1. Along the way

[Mark]

Pat wrote: "the book is so highly recommended by Pope Francis."

Perhaps its theological virtues exceed its literary ones.

[Manuel]

Mark, you have a perfect right not to like this (or any other) book. You also have a perfect right to stop reading it at any point.

But when you write this: Perhaps its theological virtues exceed its literary ones I think you are saying too much. Asserting that a work has no literary virtues (or has very little) when it is the second or third most acclaimed Italian literary work of all time is, at least, reckless. You are implying that all those who have considered it a great work in the last two centuries (which includes a few members of this club who have enjoyed it) are mistaken, or out of their depths as critics.

I have the impression that part of the problem is that you were expecting this work to be a psychological twentieth-century novel, and when you found it is not, you lost interest.

[Mark]

Manuel wrote: "Mark, you have a perfect right not to like this (or any other) book. You also have a perfect right to stop reading it at any point.

But when you write this: Perhaps its theological virtues exceed..."

Books are valued for many different reasons. In your review, the points you mention are its portrayal of historical events and Cardinal admonishing Don Abbondio. You say nothing about such literary virtues as vivid characterization or engaging storyline. Your review seems to accord my view that it is primarily a didactic work.

As to it being the third greatest work of Italian literature, I can form no opinion, other than to point out that the third greatest work of English painting would not crack the top 1000 of Italian painting. (And the same for wine making, cooking, and opera.)

You are correct to observe, though, that I have my particular standards for judging literature. It's not that I prefer the 20th century psychological novel. Indeed, I find a lot of that tedious. Give me Dickens or Austen every time. But look at the quality of characterization in Dickens or Austen, how particular each character is, and how we know them from their actions and their speech. There is nothing remotely of that character or quality in this book.

It may have other virtues that I am blind to. It is not the only widely-admired book that leaves me cold. (Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale is another, to choose a more recent example.) Perhaps my suspicion that it is valued for it theological positions is incorrect, though what I have read about it all seems to focus on either its historical reporting or its theological statements. But still, yes, that is speculation on my part. All I can really say for sure is that it is not my cup of tea.

[Manuel]

Mark wrote: "As to it being the third greatest work of Italian literature, I can form no opinion, other than to point out that the third greatest work of English painting would not crack the top 1000 of Italian painting."

Maybe you are right. But I think the first greatest work of Italian literature (Dante's Divine Comedy) does crack the top of English literature. At least, that's my opinion.

[Mark]

Manuel wrote: "But I think the first greatest work of Italian literature (Dante's Divine Comedy) does crack the top of English literature. "

Oh, certainly, Dante is up there with the greats, without question.

[Fonch]

I like really much Torquato Tasso and "Delivered Jerusalem" and i would like to read the Ludovic Ariosto novel. I do not quote the title in english because i do not know in Spain we call "Orlando furioso". I would like to read soon.

[Manuel]

Fonch wrote: "I like really much Torquato Tasso and "Delivered Jerusalem" and i would like to read the Ludovic Ariosto novel. I do not quote the title in english because i do not know in Spain we call "Orlando furioso"."

"Orlando furioso" is the Spanish and the Italian title of the poem (it's not a novel). I would consider this poem the second greatest work in Italian literature, although it has a problem: to understand it, one must start by reading Mateo Boiardo's "Orlando Innamorato", a much lower-level literary work. When Boiardo died and left his work unfinished, Ariosto continued at the exact point he had left it, without any explanation.

[Fonch]

I know i was going to say that it is a sequel of the Boiardo's book but it is really difficult to get it. I knew it for the Literary italian guide Garzanti. A bit marxist but it is one of the few books that i have. It is not a bad book in spite of all.

[Fonch]

I have found two spanish editions of the Boiardo's novel besides i have passed to the Professor but none of the editions inspire me any confidence.

[John]

I finished this last weekend and have to say that by the end I very much enjoyed it, though at times it was a slog. I will say that Manzoni rewards one's diligence with occasional jewels. I'll put the rest of this behind spoiler tags, in case there are others still reading.

(view spoiler)[In talking about Federigo Borromeo's life at college and the efforts of his superiors to give him the honors they felt his noble status deserved, on p402 of the Penguin edition, he says:

"Perhaps they thought that this policy would in the long run gain them his good will; perhaps they were moved by the servile baseness which draws pride and pleasure from the glory of others. Perhaps they were that prudent sort who are equally alarmed by virtues and vices, and always preach the doctrine that perfection lies in the golden mean; they fix the golden mean at the point which they themselves happen to have reached, and settle down there very comfortably."

I loved this observation.

I also noted, but failed to mark, several occasions on which Manzoni reflects a decent understanding of basic economics, which puts him ahead of most writers I've read, as well as most politicians (who largely seem to think economic ignorance to be career enhancing) and many churchmen (who often sadly don't seem to think that ignorance should limit their public pronouncements). One example that comes immediately to mind is the government imposition of price controls on bread in Milan in response to the famine. Manzoni noted, correctly, that this had the effect of limiting the flow of grain into Milan from neighboring areas because merchants couldn't make enough money to cover their costs. This episode was noted by Thomas Sowell (possibly America's greatest living economist and philosopher) in his Basic Economics. (hide spoiler)]

[Asunción]

I have finished. This is my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Manuel]

John wrote: "One example that comes immediately to mind is the government imposition of price controls on bread in Milan in response to the famine. Manzoni noted, correctly, that this had the effect of limiting the flow of grain into Milan from neighboring areas because merchants couldn't make enough money to cover their costs."

Since then, politicians haven't learned. The socialist-communist government in Spain is now speaking of imposing price controls to several basic products (bread among others) to fight inflation.

[Fonch]

Itbis true the minister Yolanda dixit 😉.