The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2023 Booker Prize speculation
I don't think it's nonsense. I was thinking the same thing after watching Eric Karl Anderson's prediction video. We know from experience that we are going to be surprised by the longlist, or at least we are very likely to be surprised. We also know that some favorites won't be on it, while others will. So the fact that there is a core group of books coming up over and over just increases the surprise factor come August 1st.
That's a great point. I was thinking some of the booktubers were making "safer" picks this year, but it may be that the conversation is cohering around Doug's list.I've also noticed more bookstagrammers seem to be aware of this group, or at least the Listopia.
I also think that this year was a particularly strong one for fiction
I've only read 25 on the Listopia and 7-8 of those are books that I added but probably won't be considered by the judges.So this year will be a surprise to me, or new books, even if they pick the heavily tipped books. And hoping there are some surprises as a lot of the heavily tipped books don't appeal at all.
I feel like there are more ‘big names’ than usual (previously shortlisted authors, winners of other prizes, etc) which makes the field feel crowded. There’s definitely lots of awareness of the Listopia, although I did kind of make it my mission not to be influenced by that. Just spent quite a bit of time browsing through hardback sections in local bookshops. Think for my video I ended up with 3 books not on the Listopia (The Way the Day Breaks, Rose and the Burma Sky, and I *think* Grimmish wasn’t on there when I posted).
In any case, an exciting time!
Ben wrote: "I feel like there are more ‘big names’ than usual (previously shortlisted authors, winners of other prizes, etc) which makes the field feel crowded. There’s definitely lots of awareness of the Li..."
The Way the Day Breaks is on there (although again one I added and I may have added it recently)
Adding it here as we do not have a separate thread and anyway all of the shortlisted books are Booker Prize eligible (and I have seen all of them discussed as contenders) The second Waterstones Debut Fiction Prize. Shortlist was published yesterday.
The shortlist has
“In Memoriam” by Alice Winn
“Kala” by Colin Walsh
“Wandering Souls” by Cecile Pin
“Fire Rush” by Jacqueline Crooks
“Close to Home” by Michael Magee
“Chain Gang All Stars” by Nana Kwame Adiei-Brenyah
So two from this year’s Women’s Prize longlist and two from this year’s Observer Debut Novel list.
I have read all but Kala.
With the Desmond Elliott Prize on hiatus and the Costa (which had a debut category) stopped - this prize definitely fills a void in the book award category in the UK. And while the prize money is small at only £5000 the exposure in Waterstones stores (which in many areas of the UK are the only bookstores, and which are also enjoying a big uptick in sales and reputation, plus also now own Foyles and Blackwell’s) is very significant.
As a reminder the first year of the prize was won by “Lessons in Chemistry” from a shortlist which included “Lessons in Chemistry”, “Trespasses”, “Memphis”, “How High We Go in The Dark and “Vagabonds”.
It’s a strong list! I haven’t read Kala or Close to Home, but very interested in the former.One slight correction, GY: last year’s prize was won by Tess Gunty’s The Rabbit Hutch.
You are right. I had meant to correct that - you will see I mention lessons in Chemistry as on the shortlist also - but posted before I did it.
I've read Kala. I thought the writing is fantastic, lyrical and powerful, but it's a very plot-heavy piece of crime fiction at heart telling a story we've seen so many times before.
I'm very impressed with the Waterstones debut fiction prize shortlist. I've read them all except for Kala and plan on reading that one quite soon. Hoping to see In Memoriam on many more prize lists going forward.
I just read In Memoriam - have to say I was not very whelmed
Loving the Waterstones' shortlist as well - although I thought Wandering Souls was dismal, Fire Rush and Chain-Gang All Stars are two of my favourite books of 2023 so far. I'm about to read In Memoriam.
Feels odd that for a prize that allows translations there are no translations. For the 2nd year running.Although that does make the criteria odd - is it
- a translation of a debut novel? But what if it's the translation of the debut novel of someone who is already famous - that feels odd.
- a debut in English translation for that author? But that feels odd if the book wasn't their debut originally.
- or a translation by a debut translator, like the TA First Translation Prize?
