World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Want to talk about the 2024 election? Possible candidates? Platforms? Predictions?
Adrian wrote: "Re the illegals... my point was that everyone knows they're illegals but instead of reporting them or (more importantly) employing legals on proper salaries, the wineries (which charge squillions for their wine) are happy to exploit them for $7 an hour, knowing they can't complain to anyone...."For me that is a key rationale for 'illegal immigration,' in the west - to supply cheap exploitable warm bodies to do jobs at wages that no one else will accept.
It's the same rational that shipped manufacturing from the west to China to exploit low-cost labour and maximise profit for established corporates (Apple, etc)
Graeme wrote: "For me that is a key rationale for 'illegal immigration,' in the west - to supply cheap exploitable warm bodies to do jobs at wages that no one else will accept.It's the same rational that shipped manufacturing from the west to China to exploit low-cost labour and maximise profit for established corporates (Apple, etc)"
Boy, I don't know where to begin on these two statements...
So Americans want the cheap labour (in their own country or outside it) but don't want the consequences of that labour; ie, illegal immigrants or the loss of American manufacturing jobs to Asia.
It strikes me that only corporations win in both cases. American workers lose out in both cases... although they do get to hate the illegals and wave their flags. That's something.
Adrian wrote: "So Americans want the cheap labour (in their own country or outside it) but don't want the consequences of that labour; ie, illegal immigrants or the loss of American manufacturing jobs to Asia.It strikes me that only corporations win in both cases. American workers lose out in both cases... although they do get to hate the illegals and wave their flags. That's something...."
Average Americans (or Australians) don't make the decisions.
The policies are set in corporate boardrooms by dominant shareholders and CEOs are employed by boards to execute those policies. The pursuit of profit dictates the sacrifice of the western middle-class in favor of the narrow interests of a select few...
Graeme wrote: "Adrian wrote: "So Americans want the cheap labour (in their own country or outside it) but don't want the consequences of that labour; ie, illegal immigrants or the loss of American manufacturing j..."Mostly agree, but middle Australians and Americans still get to make one very big decision and that's about who leads us.
Unfortunately, the misinformative echo chambers sanctioned by the absolute scumbags wanting to lead our countries mean that most people don't have a clue what they're voting for.
Beau wrote: "I wouldn't worry about those elections, Philip. If the Biden regime doesn't get the results it wants, it'll just organise a coup or threaten to destabilise the country in question's economy until i..."Looking forward to a coup in UK and Belgium among many others.
Adrian wrote: "No.... but they might be sizing up Venezuala as a bolt hole.That's presuming Mr Castejon is real, or not being paid to say the American Dream is over."
Think I may have mentioned improving conditions in home countries to try to prevent migration happening in first place.
Specifically on Venezuela
https://www.reuters.com/world/america...
Not trying to make a compliment to Biden merely pointing out that foreign aid, trade agreements etc can improve living conditions and reduce foreign tension. I think Beau mentioned jaw jaw not war war.
Australia has a similar attitude to flags to the UK then, Adrian. I like what you've said in the last 24 hrs - agree with all of it apart from the last post.
Graeme is right that the big corporations welcome illegal immigration, for the reasons he states, but the voters don't ultimately get a say in it when both major parties, despite their rhetoric, are beholden to the big corporations' demands.
Graeme is right that the big corporations welcome illegal immigration, for the reasons he states, but the voters don't ultimately get a say in it when both major parties, despite their rhetoric, are beholden to the big corporations' demands.
Philip, the US threatened to tank our economy over Truss and Suez. That's how it sometimes treats its friends. Coups are reserved for those who are neither friends nor enemies, the industrial military complex being left to deal with the enemies.
You should read up on what Soros did to the UK just to make money.
There's been some doom and gloom over the 2 party system and, yes, I've been as guilty as anyone of indulging in it.
However, as with everything else in life, there's always hope...
