Seven Types of Ambiguity - Part Two

[Ami]

E :) wrote: "Ami wrote: "Anna hasn't felt the need to have sex with her husband in quite some time. When he's initiated it, in one particular instance, she tells him what he's doing is comparable to "rape..." W…"

So far, we're only hearing about the marriage from Joe's perspective.
Absolutely, but I'm not under the impression to think Joe's POV was the end all, be all...For the sake of this thread, however, I did base everything on his POV.


I have the suspicion that he's missing many clues from Anna.
I am irritating her. Again. I can sense it. Without even seeing her face I can sense it. Over time I have learned to register the signals. It is there in the slow exhale of sulfurous breath in the morning...or else in the way she turns away to one side. It is there in the way she stays and stays on the same page of a book or a magazine, pretending to be reading. Anyone could do this but not he way she does it. I cannot prove it, but there is no need to prove it anymore......She says this and somehow manages to cover each word with a semipermeable vicious membrane of bitterness...When I bring the tea back to the bedroom she says nothing and does not look at me...I get back into bed and begin to sip mine. This draws attention. She looks at me for the first time this morning. How can she possibly blame me for all of this? She can't, but a wave of contempt splashes across her face for an instant (53-56). He seems to notice quite a bit about her, I think? He doesn’t remember when or why she checked out of their relationship completely, but Simon says the same thing in regards to Anna leaving him…Didn’t she just up and leave Simon without any notice?

If he questions anything about her, it would be What day, what time, did I become so hateful, so contemptible, but even to his questions he poses possible answers such as Is it familiarity that bred her contempt, and precisely did she go from sublime excitement to comfort tot boredom to contempt... (57)?

From what Joe's shared, his attempts at intimacy consist of suggestions of golden showers and "good morning" c**k.
It was one suggestion for a golden shower, and as you say "good morning" c**k which there seems to be a precedence (meaning she's allowed this in the past) set between the two...In reference to her "silky white" negligee? "riding up..." There was a time when this would happen, and quickly aroused, I would pull them down and be inside her before she had a chance to fully awaken (54).

She doesn't even appreciate a cup of tea from him, how well do you think an intimate dinner is going to go over? What happened between them that fateful morning, again, a fault on both sides, was completely carnal on Joe's part...He is at his wits end with her. She doesn't seem to be giving him an inch according to his POV.

In the early morning sex scene, Joe is inside Anna before she even wakes. He's not suggesting sex and waiting for a response; it's not a choice they make together. He's entering her without her consent.
No, he's really not inside her before she wakes. If you consider making eye contact with your spouse, or whomever, as affirmation to being conscious, then it happened while she was awake ..she looked over her shoulder into my eyes as I entered (54). No she didn't consent to it, but they've done it before whenever it was ...Times are different, and he's probably beyond taking her stagnant mood into consideration.

I wouldn't go so far as calling this "rape", but I still think it's harsh to write Anna off based on the first words out of her mouth in the morning.
Well this is the gray area I was referring to. I think in order for it be considered rape, there has to be some force (not necessarily violent ) involved, it's not just based on the consent of two married, or cohabiting adults...I think this is the way it works? Marital rape is pretty common, actually, it’s just very hard to prove. Anna comes off as an angry, bitter, frigid, ice queen, in this POV, it doesn’t mean she really is. As for Joe’s POV, and Joe’s POV only I consider her to be reflecting these characteristics. I understand there are other factors at stake, her POV, specifically...I'm looking forward to it.

Perhaps she's not a morning person; perhaps she's waking up to something painful; perhaps her husband should already know this isn't her cup of tea.
Boy, you really like hypotheticals…I don't think this is the case, according to him. He mentions how he used to initiate sex with her in the morning, this leads me to believe they did this often…Again, a precedence for morning sex.

My point was not that I personally pass judgement on the "piss on me" request. My point is that she "goes there" because she is shaming Joe.
In regards to Anna and Anna only, if "she" considers it to be disgusting, I don’t know? I only know she was “horrified” by his request. And by “horrified” I don’t know if it pertains to being “disgusted” with the act, or just shocked because he would ask that of her in her state of clearly not wanting to be with him any which way. I can’t read anything beyond her anger, it’s hard for me to assess it properly.


If the act were not generally considered to be disgusting / embarrassing / or etc, then why would her question shame him?
Because he's vulnerable, she's kicked him while he's down. Is anybody even thinking how uncomfortable he may have been approaching "her?" In the same respect, maybe he's done the same to her (kicked her while she is down). She may be trying to shame him, but it doesn't mean that he "is" shamed by her. Anna's attempt at holding him in contempt for one more thing, for a request from a husband made to his wife and "no other," is her way of dealing with the situation. It doesn't mean she was successful at it. You can't make anybody feel any one way for something unless they too already feel this way about themselves. Joe went on with his life "sleeping with whores,” it doesn’t look like he was shamed. I'm not lying when I say, to me, it has nothing to do with the act, it has more to do with the reasoning behind the request.

