Debates discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
The Archives
>
Roe v. Wade
message 201:
by
[deleted user]
(new)
Jun 27, 2022 07:48PM
What other options? The only one I can think of is adoption.
reply
|
flag
I think that life itself begins at birth but fetuses that are like 24 + weeks in are surviving things. And yes I meant that if at 8 months you decided you don’t want a baby anymore then you should use the option of adoption.
I'm being called and I've gotta go now. I think one of the studies was called Reconsidering Fetal Pain, and it was carried out by a pro-life and a pro-choice researcher who "came together to jointly address the updated evidence for fetal pain. While they drew different moral implications of fetal pain existing in an earlier gestational age, they were able to agree that fetal pain does exist in in a gestational window of 12-24 weeks."Here are a few I found. I only got to skim through them since I'm short on time, so I'm not sure if they're the ones I read about before.
https://acpeds.org/position-statement...
https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/1/3?fb...
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...
Okay, I really have to go now or I'll get scolded. 😄 Bye!
You didn’t mention your thoughts on the one child policy earlier. They “aborted” babies at ANY point, up to birth. I watched a documentary and it was so sad! They showed pictures of dead babies in dumpsters.
I have heard a little about the child policy not much but based on what I’ve heard it was horrible and gross. I didn’t know it had anything to do with abortion I thought they just killed children after birth. But it sounds interesting In like a gross horrible way so I’m am going to look into it more.
No, children after birth they sent to orphanages. Check out the One Child Nation documentary. It’s very informative. You might need subtitles though.
This is really becoming a great debate, and I really enjoy seeing both sides! :)But I'm also here to jump in with my two cents on China's one child policy. While I'm not entirely sure if I was part of this generation, I do know this:
・ I was put up for adoption as a baby (and later adopted as an infant).
・ Orphanages have absolutely crappy conditions. Like, everything is made of or has lead in it, so teething babies are chewing on the lead filled cribs. Also, babies were put on a strict bathroom schedule (so split pants and using the bathroom only when a whistle is blown.
・ Babies are often just "found," given up by their birth parents, and are taken to the orphanage, exchanging one bad circumstance for another.
・ Babies and children are eventually sent to foster families who don't care about the kids themselves. All they care about are the checks they receive from the government for housing the kids.
・ By the age of ~16 (I think), if a child is not adopted, they are then kicked out of the system to fend for themselves. Who knows what happens to them. It can be speculated that they either turn to prostitution or end up dying on the streets. These kids are slumming it out on crowded streets fending for themselves for as long as possible.
I don't think many would disagree with me, but I think this is simply atrocious! And perhaps it's just my experience here that makes me lean toward pro–life, although I COMPLETELY understand many of the pro–choice arguments.
That’s horrible! In America I believe the age they get kicked out of the system is 18, but quite a few foster families actually care about the kids. I’ve only heard of a couple abusive homes in the entire time my family did foster care. But the system itself is really messed up. The kids are tossed around not based on what’s best for them but off of if the family members want the kids. We came close to adopting one kid, but the family changed their mind. That was heartbreaking, let me tell you. And three sisters that I became great friends with were in an abusive home for several months before getting out.
It's definitely ugly, both in China and in America. But at least, I feel, that America is a bit better. :)
I've heard of many terrible stories of adoption centers. But I also know that there are a lot of good ones, too. Like, I just heard about this story of a doctor and his wife in Japan who felt a burden for unwanted babies, so they opened up their own house and started a center for unwanted babies. They love kids, and they take care of each baby that is dropped off at their house like their own children, and they work hard to find good, loving families for each of them. It's one of the first centers of its kind in the area, and I give people like them so much credit for being so willing to sacrifice so much to provide these beautiful babies with a good life.
