Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Woolf, To The Lighthouse
>
Week 1 — The Window, Sections 1-7
Thank you for this great introduction, Susan. The list of characters is particularly helpful because it is a bit confusing to keep track of all the people coming in and out.
Susan wrote: "What do you think about Mr and Mrs Ramsay?.."Mr. Ramsay is insensitive, a bit of a bully, and rude. He says “Damn you” to his wife because she disagrees with him about the weather. He has sexist tendencies:
The extraordinary irrationality of her remark, the folly of women’s minds enraged him.
And yet he relies on his wife for emotional support and seeks her out to prop him up when he feels insecure.
Mrs. Ramsay seems to be the glue that holds the family together. She provides emotional support to James and Mr. Ramsay. She shields her husband from the harsh realities of upcoming expenses on the house, suspects his last book was not his best, etc. etc. But she underestimates her worth and contribution:
She was not good enough to tie his shoe strings, she felt.
One word I found a bit jarring is the word “reverence.” We are told,
There was nobody whom she reverenced as she reverenced him. And a few lines later, There was nobody she reverenced more.
I found this to be an odd use of the word “reverence” with its connotations of awe and deep respect, especially since she knows his weaknesses. I can understand her using the word “love” in reference to her feelings about her husband. But why “reverence”? Does this tell us something about Mrs. Ramsay? Does the use of this word indicate the extent to which she is willing to undervalue herself in relation to her husband?
So far, I'm enjoying reading To the Lighthouse. I've previously read many of Virginia Woolf's essays, but never read this novel before.A couple of observations:
-I enjoy the long, flowing sentences, and in particular I enjoy how people's thoughts and people's spoken dialogue are not clearly distinguished from each other. Rather, both thoughts and speech are presented in the middle of running sentences, without any clear visual cues. The effect of this on me is that is blurs the boundaries between thought and speech.
-And who is it that's blurring the boundary between thought and speech? A narrator, perhaps. Thus far in the novel I'm finding it hard to characterize the narrator here. Because the prose is forcefully and stylishly written, I hear the entire narration as a consistent whole, even though it's able to dip into various characters' private thoughts. The narrator might be no different than the author herself; perhaps we'll learn more about that as the novel progresses.
Very interesting point about the narrator. I am interested to see with this style of writing if we ever really get a sense of who the narrator is.I do not have much experience with this style of writing but I find it rather enjoyable so far. Thank you so much for the summary and list of characters, it is really helpful.
I've noticed that all the inner thoughts of the male characters show how they vie and yearn anxiously for the female approval and yet on the surface they try to one-up their female counterpart with some sort of acknowledgement of their superiority, which further betrays their lack of self-confidence. Not only the husband but Tansley, and Bankes are trying to show off how they are more intelligent and manly and rational but are actually dying to feel some pride by 'holding her bag' or seeking their respect and 'reverence'. Even little James seems to contend for his mother's attention with his father and even the little boy in the lighthouse! On the other hand, it seems that Mrs. Ramsay and Lily are just playing along and pretending to be paying attention to their droning self-accolades and their constant need for approval, while they only barely grasp at what they are jabbering about or try to look the other way when they are revealed in their most embarrassingly immature moments, like when Mr. Ramsay is caught playing battle like a little boy.It was astonishing that a man of his intellect could stoop so low as he did - but that was too harsh a praise - could depend so much as he did upon people's praise.
Susan wrote: "Week 1 — The Window, Sections 1-7The story starts on a mid-September evening as we meet Mrs and Mr Ramsay, who are staying in their rented summer house on the Isle of Skye with their eight childr..."
Thank you, Susan for the list of characters and the reference to the poem!
'heroic but disastrous military action', indeed!
It is ironic how Mr. Ramsay, the supposed leader of his family chanting and playing like one of his boys
shouting 'someone has blundered!'
seems to feel offended at Lily and Mr Bankes at intruding his privacy.
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Mrs Ramsay is also a little worried by letting anybody know of her husband's antics but is relieved that it's 'only Lily' and is 'not dismayed' and casually goes on without 'making any reply or reasoning why'.
