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[2023] Wild Discussion
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Thomas
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Sep 21, 2022 03:07PM
Glad I googled it first Dispora would work for me either specifically Asian or in general
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Thomas wrote: "We don’t have a gender prompt I did consider “ a book by a woman that won an award also open to men”"I really like that wording!
Dubhease wrote: "We have the Latin American prompt and PS has a Latinx prompt. I'm reading a book where both the author and the protagonist have a Mexican mother and Cuban father, but they were born in the United States."How could someone of Mexican and Cuban heritage NOT count as Latine? Those are both Latin-American countries, Spanish speaking, etc. Nationality/citizenship is not the same as ethnicity...
Not to be argumentative (with you or anyone else who has responded) but I have never found it a problem to find an author who identifies as a POC, or a member of a specific race or ethnicity. Not everyone self-identifies (or should be required to), but plenty of people in minoritized groups do, which makes this kind of prompt easy to me. I do get that race and ethnicity have different valence in the US vs. some other places in the world, but that seems a separate point to me.
I love genre mashups but I dislike it as a prompt because people do it wrong. Historical mystery is a subgenre of both historical fiction and mystery, it is not a mashup. A true mashup is something like western and science fiction. It drove me bonkers when we had this as a prompt. (I’m trying to convey this with light humor, not being bashy or whatever, just fyi.)
Like I’m worried that a dystopian novel is going to make the list from this week’s vote because people are going to read apocalyptic novels and call them dystopian when they’re two very distinct things.
Dalex- please enlighten me, how are apocalyptic not dystopia? I get that it can be dystopian without the apocalypse but why isn’t apocalypse dystopian?
@Thomas and @Martha, I do like the wording "Asian disapora"! Sounds better than "Asian minority author".
Emily wrote: "Dubhease, I had that issue with the book I chose for the Latin American author as well. She was born and raised in Mexico, but the entire book features white upper class characters in 1800s France,..."Emily, just out of curiosity, why does it feel like cheating when the characters don't match the author's heritage? Is it different when they write a fantasy book without mention of race? I don't think you need to feel bad about that because the way I saw it, the purpose of the prompt was to support authors of Latin American heritage and you did that by reading a book by a Mexican author.
I realized that some of the authors I listed when suggesting my Asian diaspora prompt have books that don't feature Asian characters/culture (some authors of Asian descent identify solely as American/British/whichever country they were born in without considering ethnic background/ancestry), so your comment got me thinking about my suggestion as well. I have never thought that an author is more or less valid of a (insert race here) author based on if they write about their own heritage or choose to write about people of other races. I think it's only a concern if the prompt is about the character, history, traditions, specifies "own-voices" etc.
The author I'm using for this year's Popsugar's romance by a BIPOC author prompt is black but writes about white European characters (presumably because she loves the world of regency England) but now I'm wondering if some people would consider her less of a BIPOC author than someone who also writes about BIPOC characters. Or if a BIPOC author who writes own-voices romances is "better" to read and support.
Irene wrote: "I'd like to suggest something related to Asian minority authors, but am having a hard time figuring out wording (and I'm also not sure if there's any interest in it). I think it's highly relevant s..."I would definitely vote for that. I read a lot of books by Asian Americans so it would be fairly easy for me to find a book, but I'd still like the prompt.
I recently read Portrait of a Thief, and while I did not love it, I thought of it just now, because it is (a) about art, and (b) about the experiences of Chinese-Americans and how it is different for: Chinese living in China, Chinese-Americans who are second or third generation, and Chinese immigrants in the US.
Nancy wrote: "I'm sorry, is it me? I feel like lots of people are misreading what I'm saying today. Maybe I'm not being clear enough. Or just need to stop posting.Yes. Genre that starts with a letter in your n..."
No, you're being clear. But there are A LOT of posts in this thread, many many posts per hour, and people lose track of who said what and what exactly was being referred to. So an idea may stick in their head, but the details are forgotten. It's hard to avoid that happening in a busy thread like this.
And I think you might be misunderstanding some replies, too. I saw just agreement with your comment just now, about the genre starting with your initial. Like: "oh yeah, that one! we did that before and I liked it!"
@Nadine, I own that book and was hoping to read it at some point next year! That discussion of Chinese-American identity sounds super interesting.
Irene wrote: "@Nadine, I own that book and was hoping to read it at some point next year! That discussion of Chinese-American identity sounds super interesting."I think it might be even more meaningful to a reader who has experienced it.