Latest NYT/ Sienna poll now has RFK Jr on 24% and the latest Quinnipiac poll claims he is drawing an incredible 38% support from voters aged 18 - 34.
God Bless young Americans.
However, as with everything else in life, there's always hope...
Latest NYT/ Sienna poll now has RFK Jr on 24% and the latest Quinnipiac poll claims he is drawing an incredible 38% support from voters aged 18 - 34.
God Bless young Americans.
I've read it, J. Can't stand the wretched reptilian creature.
And now that "wretched reptilian creature" is funding political campaigns in the USA. For some reason, he seems particularly interested in campaigns for district attorney seats...
I saw something about this a year or so ago. So he's ramping this up further, eh? As he's a devout Bidenist, the obvious conclusion to draw is he wants to nail the Orange Man?
What do you think?
What do you think?
The current list of might be, want to be, are, no chance and some chance President of the USA candidateshttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/n...
Philip wrote: "I know we tend to focus on the US Presidential 2024 election in this thread but there could be or are going to be several othersUK - Possible although Jan 2025 last possible date
Austria
Rumania
..."
I don't see here the most intriguing of them all - presidential election in russia, slated for 03.24. Impossible to predict the winner. The likeliest is that Kennedy dude
When one looks at the results of actions taken by DAs he sponsored in previous elections, it seems possible that his goal is to destabilize American cities. While that is a serious accusation, it is consistent with the actions which Soros carried out against the Bank of England.
The middle class is the amorphous cushion that absorbs and neutralizes tensions within the society. They usually have something they don't want to lose to support revolt and uprising of those dissatisfied within the society. Once the middle class becomes thinner and discontent, the entropic moment grows to rock the societal boat.
Nik wrote: "I don't see here the most intriguing of them all - presidential election in russia, slated for 03.24. Impossible to predict the winner. The likeliest is that Kennedy dude"Will Spasky be running from his prison cell?
Another problem with governments is that they come with small character and agenda. The feeling is that our systems come close to the existential threat, yet most politicians come from the previous sense of prosperity to rather "not touch things so not to spoil" than do something drastic to steer the ship clear and not with mentality of fighters or survivors, but more of pleasant, spineless dudes to cause broadest possible charm. Those with strong character and/or agenda scare sponsors and are easily "tagged" with whatever to scare many voters.
J. wrote: "....Will Spasky be running from his prison cell? ..."If you mean Navalny, he's barred, of course. Too dangerous for the shining sun of orcostan
Nik wrote: "Philip wrote: "I know we tend to focus on the US Presidential 2024 election in this thread but there could be or are going to be several othersUK - Possible although Jan 2025 last possible date
A..."
I didn't mention that election or several others as the words democracy and Russia can't be linked.
Despite all our problems in the so called West we do allow opposition to stand in elections and campaign. I include USA in this as nothing as yet has stopped Trump campaigning, nor any of the others except lack of funds and support.
Yes, we are presented with a choice at election time but if any party or candidate veers away from the predetermined consensus, the media will destroy them. If the media fails, the status quo will have other tools up its sleeve to ensure the right result.
Worth reading a shortish novel called 'A Very British Coup', by Chris Mullin, which is based around the above. It's a cracking read and was adapted for TV in the 80s.
It's all more subtle than what passes for democracy in Russia but with a similar outcome.
Also worth noting that computer-based tech, be it surveillance, voting machines or AI, is going to make middle class revolt all the more difficult in future. We're in danger of building our own chains to slavery.
Worth reading a shortish novel called 'A Very British Coup', by Chris Mullin, which is based around the above. It's a cracking read and was adapted for TV in the 80s.
It's all more subtle than what passes for democracy in Russia but with a similar outcome.
Also worth noting that computer-based tech, be it surveillance, voting machines or AI, is going to make middle class revolt all the more difficult in future. We're in danger of building our own chains to slavery.