The poem's last lines also ironically reflect on how Mr. Bankes and Mr. Ramsay recollect their own bygone heydays with both pride and sorrow, feeling 'aged and saddened' by having 'dried and shrunk'.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
The author doesn't explain all the images that come up with the flow of consciousness. For example the Swiss girl weeping for her father is only revealed some pages later as Marie the maid. We are given a glimpse but no explanation as if the disparate sensations (images and sounds and smells of bats and beetles and weeping and seaweed) is intermingled in the sunlit attic to form a more complete and multifaceted picture like the author does by reflecting on the various character's perspectives. It also reminded me of how we don't necessarily think of 'important' or 'relevant' stuff all the time. Sometimes things just pop up out of the blue without reference to any of the subject matter at hand. However somehow it might be connected with something else we had in our subconscious mind but haven't been revealed yet. For example, the pale elegant pictures of Mr. Paunceforte is referred again with Lily's paintings as a contrast to show her independent style and courage to express her own vision, although at first we don't really notice it from Mrs. Ramsay's view. She only remarks how it's different from how her grandmother's friends painted.
By the way I found it quite touching how Woolf accentuates Marie's sadness and loneliness by the simple and contrasting words 'At home the mountains are so beautiful'and the image of the bird wings folding themselves quietly about her. 'She had stood there silent for there was nothing to be said.'
It is odd that so much is spoken in that silence and the simple words that seem to have no reference to her father's death, whereas all the long abstract words seem to point to something as absurd as a kitchen table.
While the male characters are all about their own ego, Mrs. Ramsay's mind seems to constantly jump to whom she can help or what needs fixing. She is aware and more interested in how the people at the lighthouse lives and how Tansley feels awkward about his isolation and poverty or how Marie feels and how Lily's true gift is unappreciated.While the men's thoughts are self-centered, Mrs. Ramsay's thoughts are expansive and her concerns expand all about her and when her thoughts briefly rise above the waves and noise of her busy life, she is even aware of the natural world and the ephemeral nature of it.
Lily is also in love with all the family and life and she is aware of both the ups and downs of Mr. Ramsay and Mr. Bankes, like Mrs Ramsay is both sympathetic and unsympathetic sides of Mr. Ramsay and Mr. Tansley. The downpour of the 'avalanche of all she felt about him' is balanced by the rise 'of the essence of his being' but it's not as if it reaches a steady equilibrium in the end but rather like a 'company of gnats, each separate, but all marvelously controlled in an invisible elastic net' in a constantly 'dancing up and down' motion. In our subconsciousness, our attitudes or emotions are judgements and the words attached to them are constantly changing by degrees or even flipping from moment to moment. However, through that struggle of contradictory movements an 'illusion' of equilibrium is achieved and reflected in our consciousness and again shown through our words which are so stable and static compared to the underlying storm within. Although the words uttered are so simple and transfixed in time like 'At home the mountains are so beautiful' they hide the deeper tumult of all the past transitory yet everlasting impressions and memories that are struggling underneath the firm, smooth facade, where 'even the fissures and humps' appear firm.
... and the voice was her own voice saying without prompting undeniable, everlasting, contradictory things, so that even the fissures and humps on the bark of the pear tree were irrevocably fixed there for eternity'
This is my third time reading Woolf's To the Lighthouse, and it reveals so much more of its beauty and intensity with each reading. The character that most interests me in the novel is Lily Briscoe. While we haven't spent too much time with Lily in this section as opposed to characters such as Mrs. and Mr. Ramsey, or even Mr. Bankes and Charles Tansley, her consciousness still evokes tremendous aesthetic beauty. Sometimes I think of her as a foil to Mr. Ramsey's intellectual strivings of genius. Lily, to me, is a character who has reached that level of genius that Mr. Ramsey is too blinded by his own self interest to ever reach. A common interpretation of Lily as a character is that she blends the masculine and feminine together. While I do somewhat agree with that analysis, I also see her as a very complex and almost transcendent character in the story as well that goes beyond any form of binary assumptions of gender. Then beneath the colour there was the shape. She could see it all so clearly, so commandingly, when she looked: it was when she took her brush in hand that the whole thing changed. It was in that moment's flight between the picture and her canvas that the demons set on her who often brought her to the verge of tears and made this passage from conception to work as dreadful as any down a dark passage for a child
This passage echos both the Aristotelian philosophy of "Divine Inspiration." Underneath the philosophical is also a deeply personal experience of aesthetics for Lily, where she is oriented towards a self reflexivity or self consciousness towards her own creations, despite possessing that lightning bolt of genius that Mr. Ramsey is driven to take for himself.
I haven't read Auerbach's essay "The Brown Stocking" since my undergraduate Theory class, but I remember it being pretty incredible. Going to give it a second reading after I finish Woolf.
