Roe v. Wade

[[deleted user]]

I mean adoption is always an option should a woman not want to keep her kid.

[Abby]

Can we in this discussion try to use more inclusive language such as pregnant person, birther, birth giver, etc instead of just mother?

[Abby]

The pregnant person shouldn’t be forced to waste or loose 9 months of their lives

[Austin, Assistant Mod]

Abby wrote: "Can we in this discussion try to use more inclusive language such as pregnant person, birther, birth giver, etc instead of just mother?"

haha sounds sounds like you are talking about animals. Birther, breeder, brood maker.

[Abby]

Well not all pregnant people are women so they should be included in the discussion as well.

[Austin, Assistant Mod]

Abby wrote: "Well not all pregnant people are women so they should be included in the discussion as well."

I'm not trying to be mean but that sounds silly.

[Abby]

Biological Females can have children There is no such thing as a biological woman

[Austin, Assistant Mod]

Abby wrote: "Biological Females can have children There is no such thing as a biological woman"

lol wut? what are you then?

[Abby]

There are transgender people non binary people and a lot more to the gender spectrum than just man and woman

[[deleted user]]

Then how many genders are there?

[Abby]

Sex and gender are different

[Abby]

A couple websites I have found say there are 72 genders

[[deleted user]]

Hahaha, you’re right, they did. I didn’t even notice🤣

[[deleted user]]

A couple websites I read said 56. A couple said hundreds.

[Austin, Assistant Mod]

Abby wrote: "Sex and gender are different"

I'm just gonna put this out there, that only we in the west believe that, no other civilization on earth believes that. The Chinese, any middle eastern nation, the Russians, the south Americans all laugh when we try explaining that to them. I think it is uniquely western construct.

[Abby]

The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/enviro....

[Austin, Assistant Mod]

Abby wrote: "The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise tha..."

again, that is Europe, trying going to Saudi Arabia with that or china. It doesn't exist as a concept there.

[Abby]

Many languages don’t have gendered terms

[Austin, Assistant Mod]

Even if a language does not have gendered terms it does not mean it lacks the ability to define a man or woman. Again even with these languages if you go to their culture and try telling them they are different they will recognize it as western ideas that we are imperialistically pushing on them.

[Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues]

1) The potential for a crappy life doesn't give anyone the right to kill another person. You might as well suggest that we kill all homeless people because their quality of life is "low" in your eyes. That would get rid of the homeless problem, wouldn't it? Sure, but you'd also be committing an atrocity just like abortion does.

2) "A fetus isn’t a being it can not live on its own." Trust me, I highly suspect that lots of people here on GR can't live on their own, either. They're dependent on their parents. Doesn't make them any less human.

3) More than 95% of biologists, both secular and religious, believe that human life begins at conception.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...

So let's be clear here. When you're advocating for abortion, you're advocating for the violent and intentional ending of human life. Stop denying it.

[Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues]

All right, you guys. I hope that will turn the conversation back to abortion if not to Roe v. Wade.

Abby, you said you support abortion because it can save the mother's life. Then you also said that you would also support abortion even if it isn't to support the mother's life. Is abortion for any reason fine with you, then? Like for example, if a woman were to get an abortion because the summer is coming up and she doesn't want to ruin her bikini body (this is a true story, btw), would you still be okay with that?

I just wanted to clarify because it sounds like sometimes you're using rare situations to support your viewpoint but then at other times, it sounds like it doesn't really matter to you at all what the reason is.

[Ella あいみ M.]

Lilyyy wrote: "1) The potential for a crappy life doesn't give anyone the right to kill another person. You might as well suggest that we kill all homeless people because their quality of life is "low" in your ey..."

Excellently put, Lily! Agree 100%

[Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues]

"Unfortunately, a heated discussion on abortion can easily and quickly turn into a battle of rhetoric rather than a dialectic of reason. But the guiding light in such a discussion must always be reason, not rhetoric or other fallacies, for only reason can solve this issue and judge which side is correct."

Great to keep in mind!

[Abby]

I think abortion is fine because the pregnant person should have the rights to their body.

[Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues]

Abby wrote: "I think abortion is fine because the pregnant person should have the rights to their body."

Bodily autonomy, right?

[Abby]

What?

[Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues]

Having "rights to your own body" is bodily autonomy. I was asking if that is why you believe abortion is okay.

[Abby]

I mean yea it’s their body so people shouldn’t get to decide what they do with it.

[Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues]

Abby wrote: "I mean yea it’s their body so people shouldn’t get to decide what they do with it."

Okay, sure! What about when what they want to do with their body ends up killing someone else, too? Should that be allowed?

[Abby]

So are you against people killing their abusers? If they see that it’s the only way out of the situation?

[Abby]

So you think people can kill another person in situations?

[Abby]

My point was not that the fetus was an abuser but that you would kill people in certain situations.

[Abby]

So when a pregnant person is in a situation we’re they don’t want to keep the fetus it should be fine if they don’t keep it.

[Abby]

It could. But the person deserves rights.