Mod
A preborn baby is any baby that's still in the womb. Could be at 20-weeks, could be at full-term. It doesn't really matter because they're all babies.
message 213:
by
Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues
(last edited Jun 29, 2022 01:46PM)
(new)
Mod
Hey Abby! So you said that at 12-weeks, the baby is only a potential baby and not an actual baby but that at maybe 24-weeks, it's a baby and abortions shouldn't really be done to kill it. Can you find any peer-reviewed papers that state that human life begins at viability? Just one would be nice because I haven't found any at all. On the other hand, I do have a list of 25 scientific papers (http://thefetalposition.com/conception/) that state in no uncertain terms that human life begins at conception. This means that scientists admit that every abortion kills a human being. What do you think?
Mod
This is 1000% what I want to be doing later on in life.
message 215:
by
Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues
(last edited Jun 29, 2022 02:53PM)
(new)
Mod
But I'm also here to jump in with my two cents on China's one child policy. While I'm not entirely sure if I was pa..."
Ugh, the orphanage situations sound awful! Who are the people running them?! The government or organizations or someone else? I think this is something that both sides could totally come together on to work together. You know, instead of pro-choicers using the situation to say that, well, maybe those orphans should've just been aborted or pro-lifers only saying that the orphans deserve life but not thinking more past that. Some individuals from each side might agree, but I'm pretty certain no collaboration would ever happen between any larger abortion/anti-abortion organizations and advocacy groups.
Ok so yes life is beginning at conception that is when it is being created. But in the early stages of pregnancy when most abortions happen the aborted fetus looks like a blood clot and there is no way I can Believe that that looks like it could be alive. I also wanted to point out that just because abortions are ilegal they are still going to happen. Just unsafely which makes the person getting the abortion at a higher for complications resulting in death.
I also want to say that I’m not against fetuses having rights I just don’t think they should have a right that no one else has. The right to use someones body with out their consent.
Mod
The fetus can have the right to exist if the person whose body its using consents to having their body used.
Mod
What do you mean "early stages of pregnancy when most abortions happen"? The CDC states that "92.7% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation". This is a 13-week ultrasound image:
And in a simulation:
Even an 8-week foetus looks like a baby and not a "blood clot":
Some ultrasound images are clear than others, but fetal development is very well-established now because of miscarriages and ultrasound imagery. Can you really look at the images and still say that it should be okay for an abortion to suction them to pieces because it should be a woman's "choice"? There is no right reason to kill an infant, and it should be exactly the same with preborn babies.
Mod
Did any fetus ever consent to be murdered in an abortion? Because that's what every abortion does. Women have a 0.0174% chance of dying because of a pregnancy while babies targeted for abortion have a 97% change of dying. Tell me how that's fair.
You can’t use someone’s body with out their consent. If someone who wasn’t in a womb did this they would be arrested and charged. or at least they should be. And the chance of women dying goes up a lot when it happens unprofessionally.
Mod
Yes, unless the statistic means failed abortions and defines that as if an arm or a leg were still left in the uterus or something like that... I know sometimes a pill fails so they have to go and suction the contents out. There have also been people who have survived abortion attempts (examples: https://twitter.com/KristinForLife/st...).
Mod
99% of women who abort consented to intercourse. Only 1% of abortions happen because of rape or incest. This means that the baby is dying because of an irresponsible choice she made, knowing perfectly well that she might become pregnant. Saying that consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy is like saying consent to eating junk food isn't consent to gaining weight. It makes absolutely no sense. A baby is only there because sexual intercourse happened. The baby didn't force herself into the mother; it was the mother's actions that put the baby there in the first place.
You can consent to sex and not pregnancy. Just because you want to have sex which is a human need doesn’t mean you consent to put your body through Pregnancy. You can do everything right to prevent pregnancy like using contraceptives and still get pregnant. Weight gain isn’t something you consent to.
Mod
But you admit that people know perfectly well they could get pregnancy if they have sex. I mean, this is 7th grade sex ed stuff here. Abstinence is the only way to truly prevent a pregnancy.
message 226:
by
Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues
(last edited Jun 29, 2022 04:14PM)
(new)
Mod
I think the biggest disagreement here is what counts as human life and therefore if it really matters whether this clump of cells/human life deserves to live. Abby when would you consider the beginning of life for a human being?
