Home of the Gentry -- Discussion Thread

[Plateresca]

Cindy wrote: "Interestingly enough for your poll, Plateresca"
Interesting, indeed! Thank you for sharing this :)

[Plateresca]

Thanks for the 'poll' answers, everybody! :)

[Plateresca]

Mikhalevich, let's talk about him.
In one of the articles I've read, Mikhalevich was compared to Don Quixote: his Spanish cloak, his romantic love for a prostitute, his idealism...

In the year following to the publication of 'The Home of the Gentry', Turgenev published an article called 'Hamlet and Don Quixote', which you can read online here:
http://www.donquixote.com/uploads/4/3...

...where he said, among other things: 'the Don Quixotes invent; the Hamlets exploit what has been invented.'

If Mikhalevich really is a kind of Don Quixote in the sense of this text (a person whose mission is to inspire others with ideas), then I wonder if Turgenev saw any parallels between Lavretsky and Hamlet (the sceptical type in the sense of the article).

[Carol]

I think by the article , Turgenev says there are only two types of men, so definitely if Mikhalevich can be compared to Don Quixote, I think Lavretsky is the Hamlet. In true Looks like Turgenev judged each person by these two fictional character’s. .

[BarbaraW]

I’m just getting into it due to hectic work schedule and house renovations. Why do the characters have a given name that is Russian unpronounceable and then have ANOTHER name too?!

[BarbaraW]

Also not to belabor things and yrs I have read a lot of tough literature over the years- Marya and Marfa. What was he thinking??

[Carol]

M&M’s

[Ken]

Interesting quote I marked from Ch. XXXIV:

"Liza did not utter a word during the controversy between Lavretsky and Panshin, but she followed it closely and was entirely on Lavretsky's side. Politics interested her very little ; but the high-handed tone of the worldly government official (he had never let himself go like that before) repelled her; his contempt for Russia deeply offended her. It had never occurred to Liza that she was a patriot; but she was spiritually at home with Russian people; the Russian cast of mind delighted her; she would spend hours unselfconsciously talking to the village elder from her mother's estate whenever he came into town, and she talked to him as an equal, without any lordly condescension. Lavretsky felt all of this: he would not have spoken simply to counter Panshin's argument; he spoke only for Liza. They said nothing to each other, even their eyes met only occasionally; but they both understood that they had come closely together that evening, understood that they liked and disliked the same things. They differed only on one matter; but Liza secretly hoped to bring him to God."

1. Liza'sa apolitical patriotism reminds me of present-day generalizations about Russians. I prefer to separate the majority of peace-loving Russians from their jingoistic leader and his oligarchical sycophants. When I see organizations like the Wimbledon officials banning Russians and Belarusians from playing in that upcoming tournament, it bothers me because it misses the point and punishes people who may be as anti-Putin (but unable to say so) as most Westerners are. It's one thing if a tennis player shoots his or her mouth off in pro-war, anti-Ukrainian ways, otherwise, what point is there in the broad-brushing of Russians (like Liza) in general?

2. We see here, in Liza's ability to speak to the working class, that she is not just any member of the gentry, but one who sees people as people. To me it signals she ACTS like a Christian (if a Christian is defined as one who tries to act like Jesus did in depictions from the New Testament), vs. just talks the talk. Contrast this to America today where so many right-wing "Christians" have become more politically preoccupied than they are religiously preoccupied. Many support Donald Trump, a "man," if you put his words and actions besides Jesus Christ's, who would be the polar opposite of JS's example. In short, they are worshiping the golden calf of political power despite consequences for the poor, the neglected, the unrepresented. Cheers for Liza.

3. That said, we get a drawback. Why does Liza insist on bringing Lavretsky to God? Wouldn't Lavretsky's actions/words, if they were close to the Gospel's examples, be good enough for her? Why does he have to commit to the religion to satisfy her? To me, this is part of the reason she chooses to "marry God" via the convent instead of marrying a man. She succumbs to the human need to pledge allegiance, confusing faith with the true importance of good works. She ascribes to God the human weakness of insisting on subservience and verbal commitments vs. seeing God as above that sort of thing, as one who looks at a man's body of work as an imperfect human (the way He -- or She -- would judge a human who lived in parts of the world where ideas of Christianity had never reached).