Beau wrote: "Yes, we are presented with a choice at election time but if any party or candidate veers away from the predetermined consensus, the media will destroy them. If the media fails, the status quo will ..."Yes, seen that TV show.
The middle class also have responsibility for the mess and I include myself when working as a middle to senior manager. To pay our mortgages we kowtowed to executive management even when we knew it was only in the interest of the profits and bonuses of those bosses. We wanted our bonuses too. Working 25-50% longer hours to get a 10% bonus. We fired underlings and cut corners just so the CEO could crow to shareholders. We then voted to cut our taxes to protect the pensions that had already been destroyed.
We have been turkeys voting for Christmas assuaging our guilt for the poor by paying charities, while denying tax revenue to fund proper social services, education and healthcare. First chance we got we purchased private healthcare or had it as a business perk. Some also sent their kids to private school in the vain hope that mixing with the elite might help their own children up the ladder.
The ridiculous part of that is that the spending on private health or education would have funded much of what the state systems needed. Better involvement might even have driven improvements in these services. The rich can afford school fees but not pay more tax? The schools claim they are charities avoiding tax on their income.
We hope for better candidates but we don't stand ourselves. We just for a pig wearing a rosette, keep our heads down and hope it won't be too bad. Social media has just taken complaints from the pub on-line
Sorry feeling a bit depressed. I made mistake of listening to our Government claiming a damning justified loss in Supreme court can be changed by legislating that white is black. If only there was an election due...
Philip, although we have disagreed on plenty of things across the threads, we have something in common. We have both moved leftwards as we've got older, which, if the famous Churchill quote is true, suggests neither of us has a brain :)
Lol.
Everybody has a choice and shares some blame for what happens around us, but I wouldn't be too hard on yourself - it is only natural to want to survive and prosper, particularly if you have kids.
Also, the most important thing is how you deal with people in day to day life. We all make mistakes and sometimes let ourselves down, but that's just part of being human. As long as one's overall intentions are good, everything's fine.
Although I once joked about it on here, I would never go into politics. I wouldn't put myself or my family through the ensuing media s**t storm. So, on reflection, I suppose our own politicians deserve a degree of respect (not much, mind) for braving it.
Talking politics on here is good. It allows one to get things off one's chest, challenge one's own beliefs and learn something new.
I keep telling myself to stop thinking and talking about politics because I have no control over it, but due to the frailty of human nature, I never manage to succeed :) And, after all, politics is everywhere in life. Short of becoming hermits, we can't avoid it. So it's important.
In terms of the internet, I have a feeling that AI might eventually kill it for me. If we get to the stage when we can't even believe audio or video footage, what's the point? Then it'll be time to completely focus on the real, not virtual, world. The alternative would be a quick descent into madness.
Lol.
Everybody has a choice and shares some blame for what happens around us, but I wouldn't be too hard on yourself - it is only natural to want to survive and prosper, particularly if you have kids.
Also, the most important thing is how you deal with people in day to day life. We all make mistakes and sometimes let ourselves down, but that's just part of being human. As long as one's overall intentions are good, everything's fine.
Although I once joked about it on here, I would never go into politics. I wouldn't put myself or my family through the ensuing media s**t storm. So, on reflection, I suppose our own politicians deserve a degree of respect (not much, mind) for braving it.
Talking politics on here is good. It allows one to get things off one's chest, challenge one's own beliefs and learn something new.
I keep telling myself to stop thinking and talking about politics because I have no control over it, but due to the frailty of human nature, I never manage to succeed :) And, after all, politics is everywhere in life. Short of becoming hermits, we can't avoid it. So it's important.
In terms of the internet, I have a feeling that AI might eventually kill it for me. If we get to the stage when we can't even believe audio or video footage, what's the point? Then it'll be time to completely focus on the real, not virtual, world. The alternative would be a quick descent into madness.