Tamara wrote: "Thank you for this great introduction, Susan. The list of characters is particularly helpful because it is a bit confusing to keep track of all the people coming in and out."Glad the list of characters is helpful, Tamara. We really get dropped into the middle of things here. I was relieved to read that Mr Bankes can’t keep the Ramsay children all straight either ;). “As for being sure which was which, or in what order they came, that was beyond him.”
Tamara wrote: "Susan wrote: "What do you think about Mr and Mrs Ramsay?.."Mr. Ramsay is insensitive, a bit of a bully, and rude. He says “Damn you” to his wife because she disagrees with him about the weather. ..."
Good points. I see some plusses for Mr Ramsay though. For one, Mr Ramsay “is incapable of untruth; never tampered with a fact; never altered a disagreeable word to suit the pleasure or convenience of any mortal being,” and that seems to be, at least in part, why he and Mrs Ramsay are at odds over what to say to James about the trip to the lighthouse. Mrs Ramsay is capable of changing her words to avoid disappointing her little boy for the moment (or to keep silent to avoid an unpleasant conversation with her husband).
Interesting point about her use of the word “reverenced”.
tom wrote: "So far, I'm enjoying reading To the Lighthouse. I've previously read many of Virginia Woolf's essays, but never read this novel before.A couple of observations:
-I enjoy the long, flowing senten..."
I’m intrigued by your point about the narrator. There were several points where I wasn’t sure which character was speaking; perhaps that was the narrator chiming in. One was in the description of Mrs Ramsay’s providing support to her husband. Phrases like “the beak of brass, the arid scimitar” and “the rapture of successful creation” didn’t seem to fit for James or Mrs Ramsay to use.
I've read the novel before, but it has been years. I don't remember it. I don't even remember what I thought of it at the time. But this time around, I am loving it. I love the way Woolf's sentences flow seamlessly from thoughts to spoken dialogue. I love the way she moves effortlessly from the interiority of one character to the next. But most of all, I am struck by just how fresh and contemporary she sounds.
I am thinking specifically of some of the novels of contemporary authors like Rachel Cusk, Olga Tokarczuk, Han Kang, among others. Virginia Woolf's novel can fit write along side theirs. It sounds just as fresh, just as wonderful. The amazing thing is she wrote her novel nearly 100 years before they put pen to paper.
It just blows me away.
Susan wrote: "...Lily Briscoe wonders: “How did one judge people, think of them? How did one add up this and that and conclude that it was liking one felt, or disliking? And to those words, what meaning attached, after all?” ..."To me, the interesting part of that quotation is "And to those words, what meaning attached, after all?"
I don't read Woolf's text here as judgmental so much as observational. Part of my own disciplines has included exposure to the psychology of human learning. One of you has referred to Woolf as seeming "chaotic", yet I suspect if one observed carefully even one's own flow of thoughts one would be astonished by the rapidity with which one observation and sometimes response to that observation followed another. I perceive that Woolf does an uncanny job of capturing such flow in her series of words. In that sense, for me, her writing belongs to the realm of empirical observations.
I happen to think it is important to attempt to distinguish those empirical observations from the judgments they may provoke. As unexpected versus usual observations are brought to speech/words, it seems to me that there is significant danger in treating them as value judgements. It seems sometimes to me that Woolf brings us to the nexus of observation versus judgment, and that we do her, as author (narrator??), a disservice if we impose our own judgements too rapidly on characters or situations or ways of being. Which may just be my way of interpreting Lily Briscoe's own "stop" on the rush to judge.
Tamara wrote: "The amazing thing is she wrote her novel nearly 100 years before they put pen to paper. ..."Tamara -- I'm curious. What is the relationship of time to your observation? (I place the question from the context of this board, which focuses on the "old," the "timeless," the ....)
Lily wrote: "Tamara -- I'm curious. What is the relationship of time to your observation? (I place the question from the context of this board, which focuses on the "old," the "timeless," the ....)In this case, Lily, I was specifically referring to Woolf's style of writing. I read a lot of contemporary novels by women authors, and I was struck by the similarity in style. Many weave in and out of spoken dialogue and thoughts in the manner of Woolf, although some don't do it quite as flawlessly as she does.
