Beta Reader Group discussion
Critique Partners and Swaps
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What do you do when your swap isn't "fair"?
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Hi Lena, I think often it's a case of trial and error and finding someone who suits exactly what you are looking for whether for beta reads or swaps. Peoples expectations can be wildly different! it can be good to list exactly what you're looking for ie. a questionnaire. I send one to my beta's or any other authors looking at my work. It can help as a guide. Happy to email mine if you think it might be useful
Mod
Hi Lena, I've done a handful of beta swaps so far. Some of the books I read were really good and I had to look deeply in order to give some kind of meaningful feedback to the author. Then I had betas where I was so overwhelmed that I felt I could not wade through the entire text. Anyway, if I were you, I would just keep doing swaps until you find a consensus in what people are telling you. If everyone is saying that your book is good and has no problems, then maybe that is the case. Another thing that helps is setting a time frame for completion. Communicate when you need to have feedback and find out what their time frame is as well.
I think a questionnaire is a good thought. I've done reads for about half a dozen people, and I always do a Markup in Word. When something just isn't working for me I tell the writer as soon as I can, which is hard. I don't want to discourage anyone, but some people seem to be "tone deaf" to what good writing actually is.
Like everyone else said it truly is trial and error. I've actually gotten to the point I think I've found some great fits for me and probably won't pursue any new swaps. I did a swap with someone on another site (I wonder if it's the same site) I read theirs and never heard anything back on mine, since then I've rewrote it twice so that tells you how long ago that was. I understand I get busy too sometimes but if I've swapped and they've done mine I make it a priority to finish theirs.
I always look at a persons profile to see what their reviews are like before committing to an exchange either for reviews or beta reads.
I'm currently under swaps - one is with another indie author, we like each other's series, so it's "easy" since we like each other's writing style and can concentrate on the plot and other stuff that might jar the reader. In the other case, the writer read my books last year and this year sent me the first book. I struggled through it, especially at the beginning, but I dutifully ended it and sent my feedback before going back to check what feedback I had received. I probably said more, but hey... maybe that writer hadn't completed the first book back then and didn't know what to say!
Besides, I usually look for reader's reactions, not another writer's suggestions (that's what I pay editors for, LOL).
Anyhow, it's hard to find people to beta-swap with (and for me to find betas, since English is not my mother tongue), so I hear your pain, Lena! :)
Mod
It would have been one thing if they'd both had the same complaints. But I *know* it wasn't good enough to receive a 'no problems' because it was only a second draft. And the person who DNF--that's fine for a review, IMO, but since I critiqued her entire MS, I had assumed we were swapping edits on the entire book.
I feel the same as you if I do a trade I would expect the same as if I paid someone to beta for me since I'm taking up a lot of my time to do it for them, I would expect the same in return.
erm... Lena... don't join the school of ethernal rewriting! Your first draft might actually be better than the tenth, because you wrote it with your creative brain! ;) When you go back and start using the editor brain, that's when you make mistakes! :)I can tell you my own evolution as a writer. I used to be a one-draft writer (because it was long before the internet, I had no first readers, so everything looked just fine - when I try to read that stuff now, I go "Yikes!" but it's also 20 years later, LOL). Then I started "studying" creative writing and there are all those people who tell you you need to rewrite to death. So I was stuck in rewriting hell with my first indie-published novel for almost a year. I had writer's burn-out. And then I said "What the hell?"
Now I'm a 2 max.3 draft writer. I write draft 1. Send it out to as meny betas I can find (usually not many, unfortunately). Rewrite. Send to editor and publish. Sometimes there might be a third draft if I keep adding stuff in (I write the bones first and then add the meat). That's it.
Don't assume your book was bad because it was "only" the second draft. You know how I got out of rewriting hell? By going back to the very first version and expanding on that one! :)
Happy writing!
Mod
Maybe if I'd had one 'uneven' swap it wouldn't have been a big deal, but having 2 left me without much to work with when trying to do edits.
@Barbara, I might have been tempted to believe it was excellent if all my betas had said so. But obviously one couldn't even stand to read the whole thing it was so bad! Lol...
