Week 6 — The Lighthouse, Sections 7-13, and the book as a whole

[Susan]

Lily continues to paint while thinking about Mr and Mrs Ramsay. From time to time, she checks on the progress of the sailboat. The wind drops, and James thinks about his father past and present and his mother. The wind picks up, and Cam tells herself stories and mentally argues with James. Lily reviews her picture, sits on the lawn, and makes a mountain for the ants. The Ramsays eat their sandwiches, Mr Ramsay praises James, and they land at the Lighthouse with the parcels for the men. Mr Carmichael gets up from his chair, and Lily finishes her picture.

Some Questions to Start:

1) Is the lighthouse a symbol? What does it represent?

2) There are two breaks in the forward movement of the characters here. The wind falls, and the sailboat literally stops moving. (Section 8). And, Lily feels there is something wrong with her painting. “What was the problem then? She must try to get hold of something that evaded her.” (Section 9). The wind returns, and the sailboat begins moving again, but what is the solution to Lily’s problem that lets her complete her painting?

3) As we finish the book, there’s one character we haven’t discussed, the philosopher/poet Mr. Carmichael. We only see him through others’ eyes, never through his own thoughts. What is his role in the book?

Info/Links:

In “The Lighthouse,” Mr Ramsay quotes from “The Castaway,” a poem by William Cowper about a drowning sailor. Mr Ramsay seems to favor the line, “We perished each alone”. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...


List of Characters — The Lighthouse

The Ramsay Family
—Mr Ramsay, a philosopher, 71 years old
—Mrs Ramsay, died before the War
—Rose
—Prue, the Fair, died before the War
—Andrew, the Just, died in the War
—Jasper
—Roger
—Nancy
—Cam, the Wicked, the youngest daughter, 17 years old
—James, the Ruthless, the youngest, 16 years old

Guests of the Ramsays
—Lily Briscoe, paints, 44 years old
—Augustus Carmichael, a successful poet, 70+ years old
—Mrs Beckwith, kind old lady who sketches

Others
—Charles Tansley, a former protege of Mr Ramsay
—William Bankes, a botanist, an old friend of Mr Ramsay, 70+ years old
—Minta and Paul Rayley, married at Mrs Ramsay’s instigation
—Old Macalister, boatman, 75 years old
—Macalister’s boy, boatman

[Tamara]

Susan wrote: "Is the lighthouse a symbol? What does it represent?.."

I think for James it seems to represent some sort of reconciliation with his father. As a child, he competed with his father for his mother's attention. He has a lot of anger and hostility toward his father, fantasizing about stabbing him with a knife. But then it seems he becomes like his father:

"We are driving below a gale--we must sink," he began saying to himself, half aloud, exactly as his father said it."

And as they reach the lighthouse and his father praises him, all his hostility dissolves. Cam recognizes he wanted his father's praise all along. So I guess the lighthouse here represents some sort of reconciliation between James and his father.

[Tamara]

I think it's interesting that James needs validation from his father and his father obliges. It's a reversal of an earlier scene with Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay where Mr. Ramsay wants validation from Mrs. Ramsay. He wants her to tell him she loves him, and she refuses to oblige.

[Mike]

I feel like the lighthouse could represent how people deal with and over come change/the past together. Likewise I feel that the painting could represent how one can deal with change by oneself.

[Roger]

Mr. Ransay is supposed to be an esteemed philosopher, but we don't get inside his head for any philosophical thoughts. Why does he think he's dragging his sullen teenagers off to the lighthouse?

[Sam]

In the very last paragraph, Lily has an epiphany and adds one vertical stroke to the painting. It is finished. Why? That stroke is The Lighthouse, which puts the whole composition into perspective. Now we can see the entire novel as bracketed by the lighthouse. It opens with the desire to go there, it is an abstraction. In the end, The lighthouse becomes concrete, by both the arrival there and Lily's brushstroke. The painting is complete, the novel complete. That is what the novel is about, it is a painting of a space over time, a vision and a"reality".

[Borum]

Tamara wrote: "Susan wrote: "Is the lighthouse a symbol? What does it represent?.."

I think for James it seems to represent some sort of reconciliation with his father. As a child, he competed with his father fo..."

I think James is also displaying signs of tyranny against Cam as his father did to his mother. Cam, on the other hand, seems to be showing her mother's soft side towards her father. A Freudian would even have described James and Cam's attitude towards their parents as Oedipal or Electra complex. She seems to be 'attracted' to her father and feel 'safe' 'For no one attracted her more; his hands were beautiful...
In the end of section X, Cam's murmur echoing her father's words seem to show how her silent pact with James against her father is forsaken and how they are left to each one's own fight. 'how we perished, each alone' This might also be an echo of how Lily and Mrs Ramsay feel each other's pain but leaves each other on their own to fight their own cause (whether in art or in marital life).