Tamara wrote: "...Many weave in and out of spoken dialogue and thoughts in the manner of Woolf, ..."Thanks for connecting the dots! And I would add that Woolf includes visual (and the broad range of inputs the human body and mind processes continuously?) in that weaving. (Certainly she was aware of many of the things a painter "notices" -- position, light, angle, stability... Exploring the work of her circle of associates, including her sister Vanessa, provides clues.)
I've also noticed an allusion to the Reform Bill. So the time might be sometime around 1832, 1867, or 1884. The Reform Act that led to the subsequent Bills reformed the election system to give voting rights to the poorer populace and greatly reduced the power of the wealthy aristocratic people. The contrast and tension between the different socioeconomic classes are sometimes seen through Mrs. Ramsay's view concerning the lighthouse people, Tansley, Marie and Lily but also her own anxiety (and Mr. Ramsay's as well) about the precarious status of an upper class with probably moderate wealth is shown in part VII. being afraid, for instance, about the greenhouse roof and the expense it would be, fifty pounds perhaps, to mend it; and then about his books, .... that his last book was not quite his best book... and then to hide small daily things, and the children seeing it, and the burden it laid on them. Mr. Ramsay realizes his limit as well and searches for Mrs. Ramsay's sympathy. Mr. Ramsay's academic limit and the sense of aging and drying up and shrinking in Mr. Bankes might reflect the beginning descent of the male and aristocracy dominated society.
Mike wrote: "Very interesting point about the narrator. I am interested to see with this style of writing if we ever really get a sense of who the narrator is.I do not have much experience with this style of ..."
Will we ever really get a sense of who the narrator is? Good question. Let’s keep it in the table so we can come back to it later
Tamara wrote: "Susan wrote: "What do you think about Mr and Mrs Ramsay?.."Does this tell us something about Mrs. Ramsay? Does the use of this word indicate the extent to which she is willing to undervalue herself in relation to her husband?..."
Yes, in part VI she doesn't like to 'feel finer than her husband' and it discomposed her that people say that 'he depended on her when they must know that of the two he was infinitely the more important, and what she gave the world, in comparison with what he gave, negligible.'
I see her modesty in part V as well. she did not like admiration ... she wanted only to be like other people, insignificant.' This is not just in reference to her beauty but in everything else: 'She was silent always. She knew then - she knew without having learnt. Her simplicity fathomed what clever people falsified.'
I've expressed this as modesty for a lack of a better word, but it appears to me that she is almost afraid to be different from other people and chooses to be silent and negligible rather than stand out and hurt other people's feelings. She has this fixed notion that the husband 'ought to' be better than the wife and the wife 'ought to' depend on the husband. She is probably a reflection of Virginia Woolf's own mother who was an anti-feminist and anti-suffragist.
Borum wrote: "I've noticed that all the inner thoughts of the male characters show how they vie and yearn anxiously for the female approval and yet on the surface they try to one-up their female counterpart with..."As I read your description, I thought of Mr Tansley. Even when he talks to Mr Ramsay, he’s gossiping about other scholars and buttering Mr Ramsay up by telling him how great his work is. Mr Ramsay certainly makes heavy demands on his wife’s sympathy, and Mrs Ramsay certainly doesn’t seem to take much interest in philosophy. But I have a different impression of William Bankes and Lily. Lily does seem interested in understanding what it is that Mr Ramsay does — she may be too shy to ask Mr Ramsay, but she’s talked to Andrew about it — and to value it when she says “Oh, but think of his work.”
Borum wrote: "Susan wrote: "Week 1 — The Window, Sections 1-7The story starts on a mid-September evening as we meet Mrs and Mr Ramsay, who are staying in their rented summer house on the Isle of Skye with thei..."
I have questions about the section where Mr Ramsay quotes from the Charge of the Light Brigade. He seems to be lost in thought and not paying attention to where he is going, but what is he thinking about? Is he reciting the poem because he likes the sound or because it has some analogy to what he’s thinking about? I’m leaning toward the latter, but in that case, who has blundered? Is it Mr Ramsay himself as he tried to get to R?