This is why I have ambivalent feelings about Liza the character and think she doesn't fully know herself, either. Why? Because, based on Lavretsky's final visit at the convent, I'm not convinced she's fully happy.

[Carol]

She was hiding from herself . She was indoctrinated at a young impressionable age. I agree she doesn’t know HER mind, only what she was taught about how a woman should act, think feel and worship. In regards for trying to bring religion to Lavetsky, she was proselytizing as most Christians feel it is their duty to bring people to their form of worship.

[Kathleen]

I agree with your points, Ken. I liked and disliked the same things about Liza. As you say, she didn't seem fully happy, and I think making a decision like that at such a young age is unfortunate. She had a tendency to humankindness, but a youthful zealousness about religion. Makes me think of the Nun's Story (the movie, I haven't read the book yet). I have a feeling in Liza's time and place, leaving later would have been a difficult if not impossible option.

But your quote is one I marked too. What I was curious about is this line: "the Russian cast of mind delighted her." I'd love to know more about what Turgenev meant by the Russian cast of mind. As you point out, this cultural identity is something completely different than politics, everywhere I'm sure.

[Cherisa]

BarbaraW wrote: "Also not to belabor things and yrs I have read a lot of tough literature over the years- Marya and Marfa. What was he thinking??"
Sorry, Barbara, but I don't think this would be any different from an English-based story having a Tom and a Tim, or a Mary and a May, for instance.

[Cherisa]

Ken wrote: "Interesting quote I marked from Ch. XXXIV:

"Liza did not utter a word during the controversy between Lavretsky and Panshin, but she followed it closely and was entirely on Lavretsky's side. Politi..."

I missed this thread before Ken, and just got to it. I really appreciate your insights and thoughts on Liza's Christianity and how they apply similarly in today's environment. I mostly just wrote her off as naïve and simplistic, but you've given me much more appreciation of her beliefs. I think we also have to remember that she was only 19. Though her core personality and character could be firmly in place, her understanding and choices would be more immature than might be best for her or those around her.

[Plateresca]

This is very interesting, Ken!
'Confusing faith with the true importance of good works'. Well, yes, I think she's an idealist and she truly believes her becoming a nun is an act of goodness.

I am sure she's unhappy at the convent, but still convinced she's doing the right thing.

[Plateresca]

Carol wrote: "In regards for trying to bring religion to Lavetsky, she was proselytizing as most Christians feel it is their duty to bring people to their form of worship."

Yes, that's what I thought, too. A good Christian should always try to make good Christians of others. She's trying to do the right thing, again! I hope that in the monastery she could at least do some charitable work, not just pray for the sins of others. It's very sad to think that all this passionate desire to do good amounted to just her interring herself.

[Plateresca]

Cherisa wrote: "I think we also have to remember that she was only 19."

Exactly! She's very young and inexperienced, hasn't met a lot of people. Plus, she doesn't feel at home in her mother's home.

Come to think of it, this passionate desire to do good generally ignoring what's good for oneself reminds me of Dorothea Brooke, although it feels like Dorothea is more popular with readers :)

[Plateresca]

Kathleen wrote: "What I was curious about is this line: "the Russian cast of mind delighted her." I'd love to know more about what Turgenev meant by the Russian cast of mind."

I don't know, but judging by the behaviour of the characters here, 'self-sacrifice' might be a part of it.

[BarbaraW]

I finished this little ditty and will read all your comments after I give a brief review.

Easy read other than the complicated, multiple names for each character. Simple plot line really and author’s descriptions of the countryside were eloquent and pretty. Kept wondering if it was satire which,if you read the preface, is possible. He really took the easy way out by making Liza ‘get thee to a nunnery.’

Refreshing in its simplicity and allows the reader to see what life was like for the wealthy in this age in Russia and Paris.

[Kathleen]

BarbaraW wrote: "I finished this little ditty and will read all your comments after I give a brief review.

Easy read other than the complicated, multiple names for each character. Simple plot line really and auth..."

I like your thoughts, BarbaraW. This little ditty was pretty!