished with Circe section 1. I thought I was much farther along. Is the rest of Circe like this? I'd like to retract my earlier statement about it being a "drunken stupor." This is the full-on delirious psychedelic metempsychosis trip of Heironymus Bosch.

Will I be sorry later if I don't pay attention now? Cuz I'm about to start skimming.

[Nicola]

Zippy wrote: "Maybe it's an uncomfortable subject, but I can't help feeling that alcohol plays a large role in this work, yet nobody is talking about it. I felt like Cyclops was saturated in ale, and frankly, Ci..."

Well I agree with you about Cyclops but Circe I found more of a drug induced hallucination.

[Nicola]

Zippy wrote: "I am disappointed to discover that I'm only just now finished with Circe section 1. I thought I was much farther along. Is the rest of Circe like this? I'd like to retract my earlier statement abou..."

Ah, you've decided that as well :-)

I would suggest listening to the Internet Archive if you have trouble reading it. I rather liked this chapter and I think it's due to the quality of the audio. There have been many parts of this book that I've felt I would probably have been at sea with if not for the clues in the actors voices.

[Lily]

Nicola wrote: "I would suggest listening to the Internet Archive if you have trouble reading it. I rather liked this chapter and I think it's due to the quality of the audio ..."

Nicola -- would you please repeat the link for the Archive you are using? I have been using my own set of CDs to listen, purchased several years ago now. They are good, but it sounds like I should try the online recordings. Rather than my paging back to figure out the link to what you may be using, please tell us again?

[Linda]

Zippy wrote: "Will I be sorry later if I don't pay attention now? Cuz I'm about to start skimming."

I read the entire thing, but from what I figured out what was actually happening, I effectively skimmed it.

[Nicola]

Lily wrote: "Nicola wrote: "I would suggest listening to the Internet Archive if you have trouble reading it. I rather liked this chapter and I think it's due to the quality of the audio ..."

Nicola -- would y..."

https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-A...

If you ever lose it just google 'Internet Archive Ulysses' and it will take you there.

You can listen online or download them.

[Lily]

Nicola wrote: "Lily wrote: "Nicola wrote: "I would suggest listening to the Internet Archive if you have trouble reading it. I rather liked this chapter and I think it's due to the quality of the audio ..."

Nico..."

Thanks, much, Nicola. Including the how-to-find-again tip!

[Lily]

"Nicola wrote: "I would suggest listening to the Internet Archive if you have trouble reading it...."

That audio really is excellent -- as several of you have been saying. I had been listening to my CDs because my CD players had been in more convenient locations than my audio speaker attached to my PC. But I listened to an hour of Circe this morning and really enjoyed it. Now I'll do more, hopefully able to sit and follow with the text.

[Nicola]

Brilliant isn't it? :-)

[Lily]

Nicola wrote: "Brilliant isn't it? :-)"

Yes!

(So, really, too, are the illustrations. But it takes so much time to go through them.)

[Tk]

I'm late to the discussion because I decided to read the entire chapter before participating. The summary in the first post is always tempting and very helpful and I wanted to read it all on my own first.

I didn't enjoy this chapter at all, although I recognize its importance in the work as a whole, especially in terms of Bloom's paternalistic feelings for SD. There was a sense of disorientation, loss (or gain?) of time, a feeling of coming and going from reality, weird sounds near and distant, etc.

I read The Secret Life of Walter Mitty in middle school and this chapter reminded me of that book, especially the section in which Bloom is making his stump speech. They have similar feeling of tuning out and coming back into the present, with the reader wondering what occurred while the character was off in fantasy.

[Zippy]

I had my first real Ulysses crisis in this chapter. I had almost decided to quit yesterday morning. I even asked a friend for counseling. He said to quit. I'm going to persevere for now in the hopes that it gets better. If I had quit, I would always wonder why it keeps ending up on reading lists.

[Linda]

Zippy wrote: " I even asked a friend for counseling. He said to quit."

To make it this far in the book and then quit doesn't make sense to me.

[Tk]

I even asked a friend for counseling. He said to quit. I'm going to persevere for now in the hope..."

Just take some salt tablets and keep going!

[Zippy]

Salt tablets. Vodka. A handful of antipsychotics.

[Sue]

Zippy, I am not sure if you are already listening to the audio of this book but it helps (at least for me). I was ready to toss in the towel at one point as well but I also thought "now or never" and learned of the audio version which I do find helpful/easier (it is done quite well). If you have not tried that, it might be an option. See: https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-A...
P.s. I have now finished "Ulysses".

[Thomas]

Sue wrote: "P.s. I have now finished "Ulysses". "

Congratulations! Sláinte!

[Chris]

Disorienting to say the least!!! I feel I could start having my own hallucinations! But for all that, one definitely gains more insight into Bloom's fears/insecurities and guilt feelings about issues in his current and past life. It just took me soooo long to get through it and let it marinate. And AH...the potato...becomes a symbol or character in it's own right.

[Hilary]

I haven't even started this section and I'm already heavy-limbed at the thought. What you say is true, Linda, but I certainly have made a rod for my back. You've finished, Sue! You're one lucky lady! I can't wait to see the back of it at this point and I'm still not half-way through! La di da ... Onward and upward (downward?) is the cry ...

[Theresa]

My experience of this episode was that it was tiring to read and I grew weary of not knowing what was going on. After reading, I came here to read Thomas' summary and the comments of the group members. I have been finding the conversation here intriguing - so many different interpretations! I feel as if Ulyssses is a lovely piece of chameleon art that can mean whatever the open minded/open hearted reader wants it to mean. No one interpretation needs to be wholly right or wrong. We bring our own experiences to our interpretations.

As for me, I have a fairly unromantic view of this episode: Bloom is just tired. Alcohol (though he doesn't drink much) affects his brain (that's why he doesn't drink much) in ways not always pleasant. Seriously, he is just tired. It has been a long day, frustrating. His monkey mind has turned off and his thinking is more visual and less orderly than it was earlier in the day. I think Joyce is just trying to show us how the mind works across a full day. We think differently at different times and under different circumstances but we are not always aware of that. If you've ever tried to practice meditation, and you watch your mind trying to quiet itself down, the process is not so different from what Joyce describes here. You may stop 'talking' in your mind but memories flash in and fade out (if you let them fade out). Similar experiences happen for me when I am very tired (say from driving for a full day on the highway going south, it is boring and I get more tired than I believe myself to be) thoughts and feelings and memories just come and go unbidden.

I guess that is not a very sophisticated interpretation of what is going on here, but it works for me.

Purging? I did consider Susan's suggestion of purging guilt, not sure if I agree. I suppose daydreaming is another way of "processing" experience but to really process an experience I think as humans we have to make order out of it. Of course before we can do that we have to let the experiences surface so maybe in the next section that will happen.

[Suzann]

Theresa wrote: "I suppose daydreaming is another way of "processing" experience but to really process an experience I think as humans we have to make order out of it. Of course before we can do that we have to let the experiences surface so maybe in the next section that will happen. ..."

The concept of processing experience as a routine activity makes sense to me. Experience not rising to the level of fetish, obsession, neurosis still undergoes an ordering either in unconscious dreams or conscious reflection. "Ordering" makes more sense to me than the more religious term purging. I'll be curious how you experience Bloom's surfacing memory.

[Hilary]

Thanks so much for the audio link, Sue. This may be the crutch I need to see me through! :)

[Sue]

Yes, Hilary…it made a big difference for me! So use this "crutch" and you will make it through! (better than throwing in the ole towel, me thinks! (especially being this far along))