Susan wrote: "Borum wrote: "I've noticed that all the inner thoughts of the male characters show how they vie and yearn anxiously for the female approval and yet on the surface they try to one-up their female co..."Yes, she doesn't seem to really understand the abstract content of his work but she does want to look at it from the most positive aspect as 'she was in love with them all, in love with this world'. I think Mrs. Ramsay doesn't understand all the 'ugly academic jargon' but tries hard to see it from the most positive aspect possible to keep Mr. Ramsay from feeling depressed by reminding him of what Tansley said about his work. However her understanding or interest is only by hearsay and she can't help feeling anxious about what Bankes had said. Both Lily and Mrs. Ramsay, belonging to a time when women weren't even allowed to go to universities, were probably not officially educated in the sense that the male characters were (and even if they were, metaphysics is a burdensome area of study for most people) but they do value the feelings of others and this is also reflected in Mrs. Ramsay's views about the weather. She'd rather be wrong than be right and hurt the feelings of others.
Borum wrote: "It also reminded me of how we don't necessarily think of 'important' or 'relevant' stuff all the time. Sometimes things just pop up out of the blue without reference to any of the subject matter at hand. However somehow it might be connected with something else we had in our subconscious mind but haven't been revealed yet.”. By the way I found it quite touching how Woolf accentuates Marie's sadness and loneliness by the simple and contrasting words 'At home the mountains are so beautiful'and the image of the bird wings folding themselves quietly about her. 'She had stood there silent for there was nothing to be said.'
For me, your analogy to the subconscious really captures how Woolf unfolds her characters, story, images and themes in a way that seems natural but is also intentional. The scenes with Marie, the Swiss maid with the dying father, are a beautiful example of this.
Susan wrote: "Borum wrote: "Susan wrote: "Week 1 — The Window, Sections 1-7The story starts on a mid-September evening as we meet Mrs and Mr Ramsay, who are staying in their rented summer house on the Isle of ..."
I was curious about that too. I was thinking that he was like the absent-minded professor or even thinking he's beginning to show some signs of dementia or some psychologic disorder. (By the way I wonder how old Mr. Ramsay is if Mrs. Ramsay was in her fifties) Reading the poetry it seemed like an analogy to how men often charge and strive for some kind of heroic victory without questioning why they are so eager to sacrifice so much in the first place. Also 'the blunder' might just be an excuse to look at his limit (of stopping at Q instead of moving on to R) in a less degrading light as a mere accidental error instead of an unsurpassable absolute limit in his possibility.
Gerard wrote: "This is my third time reading Woolf's To the Lighthouse, and it reveals so much more of its beauty and intensity with each reading. The character that most interests me in the novel is Lily Briscoe..."Lily is a fascinating character, isn’t she? How many times is the poor woman interrupted as she tries to paint her picture? Mr Bankes stops by, Mr Ramsay blunders by, Mrs Ramsay thinks “one could not take her painting very seriously”, her own thoughts/feelings of inadequacy impede her, but her easel is set up, and she has made a beginning.
I really enjoy this style of writing, where we move between different perspectives and times. I became a real convert to Modernism a few years ago (as long as it’s not very very hard Modernism) and was never able to be content with clunky old plot-driven Victorian Realism ever again. It does seem more true to how I experience daily life and how life ‘happens’. Mrs Ramsay is very charismatic isn’t she, I might be falling a bit in love with her myself, I keep wanting to be her. And as for Mr Ramsay, it’s hard to completely dislike someone when you’re allowed to overhear their thoughts. Shakespeare’s soliloquies have the same effect. Watching from the outside, Macbeth’s actions are simply despicable, but the play is far more complex than that because we view things from inside the character’s head.
Lily wrote: "Susan wrote: "...Lily Briscoe wonders: “How did one judge people, think of them? How did one add up this and that and conclude that it was liking one felt, or disliking? And to those words, what me..."As you say, Lily, there’s a pull between the tendency to judge and the observational, with a question whether one should/can judge at all. On Mrs Ramsay’s trip to town with Mr Tansley, her feelings and thoughts fluctuate in response to his words and actions like a sensitive scientific instrument, now up, now down. And he seems to have a similar response to her, clouded a bit by his ego. It’s Lily B. who sees the difficulty in toting her observations up and coming to a judgment on her hosts and fellow guests. Does the author agree with her? She implies, I think, that egotism impedes the ability to observe. We don’t know exactly why Mrs Ramsay paid a visit to the house in town because Mr Tansley, the novel’s observer at that point, wasn’t interested.
Wow, keeping up with all y'all will be a challenge. Upon first reading through the comments, I shall only jump at random bits, and leave coherence pending.I see the novel as contemporary with Woolf, or at least not of any other period.
BTW, Virginia's nickname was "Lark", so indeed James would have to be up with the lark to get to the lighthouse.