So perhaps ideally to be eligible it needs to be the translation by a debut translator of a debut novel by an author who has not yet written any subsequent novels. In which case it's not surprising none make the list!
FWIW here are my reviews of the ones I have readWandering Souls – 4*
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Chain Gang All Stars – 4*
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Fire Rush – 4*
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
In Memoriam – 3*
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Close to Home – 3*
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Lauren Groff's latest, The Vaster Wilds, looks more Bookery than some of her previous books. We haven't talked about Vaster Wilds much here. I remember there being mixed reviews here of her last book, Matrix.
I just finished it. About 3.5 stars for me. One question I did not mention in my review is if it will be entered given it’s relatively late publication date.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I just read In Memoriam - have to say I was not very whelmed"LOL
I'm not used to the extra week before the longlist announcement - usually the excitement is building right now.To tie in a conversation from instagram, I'm intrigued by the question of which book Fleet will enter. Two possibilities are The North Shore and Crook Manifesto. They are very different books. The North Shore might be more of a traditional Bookery book, but I can see the logic for submitting the Whitehead too.
I keep getting the north shore confused with north woods
Or do you mean Birnam Woods, Yahaira? I ordered North Shore after reading Gumble’s review earlier.
I keep thinking people are talking about this when they are talking about the north shorehttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...
Yahaira wrote: "I keep thinking people are talking about this when they are talking about the north shorehttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7..."
If I had to guess, North Woods looks like one of those books that resonates with an American audience but not with UK readers. But who knows, stranger things have happened with the Booker!
Quick question--is there a minimum length for Booker nominees? I just finished For Thy Great Pain Have Mercy on My Little Pain and absolutely loved it. Now that I think about it, there must not be, as Small Things Like These (Keegan) was even shorter. But then, what happened with Assembly? Maybe that one was just too short?
No. Books have to be “long form” and “substantial” - the judges last year took a very different and welcome stance on that to some (but not all) previous years - Treacle Walker was I think possibly even shorter in word count than Keegan. The WP does have a strict word count > 30,000 words
I also just read For Thy Great Pain Have Mercy on My Little Pain and also loved it - not least as half of it is set in my birthplace. I just finished I, Julian - also out this year and eligible - you might want to check that out if you find Julian an interesting character. It’s more directly mystical /religious (and has a moving reason why it was written) but I found Pain a more interesting treatment
Thanks for the Insta reference David. For anyone interested I have on my Bookstagram I have started a series of completely speculative posts about why some books may or might not make the longlist.
I have done Demon Copperhead, Hungry Ghosts, Cuddy, The Passenger, Birnam Wood, The North Shore and House if Doors so far.
Later today I should be posting on Corey Fah Does Social Media, In Ascension and This Other Eden.
Another 10 or so to follow once I have written them (just sourcing suitable GR photos)
Would welcome comments under the posts - you will definitely recognise some Mookse members there
https://www.instagram.com/gygoldenrev...
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "No. Books have to be “long form” and “substantial” - the judges last year took a very different and welcome stance on that to some (but not all) previous years - Treacle Walker was I think possibly..."Thank you for this. I have been somewhat perplexed about the length issue. I do think that an argument can be made that "substantial" can be determined without regard to length. Certainly in the case of Treacle Walker, Assembly, and For Thy Great Pain.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I also just read For Thy Great Pain Have Mercy on My Little Pain and also loved it - not least as half of it is set in my birthplace. I just finished I, Julian - also out this year and eligible -..."
Ooh yes, I am on a Julian track now, so will definitely take a look. Thank you for the recommendation.
Agreed. Substance and length are unrelated. Indeed inversely correlated in many cases. Really if an author says it's a novel, it's a novel and the judges can form their own view of its merits. And even if it's a collection of short stories - which to be is what the rules are more trying to prevent - then again up to the author/publisher to argue that, and the judges to decide if, they cohere to a single work.
The Women's Prize restriction is one of the issues I have with that prize which means it's one I sit out.