For me, I got really distracted by the writing. That author LOOOOOOOVES to describe eye lashes and cheekbones and jawbones and rising and setting sun. Too many cheekbones in that book!!! So, go into it expecting All the Cheekbones, and you will enjoy :-)
I think something else we needs to consider with the ´author identifies as’ prompts is there are now concerns with publishers pushing authors to ‘openly identify ‘ when that isn’t what the author wishes to do
Phew, this thread definitely blew up. I think the authors being pushed to identify are LGBTQIA+, not really ethnicity. Not to be crude, but most ethnic minorities can be easily identified by their pictures. Of course there are exceptions, I’ve gotten asked if I’m every ethnicity at this point, but overall it’s pretty easy to look and see if it’s an Asian, Black, Indian, etc author.
Also with minorities, if they could pass as white I could at least see American publishing companies actually asking minority authors to hide their ethnicity instead of pushing to share it. It’s still a lot more beneficial to appear white in publishing.
Juliet Brown wrote: "I think something else we needs to consider with the ´author identifies as’ prompts is there are now concerns with publishers pushing authors to ‘openly identify ‘ when that isn’t what the author w..."Agree. I think the #ownvoices movement started out as something really great, with a desire to center people who had been shut out, but I have just seen so many stories where someone was forcibly outed by readers' demands after a book with "representation" was published that I am worried about the trend. (To be perfectly clear, I STILL want to read diverse voices. It's important to me to hear from them. I just have some reservations about the way this is playing out in the industry.)
All that said, I love Asian and Asian American writers and I would welcome a prompt to read from the Asian diaspora.
Juliet Brown wrote: "I think something else we needs to consider with the ´author identifies as’ prompts is there are now concerns with publishers pushing authors to ‘openly identify ‘ when that isn’t what the author w..."I don't see why we need to take that into account in this discussion. Yes, publishers should not be doing that. But is it affected by this reading challenge?
Publishers are doing it because #ownvoices became a marketing feature. It's good that people want ownvoices, and it's bad that publishers are being unethical. The originator of the #ownvoices term has backed away from the term for this reason. But I don't think readers need to back away from seeking out a diverse group of authors.
Regarding authors identifying as "x:" I will read the author's Goodreads biography page, and if whatever we are looking for is listed there, I will use it. But I do feel uneasy about judging people by their physical appearance or Googling an author to find out about their identification/ethnicity/nationality, etc.
dalex wrote: "I love genre mashups but I dislike it as a prompt because people do it wrong. Historical mystery is a subgenre of both historical fiction and mystery, it is not a mashup. A true mashup is something..."So your concern is more that you can't depend on a listopia to have suggestions that are truly mashups, but in reality are just subgenres? Isn't a subgenre like historical romance just a mashup that became really popular? I ask, because I thought Historical and Romance were considered different genres. I may just not know the nuances of how genres are categorized.
I know this is just one opinion, but you shouldn’t feel uneasy about seeing a picture of someone and deducing their race. Mainly because EVERY human does this. I identify as black, but look Hispanic or Turkish (random I know), and my last name is very European white. I’d be a terrible author and author to research. But it’s ok to see Celeste Ng or Toni Morrison and identify them as Asian or black. It’s not offensive. If you take that to a negative angle, that’s not great. But to say I want to read a diverse author or an author of x ethnicity, I’m sure they would be happy to have readers expand their POVs with their books
For cross/genre I actually thought that prompt was too easy. But I’m also sure I’m one of the types of people that drives dalex bonkers! 🙃For that prompt I did Charlaine Harris’ Gunnie Rose series which is western and fantasy. But I think historical fiction/romance counts, fantasy/mystery, etc. I did try to stay away from classifying YA as a genre, otherwise it seemed too easy.
@Nadine Will definitely watch out for all the cheekbones xD @Amy, I completely agree with you. I love ownvoices and how now, if they were to publish a fictional diary of a young, say, Harriet Tubman, a black author would (most likely) write it, but I do think it can sometimes be quite exclusionary in a number of ways.
I don't know a whole lot about the American Dirt controversy but I remember being puzzled because the author's grandmother was Puerto Rican, and I started wondering if there's a certain percentage of a race we have to be to be considered a member of that community. Funnily enough, I haven't seen any controversy over the author of The City of Brass, who states on her website that she is a "white convert to Islam" and relies on the anonymity of initials (her first name is Shannon) and her husband's last name to appear to be an own-voices author. No hate towards her, just found it interesting how many BIPOC author lists I saw her on despite her publicly stating that she's white.
I didn't know where else to go with genre suggestions, so I reviewed the ones used since ATY52 started. I didn't write down the genres listed, so this may not be completely accurate, but it seems that we have done most of the main genres at least once (I believe I counted historical fiction 4 times!). The only thing I didn't see that we've done is Western. At first thought this doesn't interest me, but I know that I very much enjoyed Centennial by James A. Michener (historical saga of Colorado), and Little Big Man by Thomas Berger (old white man telling his exploits of being raised by the Cheyenne, fighting with Custer, meeting many colorful western "celebrities").
Another idea (not a genre idea) would be "a book set in a workplace". Could be anything from a farm, a corporate office, a restaurant, a courtroom, a retail store, a hospital (from the employees point of view, not the patient's). Anything were work relationships might be explored rather than friend/family relationships.