From Joe's perspective, this is what we're to think. I'm wondering how much of this is real and how much of this is due to Joe projecting his insecurities.
This is a great point. Does it make it any less real because it stems from his insecurities...It's still his truth, it's the way he sees it. I guess we'll see, hopefully. :)

P.S. I LOVE Dave Chappelle...SO funny.

[Jess :)]

Ami wrote: "E :) wrote: "Ami wrote: "Anna hasn't felt the need to have sex with her husband in quite some time. When he's initiated it, in one particular instance, she tells him what he's doing is comparable t..."

At this point I'm giving Anna the benefit of the doubt I think more than you are. To me, Joe seems far too insecure to have a healthy relationship. I don't trust his assessments.

It will definitely be interesting to hear Anna's POV!

But as for Joe: I'm not sure why, in the morning after their son's kidnapping, in the morning after Anna found out about him seeing a prostitute, why is he expecting so much from Anna? On this traumatic day, he's analyzing the way that she sips her tea. And of course it's all about him. :p

The fact that he is analyzing Anna's actions -- and I do think he is likely projecting insecurities here --- does not mean that he is perceptive.

And why should we be expecting so much of Anna in that moment? I don't think we should conclude that she wouldn't have responded well to an intimate dinner under more normal circumstances.

You're saying that I'm stringing on hypotheticals. I don't see that as a problem. I identify more with Anna and am giving her the benefit of the doubt. From Joe's narrative, we know that he's severely insecure. For example, when he's at the cafe, where I'm sure nobody gives a flip about his sex life, he's analyzing how others respond to him and preoccupied with thinking "they know I pay for it." Based on interactions in a shopping mall, he concludes that Anna has "found him out." Sorry, I just don't find myself trusting this man's assessments.

I want to hear the other side!

[Ami]

E :) wrote: "Ami wrote: "E :) wrote: "Ami wrote: "Anna hasn't felt the need to have sex with her husband in quite some time. When he's initiated it, in one particular instance, she tells him what he's doing is ..."

You're saying that I'm stringing on hypotheticals. I don't see that as a problem.
I didn't see it as a problem either. I should have placed a smiling face at the end of the sentence, I apologize. :)

I can tell you identify with her, and I do not "as much," as of yet...And I think it's great for discussion purposes. I don't know how many members are taking part in this read, but we have our very own "Seven Types of Ambiguity" going on for ourselves, don't you think?

I'm not sure why, in the morning after their son's kidnapping, in the morning after Anna found out about him seeing a prostitute, why is he expecting so much from Anna?
I missed this very important detail as far as the timing of their "pseudo-rape/rape/not rape" episode. For some reason, I honed in on the distance between husband and wife before the abduction and transposed its effect on the present situation; I'll admit, I failed to realize it was "the day after," yet it still doesn't affect my outlook on their situation, so far. For one thing, I don't have any expectations for Anna; to me, she's just so apathetic since the passing of their first son and Joe seems completely disoriented. They almost lost another son, I would think he wanted to have sex with his wife to feel some closeness in the aftermath of that possible loss. I can see how grief from loss could equate to wanting intimacy with your spouse. I'm also of the impression sexual proclivities are at an all time high during moments in life where death/loss/tragedy are experienced. Grief affects us all in different ways, some want sex, others obviously want to be left alone.

Sorry, I just don't find myself trusting this man's assessments.
As ass-backwards his approach to validating his existence is, I think he just wants to be recognized by somebody.

I want to hear the other side!
It can't happen fast enough!

[Jess :)]

Ami,

No, I don't think that the sex episode is the morning after. Sorry to be confusing there! I just mean that I'm trying to take her reaction to the tea offer, and I suppose her bitterness /anger that morning in general, in context.

[Sarah]

In the quote that Ami mentioned above when Anna is so angry, I thought at the time that he was just projecting his insecurities on to her. Then I realized that she actually was angry. Angry that her son was kidnapped, angry that her husband was involved with a prostitute, probably angry about the situation with Simon. So is he reading her correctly? Analyzing what someone does on that minute level would be exhausting for both of them I would think. Sure, she's pretending to read. But why does that mean she's angry with him and blaming him for what happened? Like E:) said On this traumatic day, he's analyzing the way that she sips her tea

At this point I'm giving Anna the benefit of the doubt
I'm actually doing the same thing. I'm seeing a woman who's under an extraordinary amount of pressure. Maybe she handles that by withdrawing, I don't know. I think I just disliked Joe so much that I felt compassion for her. Now we'll probably hit her POV and she'll be a dragon lady :)

I don't think we should conclude that she wouldn't have responded well to an intimate dinner under more normal circumstances
I don't think she would at this point because I think they're too far gone. I do think they should have tried that years ago. They seemed to have dealt with the loss of their son in very different ways. And how do you deal with losing your son when your husband is somewhat relieved because the thinks he was going to be like Roger? That's beyond horrible to me.

[Sarah]

From Joe's perspective, this is what we're to think. I'm wondering how much of this is real and how much of this is due to Joe projecting his insecurities.
I also think his perspective is not entirely valid because his insecurities are driving his perceptions.