Beau wrote: "Philip, although we have disagreed on plenty of things across the threads, we have something in common. We have both moved leftwards as we've got older, which, if the famous Churchill quote is true..."Thanks Beau. I'm not standing either for the same reason. I tried holding MP to account during Expenses scandal. He got re-elected see pig and rosette comment. Then left with gold plated pension and the expenses. His replacement has turned out to be a nutcase who'd find a welcome home in the furthest right aspects of GOP in USA. Wish we could expel him there...
I deem self-criticism as important. After all we are fully responsible for ourselves although we don’t have full control over the circumstances. Anything should be measured upon oneself first before being offered to be tried on anyone else. That there is frequently a big gap between what politicians, clergy, influencers suggest others should do and what they themselves do is that very hypocrisy that often undermines our trust in a system/religion or even goodheartedness of human(not)kind 😎 I’ve put myself on a list running for local elections, but it’s way beyond a realistic place to make it into the council. At least I’m not shunning away entirely 😉
Good points, Nik, and respect to you for putting your name forward. I would vote for you. In fact, despite sometimes disagreeing with their views, I would vote for any other active group member who stood for office too. Okay, I'd vote for Ian out of pure devilment, but what the heck?
Ian ;)
Philip, the expenses scandal was sickening but look on the brightside - at least The Telegraph broke the story and it caused momentary discomfort for the pigs with their snouts in the trough.
Btw, forgot to comment on your Guardian link. When I read about the chap called Binkley, I immediately thought of Adrian.
Adrian, you need to check out a lesser-known US presidential candidate called Ryan Binkley. I think you'll like him 😑 😀 🤣
Ian ;)
Philip, the expenses scandal was sickening but look on the brightside - at least The Telegraph broke the story and it caused momentary discomfort for the pigs with their snouts in the trough.
Btw, forgot to comment on your Guardian link. When I read about the chap called Binkley, I immediately thought of Adrian.
Adrian, you need to check out a lesser-known US presidential candidate called Ryan Binkley. I think you'll like him 😑 😀 🤣
Sorry, the only British politicos who have impressed me (positively) in the last few years were Larry the Cat and Lord Buckethead.
When I'm feeling positive, I'll try and see the best in them. When I'm being realistic, I think you're right, J.
Even charismatic marmite characters, who are incredible orators, like Farage and Galloway, ultimately disappoint by flaunting themselves on reality TV.
Going back to when I first became interested in politics, there were some serious heavyweights, right across the political spectrum - Thatcher, Heseltine, Benn, Shore, etc, etc. Even if you didn't like them, you had to respect them as honest, conviction politicians.
This is partly why I'm jealous of you having RFK Jr. Alright, you can pick holes in some of what he says but he is articulate, appears honest, doesn't strike me as being bought and paid for, and will debate any issue in any interview. He's a proper political heavyweight.
Btw, your thoughts on Soros in the US are interesting. I'm worried about the Davos brigade. When I was just making a cup of tea, I was thinking about the 'own nothing and be happy' mantra (as you do), and was wondering if some sort of planned AI attack on the internet might wipe out all records of who owns what, sending us all to the default starting point of Agenda 2030 (or whatever it's called).
Anyway, I'm straying off topic...
Even charismatic marmite characters, who are incredible orators, like Farage and Galloway, ultimately disappoint by flaunting themselves on reality TV.
Going back to when I first became interested in politics, there were some serious heavyweights, right across the political spectrum - Thatcher, Heseltine, Benn, Shore, etc, etc. Even if you didn't like them, you had to respect them as honest, conviction politicians.
This is partly why I'm jealous of you having RFK Jr. Alright, you can pick holes in some of what he says but he is articulate, appears honest, doesn't strike me as being bought and paid for, and will debate any issue in any interview. He's a proper political heavyweight.
Btw, your thoughts on Soros in the US are interesting. I'm worried about the Davos brigade. When I was just making a cup of tea, I was thinking about the 'own nothing and be happy' mantra (as you do), and was wondering if some sort of planned AI attack on the internet might wipe out all records of who owns what, sending us all to the default starting point of Agenda 2030 (or whatever it's called).