[Ella あいみ M.]

And the baby in the womb is a person with rights, too.

[Abby]

I disagree.

I have to go but I can continue this conversation later.

[Lily, Assistant Mod ~ Politics and Social Issues]

Okay, sure!

For later: Why don't preborn babies deserve rights?

[Asia | Adventures with Asia Minor]

@Lilyyy, I want to commend you for carrying out this debate in a calm manner!

A big problem with debates like these is that too easily do we spurn the other side and not listen to them, simply because they're "the other side."

I also want to commend Abby for being willing to share her view and for being so passionate.

Last, I want to commend both Abby and Elijah for thier most recent civil exchange of views. Their exchange should be a standard for debating, as they obviously don't agree but are actively trying to understand the other side.

Also, soapbox comment, but for those who are against abortion on the basis of their Christian beliefs, you need to be able to listen to the other side. They have valid points, whether or not you agree with them. :)

[Abby]

@Lilyyy is preborn the same as premature?

[[deleted user]]

Abby, I have a couple questions for you.

At what point is abortion no longer okay? Is there a limit?

Why is it considered a double homicide if a pregnant woman is killed in a car crash if not that she holds a baby?

[Abby]

I think at at 23 ish weeks that should be the the cut off unless there is a health reason to intervine and because most premature babies at 24 weeks and older survive Especially in developed countries were the baby can be in intensive care for a few weeks to finish developing. ( most abortions happen before 12 weeks)

I think it is called a double homicide because it is easier, and also that a posible future life was taking . I also think that it is different if a pregnant person is killed because the fetus was killed by their parents death and someone who wasn’t personally affected by the pregnancy took it and in an abortion the pregnant person gets to choose what happens with their body.

[Ella あいみ M.]

You said a "possible future life." But isn't a baby at 12 weeks or younger a future life, too? How does the level of development change the fact that there is a human life inside the mother's womb?

Sorry if I sound a little assertive. Please
understand that I don't mean to be and I'm asking these questions purely to understand your opinion better and not to attack you or anything. 😊 (It's just the limits of writing this without being able to convey the tone. Sorry.)

[Abby]

Yes it is still a possible future life at 12 weeks and before but in my Opinion it is still the parents body and they should have the rights to it. Also a fetus doesn’t start developing a consciousness until 24 ish weeks at the earliest so the fetus doesn’t even know it exists.

I totally understand! Writing online especially debating is difficult do to not being able to use tonal Cues. I understand that all that you are asking is to try to understand my opinion better and it is the same with my questions. I did get a little heated farther back in the debate I’m sorry and I’m trying to be more calm and trying to get a better understanding of your side.

[[deleted user]]

But at 24 weeks if the baby can survive in intensive care then the baby is definitely alive inside the mother earlier.

A possible future life is taken with each abortion then though. And a doctor who isn’t personally affected by the pregnancy takes the life at the mother’s request. So it’s okay if the mother asks, but not if someone else does it forcefully?

What about the baby’s body? Don’t all women, including the unborn, deserve rights to their bodies?

Hey, have you heard of the once child policy that was instilled in China for a couple years?
If so what is your opinion on that?

[Ella あいみ M.]

Abby wrote: "Yes it is still a possible future life at 12 weeks and before but in my Opinion it is still the parents body and they should have the rights to it. Also a fetus doesn’t start developing a conscious..."

Thanks for being so understanding! I've been really impressed with how calmly you've been approaching this. 😊

So, I have a question.
Scientifically, when would you say a life begins? At what point would you say a life starts? I have my own ideas on this, but I'd like to know yours. :)

[Abby]

Yes I think it is ok if the parent asks because it’s their body that is being used.

I think that the fetus isn’t “alive” until it is out of a womb or at the very least before it has gained consciousness .

[Ella あいみ M.]

Abby wrote: "Yes it is still a possible future life at 12 weeks and before but in my Opinion it is still the parents body and they should have the rights to it. Also a fetus doesn’t start developing a conscious..."

Also, I've read studies where the baby can feel and stuff as early as 12 weeks. I don't have the studies right now, so I'll have to look for it. Sorry!

[[deleted user]]

But what if a woman wants an abortion at 8 months? Is the baby not alive? Is it morally right for her her to get an abortion?

[Ella あいみ M.]

Abby wrote: "Yes I think it is ok if the parent asks because it’s their body that is being used.

I think that the fetus isn’t “alive” until it is out of a womb or at the very least before it has gained consci..."

Ohhh, okay. Yeah, because I believe a life starts at conception, so now I understand why you would say abortion is okay.

So, are you saying that whether a baby is considered living or not is based solely on location? If a wiggling, moving baby is in the womb, they're not living yet until after the exit the womb?

[Abby]

At 8 months I don’t think it is morally right to get an abortion at that point I think other options should be used.

Most of the websites I have found say that fetuses can’t fell things till 20 ish weeks one I found say It can start to feel things In earlier weeks but it takes weeks to have their pain receptors fully connect to their system. But I’m curious to see what the studies you’ve seen say.