Mrs. Ramsay thought "they must know that of the two he was infinitely the more important" because she believed in general that men were more important than women. Men were judges, financiers, builders, generals, and wore robes of distinction.
Lily will be more significant to us than Mrs. Ramsay suggests. Painting is important. And Lily's thoughts about how we make up our judgments of people show her empiricist leaning. How else could she paint? She sees mass, line, shade, and color.
The first section was such a powerful opening. We get the whole scene in one breath, as it were.
[Now having self-identified as amphibian, I'll have to hustle to get a good spot near the terrarium.]
Susan wrote: "She implies, I think, that egotism impedes the ability to observe...."Wow! Thanks, Susan, for saying this so succinctly.
Is this one of the places where Jane Austin, of Pride and Prejudice and Virginia Woolf overlap in giving us insights on human character? Pride, ego, self definition (or sometimes lack thereof?) get in the way of seeing the other. How might one say other great writers deal with this conundrum?
Borum wrote: "I've also noticed an allusion to the Reform Bill. So the time might be sometime around 1832, 1867, or 1884. The Reform Act that led to the subsequent Bills reformed the election system to give voti..."Interesting. I’d suggest waiting for more evidence before venturing on a guess re the date ;).
Borum wrote: "Susan wrote: "Borum wrote: "I've noticed that all the inner thoughts of the male characters show how they vie and yearn anxiously for the female approval and yet on the surface they try to one-up t..."I find it interesting that Mr Bankes who is a botanist pronounces on how Mr Ramsay’s work in philosophy is going. Maybe he studies philosophy on the side, or perhaps it’s what he has heard from others.
Borum wrote: "I was curious about that too. I was thinking that he was like the absent-minded professor or even thinking he's beginning to show some signs of dementia or some psychologic disorder. (By the way I wonder how old Mr. Ramsay is if Mrs. Ramsay was in her fifties) ” Mr Ramsay is over 60, but I don’t see any signs of dementia or psychological disorder here. I think you’re right that he’s absent-minded. The analogies that the narrator uses imply there’s something heroic in Mr Ramsay’s attempts to push on beyond Q. For example — “Qualities that would have saved a ship’s company exposed on a broiling sea with six biscuits and a flask of water—endurance and justice, foresight, devotion, skill came to his help.” Maybe there’s a real analogy between his probably doomed efforts to get to R (and beyond) and the Charge of the Light Brigade.
Dee wrote: "I really enjoy this style of writing, where we move between different perspectives and times. I became a real convert to Modernism a few years ago (as long as it’s not very very hard Modernism) and... It does seem more true to how I experience daily life and how life ‘happens’. ” Definitely not plot-driven! Sometimes it seems to me like a piece of music where themes develop, drop, and return.
Sam wrote: "Wow, keeping up with all y'all will be a challenge. Upon first reading through the comments, I shall only jump at random bits, and leave coherence pending.I see the novel as contemporary with Wool..."
Sam, you and Borum in her comments above remind us of the limited educational opportunities and roles available to women at Mrs Ramsay’s time, which may add poignancy to her dreams about James’ future as well as explaining why her daughters “sport with infidel ideas which they had brewed for themselves of a life different from hers.”
Lily wrote: "Is this one of the places where Jane Austin, of Pride and Prejudice and Virginia Woolf overlap in giving us insights on human character? Pride, ego, self definition (or sometimes lack thereof?) get in the way of seeing the other. How might one say other great writers deal with this conundrum?” Interesting question! Maybe this is another one to keep on the table as we keep reading?
Susan wrote: "Definitely not plot-driven! Sometimes it seems to me like a piece of music where themes develop, drop, and return.."That's an interesting way of putting it, Susan. And just like you have to hear the whole piece of classical music before connecting the various themes, you probably have to read the entire novel to connect the thematic threads.
Mrs. Ramsay is very much a product of her time. She diminishes her self-worth as a woman and as a vital contributor to her family's well-being. She also views Lily Briscoe with a mixture of sympathy and contempt. She assumes Lily will never marry because, apparently, Lily doesn't have the looks to attract a mate. And she also trivializes her work.With her little Chinese eyes and her puckered-up face she would never marry; one could not take her painting very seriously; she was an independent creature, and Mrs. Ramsay liked her for it.