It might also be a reflection of how Lily reflected that 'so much depends upon distance' and how 'this was one way of knowing people ... to know the outline, not the detail' Even Lily had reservations and parts of what she didn't fully understand about Mrs. Ramsay. Like Mr Carmichael, Lily felt that Mrs. Ramsay's instinctive straightforwardness and action was a reproach to their prepossession of the 'supremacy of thought' Mr Carmichael and Lily, both artists in words and paint and both a little impersonal in their interaction with other people, might have felt irked by her way of actually getting involved in the reality of other people's businesses.

As she remarked on Charles Tansley, half one's notions of other people were, after all, grotesque. They served private purposes of one's own. (...) If she wanted to be serious about him she had to help herself to Mrs. Ramsay's sayings, to look at him through her eyes. (...) One wanted fifty pairs of eyes to see with (...) Fifty pairs of eyes were not enough to get round that one woman with.
We see glimpses of how she might have went through with her marriage. I felt sad when she looked at Prue as if to promise her that she would be happy, but would she have had a happy marriage even if it lasted longer? or would it have gone down the same path as her parents or Paul and Minta?

This is followed by this: She let her flowers fall from her basket, scattered and tumbled them on to the grass and, reluctantly and hesitatingly, but without question or complaint - had she not the faculty of obedience to perfection? - went too. (...) Mrs. Ramsay walking rather fast in front, as if she expected to meet some one round the corner.'

Had she let her flowers and questions and complaints drop one by one as she went on through her life with her husband? Was she 'expecting to meet some one round the corner'? I don't know why, but this scene was so sad and hopeless that I could understand how Lily cried "Mrs. Ramsay! Mrs. Ramsay!" even though it was too late.

[Gary]

I felt suspense building in my read of the final sections of the novel. The Ramseys and Macalisters are sailing in an open boat to the lighthouse some miles off shore. A sixteen year old at the tiller, the wind shifting, a hinge creaking in the breeze, the surf rising, all gave me me pause. Was something going to go badly wrong? Bad things do happen after all. But the novel ended as I always felt it should/must, quietly and open-endedly. No cheap surprise ending or sensationalism here. Thank goodness.

[Thomas]

Susan wrote: "1) Is the lighthouse a symbol? What does it represent?
"

There is an interesting passage in chapter 12 where Cam is thinking about her father:

This is right, this is it, Cam kept feeling, as she peeled her hard-boiled egg. Now she felt as she did in the study when the old men were reading The Times. Now I can go on thinking whatever I like, and I shan't fall over a precipice or be drowned, for there he is, keeping an eye on me, she thought.

After this she daydreams a story about escaping a shipwreck, and then the Macalisters point out that they are sailing over a spot where a ship was sunk and men drowned.

The way that Cam describes Mr. Ramsay is like a lighthouse, a symbol of protection (or knowledge?) The novel is premised on a trip to this lighthouse and how it was delayed. I wonder at the end if Cam and James see their father in light of the lighthouse. Difficult to reach, essentially lonely and stolid, but stable and long-sighted. He couldn't protect Mrs. Ramsay, just as the lighthouse can't protect the sailors who drowned, but he is faithful to her memory and to his children, even if he can't express that faith very well.

[Susan]

Tamara wrote: "Susan wrote: "Is the lighthouse a symbol? What does it represent?.."

I think for James it seems to represent some sort of reconciliation with his father. As a child, he competed with his father fo..."

It certainly does seem that James recognizes and acknowledges something alike in himself and his father even before his father praises him. Whether the reconciliation is temporary or permanent, James seems to move toward his father. I think I’d see it as temporary, at least for this time in James’ life, given the force of his anger. And is Mr Ramsay even aware of this reconciliation?

[Susan]

Roger wrote: "Mr. Ransay is supposed to be an esteemed philosopher, but we don't get inside his head for any philosophical thoughts. Why does he think he's dragging his sullen teenagers off to the lighthouse?"

You’re right, we don’t get much of Mr Ramsay’s point of view in “The Lighthouse.” His philosophic thinking is presented in “The Window,” (Section 6 and 8), but not here. Here the focus is more on James’ and Cam’s reactions to their father, less on what he is thinking.

Why does he take his two children to the Lighthouse? What Mr Ramsay says to Lily is “he had a particular reason for wanting to go to the Lighthouse. His wife used to send the men things. There was a poor boy with a tuberculous hip, the lightkeeper’s son.” And he adds, “Such expeditions…are very painful.” So, the trip seems to be a tribute to Mrs Ramsay’s memory. Perhaps also it’s due to a memory of their disagreement over the planned trip 10 years before and a sense of guilt on his part.