Live and learn, I guess. On to find better suited matches.
ive had my share of uneven swaps. it just comes with the territory. just keep at it and if it boils down to it enforce timeframes
ive had my share of uneven swaps. it just comes with the territory. just keep at it and if it boils down to it enforce timeframes
Mod
Next time maybe I'll start with a chapter swap. I figured authors would be more 'equal' since we're each doing a favor for the other. Guess not!
Not, indeed! ;) I sent a novella to another author asking her to check my character from her country, didn't hear from her and when I asked (after I betaread her fantasy novel...) and she said "Ah, no, DNF, I guess it didn't grab me" - she wasn't even supposed to comment on it, only tell me if the character behaved like a guy from her country would... and it was a novella! :( I had the cover artist (from the same country) give me more feedback...So, no. Other authors are not always the best match... especially if and when they "critique" and try to rewrite the book for you! :)
I always check the reviews they have left for other books. If they are thoughtful, and they often read your genre, you could be onto a winner.Saying that, I will be having a beta read available soon, so if anyone wants a swap give me a shout. Contemporary romance genre, but I'm also happy with erotica, fantasy and scifi.
Mod
Guess I'm not alone then! Sounds a lot like what happened with mine. I'd rather someone try to rewrite it than not say anything at all!
Mod
Saying that, I will be having a beta read available so..."
I do that here on Goodreads, but this was a different site, so there weren't any reviews to check. I also like the "Good Beta Readers" thread in this group, but it can be hard to find those people, too.
Have you tried Scribophile? They work on a karma point currency. You cannot post your work unless you review someone else's and vice versa. It works well. The criticism is helpful, and the writing forums are great.
Mod
I absolutely recommend Scribophile. The Karma system is wonderful and the feedback you get is amazing. They have Spotlights so you are almost guaranteed to get at least three in-depth feedbacks on your work. The only "downsides" are you do need to crit other works (it "costs" 5 Karma for each work you post) and you need a Premium account to post more than 2 stories at a time (I believe it's something like $9 a month).
Mod
Here is a bright note. Perhaps you can use the lack of fredback to find a weak spot and make it better. I had several people read my early drafts...or try to read them. They all lost inderest all at once at the same exact spot. Turns out my exposition was killing my momentum. I found out where that was I fixed it and my story was better. I hope this helps. :)
I know this was posted a long time ago, but just wanted to say Lena, I'm in the exact same boat you are. It's made me only swap one or two chapters at a time when I do try swapping now, never the whole book at once. I had someone throw a 60 page chunk my way, took the time to read and comment on all of it, and passed her about 40 pages of mine. She only worked through 20 and now seems to be dodgining me. I think it's really hard to find someone who matches up with you. Finding a crituqe partner/swapper is hard. So hard. Sometimes I swap first chapters with someone and realize their book needs a lot of commenting and work, that the suggestions I make are going to be throughout their entire manuscript, and that makes me want to back out. I'm terrified of swaps now because I'll put in hours of commenting, and I am not a fast reader, and then suddenly what I get back isn't much at all. Then, I'm sitting there going OH NO I COULD HAVE BEEN WRITING FOR THOSE HOURS AHHHHHHHH
The only way that I have found to combat this is to be as detailed as possible on your expectations. One person I read for actually forwarded me a word doc with questions to answer. Plot, character development etc. Also, expect to be let down on occasion. It's part of the process we all go through.
I haven't done a swap in this group, and I've been lucky to find some great betas. If a beta reader doesn't offer much feedback, I figure they're doing me a favor, taking time to read for me, and anything they offer is a bonus.
But I've done 2 beta swaps with authors on another site where I didn't get much feedback. I give detailed feedback and always read the whole book, even when it has a lot of problems. One of my betas just said it was good, he didn't know anything he'd change. After receiving my feedback, the other author said she only read about 1/4 of the book and didn't want to continue(she did give good feedback on that 1/4, but it's hard to know how the plot works if your reader doesn't finish).
Besides not using that site again (which I may not after my 2 experiences), I'm not sure I can do much. But I expected feedback on writing issues, since it was from another writer's perspective, rather than a reader perspective. If you've had a similar problem before, what did you do?