Mrs. Ramsay has been socialized to believe the only way a woman can attract a mate is through her looks. She doesn't take Lily's painting seriously not because art is not to be taken seriously but because, in this case, it is being done by a woman. In the same way she diminishes her worth in relation to her husband, here she implies anything done by a woman simply cannot be as important as something done by a man. Her acknowledgement that Lily is an "independent creature" sounds condescending to me--as if she is condemning Lily to a life of spinsterhood while simultaneously admiring her for her independence from men.
Susan wrote: "There were several points where I wasn’t sure which character was speaking; perhaps that was the narrator chiming in. One was in the description of Mrs Ramsay’s providing support to her husband. Phrases like “the beak of brass, the arid scimitar” and “the rapture of successful creation” didn’t seem to fit for James or Mrs Ramsay to use."At times the narration seems to be indirect interior monologue, but it seems to shift unexpectedly from one perspective to another. The effect strikes me as oceanic or tidal, with one perspective flowing into another. The description above is from chapter 7, which starts out from James' perspective, but quickly shifts to Mrs. Ramsay's. The imagery in this chapter from beginning to end is highly sexualized, so that shift is quite unsettling. It doesn't sound like Mrs. Ramsay, but I think it is. She's revealing thoughts that don't quite comport with her external character, and they are couched in language that is almost Freudian.
Tamara wrote: "Mrs. Ramsay is very much a product of her time. She diminishes her self-worth as a woman and as a vital contributor to her family's well-being. She also views Lily Briscoe with a mixture of sympath..."Mrs Ramsay calls Lily “Lily” and Lily calls Mrs Ramsay “Mrs Ramsay” which seems to say something about the nature of their relationship. (Incidentally, I wonder if we ever learn Mrs Ramsay’s first name.)
Thomas wrote: The description above is from chapter 7, which starts out from James' perspective, but quickly shifts to Mrs. Ramsay's. The imagery in this chapter from beginning to end is highly sexualized, so that shift is quite unsettling. It doesn't sound like Mrs. Ramsay, but I think it is. She's revealing thoughts that don't quite comport with her external character, and they are couched in language that is almost Freudian. I’ll have to take another look, Thomas, but I’m not sure whether it is a character, both characters, or the narrator. The other section where I wasn’t always sure who was speaking was in Section 6 where Mr Ramsay attempts to go beyond Q. Are those images of forlorn expeditions Mr Ramsay’s or the narrator’s or both?
(James’ reactions to his father seem textbook Freudian Oedipus complex.)
For anyone who like me wasn’t sure what “indirect interior monologue” is, here’s a definition:
“An interior monologue may be either direct or indirect:
—direct, in which the author seems not to exist and the interior self of the character is given directly, as though the reader were overhearing an articulation of the stream of thought and feeling flowing through the character’s mind;
—indirect, in which the author serves as selector, presenter, guide, and commentator.
(W. Harmon and H. Holman, A Handbook to Literature, 2006)”
Susan wrote: "Mrs Ramsay calls Lily “Lily” and Lily calls Mrs Ramsay “Mrs Ramsay” which seems to say something about the nature of their relationship."It might also be due to the age difference.
Oh Lord…I started A Room of Ones Own…read the first chapter…came in here to participate and realized it was supposed to be a whole different selection of hers…I will be back soon…loving that one also….
DaCane wrote: "Oh Lord…I started A Room of Ones Own…read the first chapter…came in here to participate and realized it was supposed to be a whole different selection of hers…I will be back soon…loving that one al..."Look forward to you joining in the discussion. Each thread will stay open for discussion, so folks can add comments
I am joining this discussion a bit late, I just finished the first seven sections. What I'm enjoying the most so far is the lyricism of some sencences:
"but there, like the body of a young man laid up in peat for a century, with the red fresh on his lips, was his friendship, in its acuteness and reality, laid up across the bay among the sandhills."
"He shivered; he quivered. All his vanity, all his satisfaction in his own splendour, riding fell as a thunderbolt, fierce as a hawk at the head of his men through the valley of death, had been shattered, destroyed. Stormed at by shot and shell, boldly we rode and well, flashed through the valley of death, volleyed and thundered--straight into Lily Briscoe and William Bankes. He quivered; he shivered."
The indirect interior monologue & free indirect speech techniques are used in a very delicate way. We have access to the character's thoughts, but Woolf is somehow "translating" them, making them sound more coherent than our raw thoughts are - at least that's my impression.
Virginia Woolf said about Ulysses "“When one can have cooked flesh, why have it raw?”. Maybe I'm taking it out of context, but I feel that Woolf is "cooking" the thoughts, delivering them in a more edible form...