I'm confused about the new Coetzee. it looks like there are two versions of The Pole, one a single novel coming out in September and one a short story collection due in October.so is the September version eligible?
It seems that the UK edition will be published by Harvill Secker on October 19, and they have chosen to publish that novella and five other short stories in one book so I would say that makes it doubly ineligible.The September one is the US edition.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "No. Books have to be “long form” and “substantial” - the judges last year took a very different and welcome stance on that to some (but not all) previous years - Treacle Walker was I think possibly..."Glad you enjoyed it GY.
I think For Thy great Pain.... is a little gem and probably quite underrated in terms of prizes. I'd love to see it on the longlist but doubt it will have a chance if it has even been submitted.
I'm currently 100 or so pages into Chain Gang All Stars and have to admit I'm not feeling much love for it. Hope it gets better but really can't understand the hype around it.
I Found Chain Gang All Stars just okay. I was never truly hooked or dying to know what was going to happen. It’s quite ambitious and the scope is large, I appreciate what it’s trying to do but it wasn’t too memorable.
I'd previously read Adjei-Brenyah's collection Friday Black, and I thought some of the stories in it were absolutely brilliant. His style is very much social commentary, dressed in science fiction and horror, very akin to The Twilight Zone.In my experience with this style of writing, I feel these stories so rarely translate well to the extended form. The same could easily be said, in my opinion, of Chain-Gang All-Stars. It could've been a fine short story, but I agree that as a novel, it wasn't overly memorable.
David wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "I keep thinking people are talking about this when they are talking about the north shorehttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7..."
If I had to guess, [book:North ..."
I love New England and this sounds like my kind of comfort read,
I am waiting to see if I can get an ARC of the UK edition
WndyJW wrote: "David wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "I keep thinking people are talking about this when they are talking about the north shorehttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7..."
If I had to guess..."
My vision of New England is forever tied to the Gilmore Girls, so can see why this might be a comfort read.
This may have already been shared elsewhere, but I receive a weekly email from The Guardian called "Bookmarks" which is a set of links to articles that have come out over the week that are book related. I suspect many of you get this as well. The weekly roundup always includes a piece "from the archive," and I could not help noticing that this week's piece was a brilliant essay by Hilary Mantel from 2009 about history in fiction. It seemed too much of a coincidence to rerun that particular piece as we approach one week until the longlist is revealed and as Shapiro's views on historical fiction have been much discussed. Here is a link to the essay. It's wonderful:https://www.theguardian.com/books/200...
I look forward to every Sunday morning at 8:07am when Bookmarks is emailed out. Always make sure I have a coffee in hand.
Jo wrote: "I look forward to every Sunday morning at 8:07am when Bookmarks is emailed out. Always make sure I have a coffee in hand."Kindred spirits, that's what we are Jo!
Cindy wrote: "Jo wrote: "I look forward to every Sunday morning at 8:07am when Bookmarks is emailed out. Always make sure I have a coffee in hand."Kindred spirits, that's what we are Jo!"
Very much so :)
I have enjoyed catching up on the discussion here today. It has been a busy few weeks (months) as I get married on Thursday and then away on a honeymoon cruise during the Booker Longlist announcement - bad timing! :) But before all that I will be sharing my prediction list in the hopes I predict more than last year.
Also - Kala. Really enjoyed it but not sure it's Bookery enough. But who knows right?! If Maggie Shipstead's novel made it...
Jo wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Jo wrote: "I look forward to every Sunday morning at 8:07am when Bookmarks is emailed out. Always make sure I have a coffee in hand."Kindred spirits, that's what we are Jo!"
Very m..."
Such a Brillant news! Congratulations Jo!
How wonderful Jo! Congratulations!!!!
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The Mookse and the Gripes
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One thing I would say though is that I feel there is increasingly a rather circular consensus around the contenders - lots of Booktubers and Bookstagramers now use Doug’s list to see not just what is eligible (which is a good thing - I am seeing lots less lists featuring several ineligible books) but to say what books are being heavily tipped (which they then tip in turn) and I wonder if that creates an impression of a group of strong contenders?
Probably nonsense but it really struck me more than ever this year