Anyway, I'm straying off topic...
Adrian wrote: "I'm very conscious of the fact that the vast majority of the world would regard me as wealthy...But Papa, you've not engaged with my question. You've answered a question you chose to propose for ..."
What question? People not being happy not being as rich as someone else? My point to your question is "poor" is a relative term.
Beau wrote: "I wouldn't worry about those elections, Philip. If the Biden regime doesn't get the results it wants, it'll just organise a coup or threaten to destabilise the country in question's economy until i..."We are not going to intervene in Australia and when Biden loses, he will go away while his side screams the election was stolen just like the last time they lost. I can only hope they do not have an insurrection. Oh that's right, that will be a riot because they will assert it is mostly peaceful protests.....8^)
Graeme wrote: "IApparently, sleeping on the streets of Venezuela is a better option than sleeping on the streets of Chicago...."Chicago is mighty cold in the winter and sleeping on the streets is not a healthy life style choice. As for Chicago politicians, I doubt they sweat it at all.
Adrian wrote: "No.... but they might be sizing up Venezuala as a bolt hole.That's presuming Mr Castejon is real, or not being paid to say the American Dream is over."
Now who is being the cynic?...8^)
Papaphilly wrote: "What question? People not being happy not being as rich as someone else? My point to your question is "poor" is a relative term. ..."I contend that the world is awash with an ever growing mountain of debt which gives the 'illusion,' of wealth, not the reality of wealth.
If we had strong economies and real wealth, our governments at all levels would subsist on tax receipts alone without resorting to debt. We would have real savings in excess of debt across our societies. Clearly that is not the case.
Debt is a lein on the future production of real goods and services. When we borrow non-constructive (malinvested) debt, we consume the future resulting in future austerity.
That austerity is in the process of arriving and will manifest in multiple ways, the chief being the cost of living will rise while wages remain stagnant or rise at a slower pace than costs resulting in the inevitable rise in the % of income directed at the basics of life, rent, food, electricity, etc.
People will be squeezed from the bottom of the social heirarchy upwards. The last to be impacted will be those at the top of society.
The economic process of decay will produce cultural and social decay, such as a rise in nihilism (anything goes and nothing matters), chaos, and group insanity. Strange, bizarre, and self-destructive ideas will take root and flourish.
The periphery will break away and the center will not hold.
I consider myself an optimist.
There are no politicians willing to address debt.
Papaphilly wrote: "Adrian wrote: "No.... but they might be sizing up Venezuala as a bolt hole.That's presuming Mr Castejon is real, or not being paid to say the American Dream is over."
Now who is being the cynic?..."
I've always been a cynic.
Nothing to see here...
Hooray, I get to choose between a senile career politician who actively hates people like me or a bloviator in need of a thesaurus who at least doesn't seem to hate people like me. I get to make this choice while I watch all of the dreams I've toiled towards burn in the fires of inflation and government profligacy. And the cherry on top is the judgemental comments which will rain down from those who didn't vote.
J. wrote: "Hooray, I get to choose between a senile career politician who actively hates people like me or a bloviator in need of a thesaurus who at least doesn't seem to hate people like me. I get to make th..."I also feel that I lack representation within the available major parties.
J. wrote: "Hooray, I get to choose between a senile career politician who actively hates people like me or a bloviator in need of a thesaurus who at least doesn't seem to hate people like me. I get to make th..."Why do you think Biden hates you, and why do you think Trump doesn't hate you?
In fact I'm pretty sure neither of them hate you. I don't know enough about Biden except to say he's way too old and doddery to be president NOW let alone the next four years. And that stupid shuffle he does up to the microphone supposed to make him look fit and vital just makes him look like he's gonna keel over any second. Stop it Joe!
As for Trump, I suspect that just like the women whose pussies he boasts about grabbing... he has exactly the same contempt for those who vote for him. He's grabbing your votes.