Jumping in here - having skipped some pages - On the topic of diversity, we have Pride and good geographic diversity. I agree with the rationale for Female Sci-fi-fantasy authors, but otherwise I don't see the need for prompts favoring female authors.
Is there a prompt on the table regarding Native Americans or Indigenous Peoples, or BIPOC (Black Indigenous Persons of Color)? People have commented on indigenous peoples all summer, and persons of color would include people of Asian descent.
IDEA:
Read a book that involves BIPOC characters or themes.
This could apply to black, indigenous, Asian, etc.
OR
Read a book from the BIPOC genre.
https://www.goodreads.com/genres/bipoc
BIPOC isn't a traditional genre, but goodreads has a genre page for it, and there are 16000 books identified.
dalex wrote: "I love genre mashups but I dislike it as a prompt because people do it wrong. Historical mystery is a subgenre of both historical fiction and mystery, it is not a mashup. A true mashup is something..."I liked this prompt in theory and I think I voted for it, but when it came time to pick a book, I regretted it, because I also kept questioning if each book was "enough" of a mash-up. Like is historical romance just a really popular subgenre of romance or does it count as a mashup? I was trying to look for a book with two very different genres that are much more rarely found together.
I love the "unusual or quirky title" suggestion mentioned earlier, and I would vote for the "set in a workplace" and any Indigenous or BIPOC suggestions.
Genres - keeping it simpleRead a Science-fiction or fantasy book
Read a book that you consider a thriller
Read a book shelved as literary fiction
Read a non-fiction book
Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Dubhease, I had that issue with the book I chose for the Latin American author as well. She was born and raised in Mexico, but the entire book features white upper class characters in..."I agree that there is a need for this. When I picked a book for Asian Author I specifically looked for someone born in Asia. A different wording would have directed me to immigrants or descendants.
Read a book shelved as Asian-American
https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/...
https://www.goodreads.com/genres/asia...
EDIT - This is better, with a much better genre page
Read a book shelved as Asian literature
Read a book written by someone of Asian descent
https://www.goodreads.com/genres/asia...
As long as a book is on this list, no one will have to read an author's bio or examine their picture to ask if it fits.
Read a book about someone of Asian descent
Read a book about an Asian immigrant
Read a book involving Asian or Indian immigrants
Read a book about an Asian-American, or Asian British character.
Read a book that involves Racism against people of Asian descent
Read a book about the Asian or Indian Diaspora
Read a book about an immigrant family
Read a book about immigration
https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/...
Judy wrote: "Genres - keeping it simpleRead a Science-fiction or fantasy book
Read a book that you consider a thriller
Read a book shelved as literary fiction
Read a non-fiction book"
yes this is the sort of thing I want: a very simple and specific genre category.
This is better, with a much better genre pageRead a book shelved as Asian Literature =
Read a book written by someone of Asian descent
https://www.goodreads.com/genres/asia...
Judy- I like the list but IMO thriller is already covered by the murder prompt so the others seem more necessary
@Nancy, thanks for the suggestions, a lot of those look great! I'm leaning towards Asian diaspora because I figure "Asian" would include both East Asians and South Asians (incl. Indians) but do you think it'd be better to include "Indian" in there?@Judy, I would love a BIPOC prompt as a separate prompt but it misses the point I made about what I was suggesting about Asian minorities/the Asian diaspora. BIPOC would include anyone of Asian descent, as you said, but would not have the focus on Asian minorities who are the ones suffering the brunt of the wave of Asian hate due to the pandemic. In fact, BIPOC places a focus on black and indigenous authors, so I think the spirit of the prompt you're suggesting is completely different from what mine intended.
Wait, I think I'm confused about some wording: does "of Asian descent" refer to anyone who has Asian ancestry, including, say, a Japanese author who has lived their entire life in Japan? Or does it carry the implication that they are not living in their homelands/Asia anymore?
Alicia wrote: "I know this is just one opinion, but you shouldn’t feel uneasy about seeing a picture of someone and deducing their race. Mainly because EVERY human does this. I identify as black, but look Hispani..."This was harder when we were talking about transgender people, but I agree, the first things we notice about a person is race and gender (according to social scientists) . Still it's a lot easier when there is a handy list you can refer to.
Judy wrote: "Jumping in here - having skipped some pages - On the topic of diversity, we have Pride and good geographic diversity. I agree with the rationale for Female Sci-fi-fantasy authors, but otherwise I..."
I'm good with either one. I like tag lists and genre pages, but I don't know how other people feel about them. The genre page does have listopias attached. I wanted an Indigenous prompt, but this is broader and more likely to get in.
Read a book that involves BIPOC characters or themes.
This could apply to black, indigenous, Asian, etc.