I hope that is not to overlook that Joyce's writing is not entirely "raw"; he did write it, and he, the author, was not Bloom, the supposed thinker of these thoughts. Bloom is a fictional character. His "stream of consciousness" had to be written, i.e., invented, and by a writer with such an awesome command of language that he imagined for us the very sense of a stream of consciousness.But there is no question that Woolfe's power was no less, and of a fine delicacy. I am a great admirer of both.
Emil wrote: "The indirect interior monologue & free indirect speech techniques are used in a very delicate way. We have access to the character's thoughts, but Woolf is somehow "translating" them, making them sound more coherent than our raw thoughts are - at least that's my impression. "This is a great description, and even if the Woolf quote is taken out of context, I agree. Woolf thought that Joyce was underbred and unrefined, hence the term "raw." But she acknowledged the importance of Ulysses, perhaps because her friend T.S. Eliot loved it so much. She found Ulysses to be pretentious and obscure, but To the Lighthouse is not exactly straightforward either. They seem to me like different styles going in the same direction. A quasi-comic Irish style and a quasi-tragic English style experimenting with similar but not identical narrative techniques.
Well, I'll have to take Virginia to task about Joyce when next I see her, for her Bloomsbury jab at the Dubliner, and her Lighthouse being so evocative of his "The Dead".And at the same time admiring her refinement for expressions like "the cadaverous early morning light." Is she not a fabulous writer?
My other comments have to wait till we get to the end because they are all spoilers.
Emil wrote: "I am joining this discussion a bit late, I just finished the first seven sections. What I'm enjoying the most so far is the lyricism of some sencences:
"but there, like the body of a young man l..."
Welcome to the discussion, Emil! I’ve been noticing which characters we get to hear in indirect interior monologue and which we don’t. It turns out there are some characters who we will always see from the outside.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Pride and Prejudice (other topics)Authors mentioned in this topic
Rachel Cusk (other topics)Olga Tokarczuk (other topics)
Han Kang (other topics)
The story starts on a mid-September evening as we meet Mrs and Mr Ramsay, who are staying in their rented summer house on the Isle of Skye with their eight children, six guests, and the staff. Mr and Mrs Ramsay disagree over what to tell six year old James about a proposed trip to visit the lighthouse the next morning. One of their guests, Charles Tansley, went into the village earlier with Mrs Ramsay. Another guest, Lily Briscoe, is painting a picture that includes Mrs Ramsay and James sitting by the window. As they do these everyday things, the characters’ thoughts compose a counterpoint of observations, internal debates, and questions about themselves, each other, truth, beauty, philosophic inquiry, art, and human relationships.
Some Questions to Start:
1) Lily Briscoe wonders: “How did one judge people, think of them? How did one add up this and that and conclude that it was liking one felt, or disliking? And to those words, what meaning attached, after all?” What do you think about Mr and Mrs Ramsay? Why do they disagree on what to tell James?
2) The narrative moves between multiple perspectives (Mrs Ramsay, James, Charles Tansley, Lily Briscoe, William Bankes, Mr Ramsay) and between different times as the characters speak, feel, think, and remember. What is the effect of these multiple perspectives for you as a reader?
There has been an explosion of background information, biography, and criticism about Virginia Woolf over the past fifty years. At times, all that readily available information can get in the way of reading Woolf’s work and understanding her words. I hope in our discussion we can focus on the text as much as possible in this Information Age.
Info/Links:
The poem Mr Ramsay quotes as he walks in the garden is “The Charge of the Light Brigade” by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, about a heroic but disastrous military action during the Crimean War. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...
List of Characters (so far)
The Ramsay Family
—Mr Ramsay, a philosopher, 60+ years old
—Mrs Ramsay, still beautiful, 50 years old
—Rose
—Prue, the Fair
—Andrew, the Just
—Jasper
—Roger
—Nancy
—Cam, the Wicked, the youngest daughter
—James, the Ruthless, the youngest, 6 years old
Guests of the Ramsays
—Charles Tansley, a young protege of Mr Ramsay
—Augustus Carmichael, “should have been a great philosopher”, married
—Lily Briscoe, paints, a friend of Mrs Ramsay
—William Bankes, a botanist, an old friend of Mr Ramsay
—Minta Doyle
—Paul Rayley
Others
—Marie, the Swiss girl (a member of household staff)
—Mr Pauncefort, a painter