Mod
She said birth, but she kinda ignored my questions about fetal development. She said that preborns just look like blood clots early in pregnancy (I assume she just means the blastocyst) but ignored ultrasound imagery of babies at the stage in which abortions are most common
Mod
@ luna every one has internalized misogyny and it doesn’t depend on your gender. The main reason people say that if your pro - life you are just against women is because most of these people are pro guns and pro death penalty which makes it seem like you only care about the life when it is in someone’s womb.
Abortion is not punishing a fetus. Forcing people to keep fetuses they don’t want is punishing the pregnant person and the future baby.
For the result of their actions argument do you think it would be fair is a sex worker was kidnapped and used for their body repeatedly for days, weeks, months, years with out their consent ?
You can acknowledge that sex is the way to create life but still have sex not wanting or being in the right conditions to have a child.
Mod
The only reason pro-choice leaders deny that human life begins at conception is because then people would actually start using their heads and be like, "Well, if human life begins at conception, then wouldn't that mean that abortion kills human lives?" Dehumanizing is their first step, just like it was for slave-owners and for Hitler. You can't justify killing an entire population of humans unless you say they're not actually humans.
And yep, the modern pro-life movement is basically run by women! 💪 https://twitter.com/KristanHawkins/st...
Mod
The main reason people say that if your pro - life you are just against women is because most of these people are ..."
If you aren't in the right condition to have a child, then don't have sex! Literally! It's not like we're base animals too weak to pull ourselves together and have some self control.
Forcing people to keep fetuses they don’t want is punishing the pregnant person and the future baby.
Is forcing parents to keep born children they don't want punishing the parents and the infant, too? That's like saying, "Might as well kill the infant now because it might have a horrible life in the future! You can't force parents to stay parents!" That's your logic to justify abortion. So why can't it apply to infants? What is the difference between a preborn baby a few months before birth and a preborn baby a few months after that makes the former undeserving of life and the latter deserving of it?
First life can begin at conception but people still need to consent to pregnancy. Also the pro choice group is also mainly women who just want to decide what happens with their bodies.
Your don’t have sex comment, sex isn’t purely to procreate. There are options for if you are in these situations and want out why not utilize them.
A fetus isn’t a breathing living thing it is using someone’s body and that person can choose to not consent to their body being used. If people who are already parents and agreed to go through with the pregnancy and don’t want the child they put up for adoption.
Mod
I’m fine with abortion until the 23 rd ish week of pregnancy. Before that the pregnant person should get to choose what happens with their body and after that point the fetus has a decent chance of serving so if the person doesn’t want the child they can give it up for adoption.
Since fetuses are babies you should be able to take out life insurance for the right? And if a pregnant person is assaulted it should be considered child abuse?
Mod
But can you get life insurance for a fetus? Because if it is a person then you should right? And what if the pregnant person doesn’t have a miscarriage after being assaulted? If a fetus is a person shouldn’t it be considered child abuse if a pregnant person is assaulted?
Mod
message 240:
by
Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues
(last edited Jul 05, 2022 03:21PM)
(new)
Mod
I mean, if someone kills a pregnant lady and her baby dies, too, the murderer is charged with double homicide.
Mod
It basically is child abuse if a pregnant person is assaulted.
Well if you assault someone you should get punished. But if you cause someone to loose their future child when you had no right to do so because it doesn’t affect your body then yea it is like murder. And life beings at conception because that is when the life is being created but it is not alive at conception.
Mod
But if a baby is not alive in the womb, why is it "like" murder? If someone assaults a pregnant person.
I mean you could just not assault people. But if you are not affected by the pregnancy and your body isn’t being used you should have no say over what happens in that pregnancy.
Mod
I think your missing the point. How can you murder something that is not alive? How can you murder a clump of cells?
It is considered murder because it easier and you are taking away a Possible life that you should have no say over because it isn’t using your body.
Mod
It is using your body. No birthed person has the right to use someone’s body without consent so a fetus should either.
But a baby was out there as a result of the woman’s actions, making it her choice.
No if she doesn’t what to have a fetus in it is her Choice to remove it if she wants because her body is being used. How would you feel if your body was being used for 9 months?
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