[Susan]

Borum wrote: I felt sad when she looked at Prue as if to promise her that she would be happy, but would she have had a happy marriage even if it lasted longer? or would it have gone down the same path as her parents or Paul and Minta?

This is followed by this: She let her flowers fall from her basket, scattered and tumbled them on to the grass and, reluctantly and hesitatingly, but without question or complaint - had she not the faculty of obedience to perfection? - went too. (...) Mrs. Ramsay walking rather fast in front, as if she expected to meet some one round the corner.'

Had she let her flowers and questions and complaints drop one by one as she went on through her life with her husband? Was she 'expecting to meet some one round the corner'? “

Given the description of Prue’s experience of her parents’ marriage —“How Prue must have blamed herself for that earwig in the milk! How white she had gone when Mr Ramsay threw his plate through the window! How she drooped under those long silences between them [Mr and Mrs Ramsay]! “ — how can we understand Mrs Ramsay’s promise to Prue, however sincere, “that one of these days that same happiness would be hers” except ironically? As you point out, Prue’s marriage might have been no happier than her parents’ or the Rayleys’.

I believe the image of dropping the flowers from the basket relates to Prue and her death, in a companion image to the one Lily has of Mrs Ramsay : “For days after she had heard of her death she had seen her thus, putting her wreath [of white flowers] to her forehead and going unquestioning with her companion, a shade across the fields.” (Section 7) For me, the image of the wreath Mrs Ramsay wears is an image of completion, while the image of Prue’s dropped basket is one of accepted incompletion.

And does the ghost of Mrs Ramsay expect to meet ”some one round the corner?” And who would it be? I don’t know that we get an answer, although it is implied in several places that there is some mystery in Mrs Ramsay’s life.

[Susan]

Borum wrote: It might also be a reflection of how Lily reflected that 'so much depends upon distance' and how 'this was one way of knowing people ... to know the outline, not the detail' Even Lily had reservations and parts of what she didn't fully understand about Mrs. Ramsay. Like Mr Carmichael, Lily felt that Mrs. Ramsay's instinctive straightforwardness and action was a reproach to their prepossession of the 'supremacy of thought' Mr Carmichael and Lily, both artists in words and paint and both a little impersonal in their interaction with other people, might have felt irked by her way of actually getting involved in the reality of other people's businesses. ..."

Good point. Mrs Ramsay somehow got involved in Mr Carmichael’s unhappy marriage, and she blamed his wife for his distrust of her (“The Window, Section 8). And we know Mrs Ramsay urged Lily to marry, too. So Mrs Ramsay certainly got involved in their business.

[Susan]

Gary wrote: "I felt suspense building in my read of the final sections of the novel. The Ramseys and Macalisters are sailing in an open boat to the lighthouse some miles off shore. A sixteen year old at the til..."

As you and Thomas both point out, there is some risk involved in their trip to the lighthouse in a small sailboat on what can apparently be tricky waters. Good thing they have a nice day for it ;).

James’ complaint in Section 4 that he “would be forced to keep his eye all the time on the sail. For if he forgot, then the sail puckered and shivered, and the boat slackened, and Mr Ramsay woukd say sharply, “Look out! Look out!” reminds me of a teenager learning to drive a car with their anxious parent.

[Susan]

Thomas wrote: "I wonder at the end if Cam and James see their father in light of the lighthouse. Difficult to reach, essentially lonely and stolid, but stable and long-sighted. He couldn't protect Mrs. Ramsay, just as the lighthouse can't protect the sailors who drowned, but he is faithful to her memory and to his children, even if he can't express that faith very well. ..."

Interesting theory! I’ve found myself thinking a lot about Cam as a character this week. She doesn’t really emerge until “The Lighthouse”.

[Susan]

Some wonderful ideas in this week’s discussion about the symbolism of the lighthouse. Woolf deliberately left this question open and up to each individual to decide.

[Susan]

I’ve been thinking about the character of Cam this week. She is the last member of the Ramsay family introduced in “The Window”, and we don’t directly experience her point of view in that section. We see her younger brother enjoying his mother’s attention, and Mrs Ramsay first calling Cam in to run an errand for her while James sits in her lap. When Cam later shows signs of wanting to hear the story that’s being read, Mrs Ramsay isn’t very welcoming. “Come in or go out, Cam,” she said, knowing that Cam was attracted only by the word “Flounder” and that in a moment she would fidget and fight with James as usual. Cam shot off. Mrs Ramsay went on reading relieved, for she and James shared the same tastes and were comfortable together.”