I read Biden's book, Promise Me, Dad. He has a deep seated contempt for us that occasionally boils up in the news.https://youtu.be/2nLlKZQ8DB4?si=oHO3l...
J. wrote: "I read Biden's book, Promise Me, Dad. He has a deep seated contempt for us that occasionally boils up in the news.https://youtu.be/2nLlKZQ8DB4?si=oHO3l..."
His contempt reflects the rulers sponsoring him.
Graeme wrote: "His contempt reflects the rulers sponsoring him."You mean the people paying him?
We can argue how much Trump is worth and how he made that money. But we can agree that Trump made most of that money in the private sector.
Biden somehow amassed an estimated net worth of $10 million after spending almost his entire working life on a government salary. And he has the nerve to call himself, "Middle Class Joe". Back in the nineties, his fellow senators called him, "the man from MBNA".
J. wrote: "Biden somehow amassed an estimated net worth of $10 million after spending almost his entire working life on a government salary. ..."Add another 0 on the end of what's been socked away.
That's why I don't accept the argument that Hunter isn't running for president. He isn't the candidate, he's the candidate's bag man.Sorry about the rant.
J. wrote: "That's why I don't accept the argument that Hunter isn't running for president. He isn't the candidate, he's the candidate's bag man.Sorry about the rant."
Bada bing bada boom!
J. wrote: "We can argue how much Trump is worth and how he made that money. But we can agree that Trump made most of that money in the private sector..."Most of it he simply invented according to the fraud trial.
Yeah, that's who you want in charge of the economy.
This is the third time I've posted this Michael Moore clip to help y'all understand why people vote for Trump https://youtu.be/TEHekdQSiXg?si=nnhOG...
And now they've had four years of Uncle Joe to remind them.
This ought to get some fun reactions.Brandon Herrera is a candidate for the U.S. House from Texas' 23rd district.
https://brandonherreraforcongress.com/
Now for the fun part.
https://youtu.be/ldHhLB1KzqA?si=72NxZ...
That YouTube blue box is on point.
J. wrote: "This is the third time I've posted this Michael Moore clip to help y'all understand why people vote for Trump https://youtu.be/TEHekdQSiXg?si=nnhOG...
And now they've had four years of Un..."
It still astounds me that the economic and political disenfranchisment of the working class is not [1] generally acknowledged and [2] seen as a loss to society.
I'm also surprised that when they don't vote for an establishment (who have demonstrated at best indifference to their plight) figure (from any party) they are declared to be 'deplorable,' or some other epithet.
World, Writing, Wealth
Books mentioned in this topic
The Anti-Federalist Papers and the Constitutional Convention Debates (other topics)The Federalist Papers (other topics)
The Anti-Federalist Papers and the Constitutional Convention Debates (other topics)
Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis (other topics)
Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail '72 (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
J.D. Vance (other topics)Tulsi Gabbard (other topics)
Smedley D. Butler (other topics)
Robert Iger (other topics)
Larry Elder (other topics)
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Explicitly, there are two economic modes for a human being.
[1] Value Creators: Act by yourself, or collaborate with others to produce goods and services that are voluntarily acquired and consumed by other human beings.
[2] Value Extractors Consume goods and services provided by other human beings.
In a functional economic society, the two modes are more or less balanced across everyone with value creation exceeding value extraction to allow for inevitable value waste. (No process is 100% efficient).
The whole of the real tax take occurs from the labour of value creators..
There are no other options.
Of note: It is normal for an economically functional human being to swap modes during any given day and to persist with one mode dominant for long periods of time. We are all extractionists prior to adulthood and in retirement. During our productive years we over-produce to cover the costs of raising children and to pay for our own retirement.
The fundamental axis of conflict within society is between permanent extractionists who never contribute value and value creators who seek to retain the value of their creative labour.
There is no rational conversation about tax without understanding this dynamic.