OR
Read a book from the BIPOC genre.
https://www.goodreads.com/genres/bipoc
Irene wrote: "Wait, I think I'm confused about some wording: does "of Asian descent" refer to anyone who has Asian ancestry, including, say, a Japanese author who has lived their entire life in Japan? Or does it..."I think we would be more likely to say Asian for someone who has always lived in Asia. 'Asian Descent was just a shorter way to say "Asian-American or British-Asian" I just read that in Britain, British-Asian refers to people from the Indian diaspora. In the US, I think it's more likely to be used for someone with East Asian ancestry.
What sounds better?
I don’t like Asian American because that stops Brit’s like myself tapping in to our own rich Asian culture I think Asian decent should be clear enough
I think Asian diaspora covers the idea without limiting it to America or the UK.
Yes, I think for that reason I prefer Asian diaspora because I definitely want it to include Asians in the UK (incl. East Asians and South Asians), Canada, and everywhere else in the world. I think I read somewhere that "Asian" in the U.S. makes people think of East Asians first and we specify if we're talking about, say, Southeastern Asians, but because of the large Indian population in the U.K. it's the other way around and they have to specify East Asian if they aren't talking about someone of South Asian descent.
Irene wrote: "@Nancy, thanks for the suggestions, a lot of those look great! I'm leaning towards Asian diaspora because I figure "Asian" would include both East Asians and South Asians (incl. Indians) but do you..."I agree they should be separate, because people might not realize that Asians can be categorized as 'Persons of color.'
Can you post your Asian prompt this week? I can wait a week to propose a BIPOC related prompt. They might split the vote.
Was anyone else working on a race related prompt? If so, can we coordinate? I plan to suggest a BIPOC prompt in poll 16, so that Irene can propose an Asian related prompt in Poll 15.
Thomas wrote: "Judy- I like the list but IMO thriller is already covered by the murder prompt so the others seem more necessary"Thanks I forgot about that.
Nadine in NY wrote: "Judy wrote: "Genres - keeping it simpleRead a Science-fiction or fantasy book
Read a book that you consider a thriller
Read a book shelved as literary fiction
Read a non-fiction book"
Thanks Nadine. Do you have a preference? I want to submit a genre prompt this week.
SFF
Literary Fantasy
Non-fiction
(thriller is too similar to the murder prompt)
Thanks Judy, I'd love to go ahead and suggest it if I'm available at the time suggestions open up.
Ellie wrote: "My reading origin story involves Meg and Mog, though childhood memories being what they are I don't really know if this is true, but it's what I tell people. That's easily identifiab..."The Betsy-Tacy books were the first books that were special to me when I was 7-8 and I could walk to the library by myself. They might be like your Meg and Mog, memorable, but there were probably different books each year.
Ellie, I think you read a lot of books that I consider literary fiction. I see your reviews a lot. Would you vote for a Literary fiction prompt?
I was going to submit my genre prompt (that Tracy helped word) of“read a book from the genre that inspired, or rekindled, your love of reading”
Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Dubhease, I had that issue with the book I chose for the Latin American author as well. She was born and raised in Mexico, but the entire book features white upper class characters in..."I think she'd be happy you're reading her books. My niece is mixed race (her grandparents are 3 different races). I want to get her ("own-voices") books with characters that look like her, but it's just as important to show her authors that are like her. I think it's just as empowering to see a black author writing about whatever she wants.
dalex wrote: "I love genre mashups but I dislike it as a prompt because people do it wrong. Historical mystery is a subgenre of both historical fiction and mystery, it is not a mashup. A true mashup is something..."I think this is why people get nervous about certain prompts. Even if we all say you can interpret it the way you want, someone else is saying or thinking- "no, you're doing it wrong"
Nadine in NY wrote: "Irene wrote: "@Nadine, I own that book and was hoping to read it at some point next year! That discussion of Chinese-American identity sounds super interesting."I think it might be even more me..."
It's funny how authors get caught up with specific descriptions.
I read a short story recently with references to "sharp" cheekbones. The last Diana Gabaldon book I read must have had 50 references to all the red and gold colors in Jamie's (or Brianna's) hair. That was almost as off-putting as the excessive number of rape scenes. I used to love the series, and I can't pick up the next book.
Mod
I liked the genre with the letter from your name. I like genre prompts that are flexible I hate "Read x genre" as either I have no interest in it or it's a freebie, I liked how the genre with my letter led me to genres I had never thought of (I did Paranormal Romance).
Mod
You have a T! I'm PF.... there is Penelope Fitzgerald but I'm already planning on readying her for another prompt. Otherwise, per the wikipedia author page, lots of obscure writers.
Can someone explain why a trope is something you would want? I thought a trope is something that is overused, or trite, like a cliche'. I remember learning that you should avoid them in your writing. I'm not a writer, so maybe I'm wrong.
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