Interestingly enough, in “The Lighthouse,” James spends some time on his memories of his mother (Section 8), but all that shows up in Cam’s thoughts is some remembered but unattributed phrases of Mrs Ramsay’s when Cam is looking into the water : “It was a hanging garden; it was a valley, full of birds, and flowers, and antelopes” (Section 12), which echoes Mrs Ramsay’s words earlier as she lulled her daughter to sleep “with valleys and flowers and bells ringing and birds singing and little goats and antelopes” (“The Window” Section 18)

But her father also seems to have a limited view of his daughter. There was no thought apparently of Cam sailing the boat for instance. And we have Mr Ramsay’s riff on female vagueness and inability to keep anything clear in their minds. While Cam seems drawn to his world of books and thought, it seems his conceptions would be a barrier to his full acceptance of her interests in that area.

[Susan]

Sam wrote: "In the very last paragraph, Lily has an epiphany and adds one vertical stroke to the painting. It is finished. Why? That stroke is The Lighthouse, which puts the whole composition into perspective...."

I’ve always thought that final stroke was Mrs Ramsay’s missing shadow, but your theory nicely unifies the two separate endings, with the Ramsays landing at the lighthouse and Lily finishing her painting with the lighthouse.

[Roger]

If Mr. Ramsay sails to the lighthouse in honor of his late wife, why does he spend the voyage reading a book?

[Susan]

Mike wrote: "I feel like the lighthouse could represent how people deal with and over come change/the past together. Likewise I feel that the painting could represent how one can deal with change by oneself."

Perhaps it’s the boat moving forward over the water, perhaps it’s Lily making progress on her painting, but “The Lighthouse” section seems dynamic. Maybe part of that is a sense of the younger generation beginning to mature.

[Susan]

Roger wrote: "If Mr. Ramsay sails to the lighthouse in honor of his late wife, why does he spend the voyage reading a book?"

Hmm. Maybe the effort of organizing the expedition and shepherding his reluctant teenaged children to the boat has tired him out? Or perhaps he’s a little bored on the long trip? BTW, I’d guess that every time he quotes the Cowper poem, he is thinking about Mrs Ramsay, albeit in a somewhat egotistical way.

[Thomas]

Roger wrote: "If Mr. Ramsay sails to the lighthouse in honor of his late wife, why does he spend the voyage reading a book?"

Emotional distance seems to be the hallmark of Mr. Ramsay, and in a way, of the whole book. It seems perfectly in character that he should try to distract himself while he is fulfilling this obligation. His kids are ready to give him anything, as Cam reveals in the last page, but he wants nothing but to have it all over with. I don't know what happened to Mr. Ramsay, but he's a sad character.

[Gary]

I have for a long time been afraid of Virginia Woolf. Thanks to this group, the experience of reading To the Lighthouse stirred me. I have been moved by Woolf's literary genius, her deep understanding, and her intellect. I will read more.

[Gary]

Speaking for myself, but also I expect for others, I want to thank Susan for guiding us through this challenging book. Her insightful comments, and her thoughtful follow-ups to others' comments, added much to the discussion. I would add that the character of the overall discussion was first-rate. Thank you all.

[Tamara]

I read the novel many years ago but was probably too focused on trying to figure out what happens next or too stressed out about upcoming exams, or too something else to fully appreciate it. I just didn’t “get” the novel. Reading the novel this time around has been a whole new experience.

This is a great novel. It is a challenging novel. It lacks a conventional plot since most of the “action” takes place internally. But it is a novel I will go back to again and again because of the brilliance and beauty of its language and technique.

I want to echo Gary’s sentiments and say thank you to all who made this such a rewarding discussion. And a heartfelt thank you to Susan for doing such an incredible job of steering the ship to its harbor with her insights, comments, and responses. It is through her guidance and through the quality of the discussion that I can appreciate the novel for what it is—a work that captures in luminous language the fragility of human existence. I don’t say this of too many books I read, but in this case, I think my feeling is warranted: for me, reading Virginia Woolf’s To the Lighthouse is what it must feel like to swallow a thunderstorm. It is expansive.

Thank you, Susan. And thank you, all.

[Roger]

If I were forced to read this book again, I would not be too dismayed.

[Tamara]

Roger wrote: "If I were forced to read this book again, I would not be too dismayed."

That's high praise coming from you, Roger. I'm sure Virginia must be smiling in her grave :)

[Susan]

Thanks to all for a lively and thoughtful discussion of this challenging book. I’ve read To the Lighthouse before, but the discussion and the excellent questions/observations brought up so many new points that enriched and deepened my understanding and appreciation. Thanks for the kind words, Gary and Tamara, and thanks to Tamara, David, and Thomas for their help and support.