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Goodbye to library late fees
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My library system just started no late fees --- but they cut a deal with the county (which owns all 7 public libraries) - the Friends will give the county $10,000 a year for two years to "make up" the lost fines. I split a gut when I first heard it and announced my intention to go to the county commission meeting and ask them to refuse the "gift." After talking to one of the librarians, I found out that a deal had been cut. Our Friends group is controlled by a lot of old people who do nothing but enjoy the fruits of a very generous donation decades ago. They just spend the money. I joined the Friends when I first got here, discovered they have no public meetings, just the annual fund raiser dinner where they reelect their buddies. I went to a meeting of the board and one member of the board asked (in reference to something on the agenda) what an "ad hoc committee" was. I thought I would fall out of my chair and this was an elected board member making decisions about the libraries. Another friend and I were planning a hostile takeover of the board of the Friends but she suddenly died just as covid was starting. I gave up.But I have investigated this. I checked with a few of my past libraries and asked friends in other places. It is a growing idea - I asked if there were fewer late books now and the answer is no. People like us do not panic if the book is a day or two late unless it is on hold for someone else. Then I rush to read it and get it back. According to my local head librarian, the problem is people who have massive late fees - some student has $25 in late fees, just did not get it, despite phone calls and letters to home address. Or a poor mother with three kids who checked out books for all of them and now some are damaged or misplaced. The librarian told me sad tales - not about you or me. I doubt that this policy touches people who are on Goodreads. If we discount those who have large fines, the policy is not changing the financial picture much. Those who are honest and lose or damage a book will go pay for it. I have.
I am absolutely in favor of this policy. The dimes or quarters you and I pay for late books just take up a librarian's time in counting them up and sending the few dollars into the county (the owner of the library). For all the taxes I pay, the library should be free - I want it to be free to the homeless who go in there - sometimes bathing in the bathroom sinks, who can sit in the cool air in a comfortable chair for awhile.
This is definitely the growing trend. Books are essential, just like roads and public health and police. Check with the American Library Association if you want average data. You and I are not the problem. And I agree with you, research shows that if we trust people and teach them responsibility, they will be responsible. peace, janz
Nancy - where do you live.? I live in East Coast Florida - county has about 250,000 people. Cousin in South Carolina town - maybe 100,000 now has no fines. peace, janz
Yup, the Hennepin county library system (Minneapolis and surrounding suburbs) went to no late fee fines a couple of months ago. You may incur the penalty of not being able to reserve or check out books though if you abuse the system.
I'm in Western New York State. The Buffalo and Erie County Library has 38 branches. Population 900,000+ people.Right now I think it's a positive policy. I might not be as happy if the one copy of a book I want never comes back to the library.
Maybe, this is a national trend. My library system in Ohio just went to a no fines policy last month. Awhile ago, I listened to a news segment on NPR about library fines. Per the current research, doing away with fines did not encourage people to keep books out longer. It made no difference in how fast or slow books are returned.
This is up for discussion here in Clarkston, Michigan. Perhaps it is something suggested by a National group associated with the library system, or Friends groups? I am with Nancy, that it won't bother me until that one book never gets back!
Yes, this is a national trend. When my daughter was in high school, none of her lower-income friends would go to the library because at some point, something had happened. They took out a book and their cousin "borrowed" it and lost it, or the family was evicted, or home life was just too chaotic. This was a time when not everyone had computers at home and no smart phones, so these kids really needed the library. The problem isn't that people are scofflaws, it's the opposite. They felt terrible about loss or damage of a book, and even if it got paid for, they were ashamed to go to the library.Multiple systems have done this since the pandemic, including NYC. They all say they can make up the money elsewhere. It was a time-consuming process to track late fees and handle cash that people brought in. There was a recent article about how many people were now dropping off or sending back items that were decades old! Here's a short one but you can find others.
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/...
The library isn't just a place for books anymore, people need computers to get jobs or unemployment insurance. Many libraries lend out tools and other items, have "maker spaces" with 3D printers, etc.
I am in Indiana and I am pretty sure we did away with fines a while ago. Ditto to all of what @Robin said.
I typed out my reply, realized I glossed over her post and was basically just repeating what she said 😂
I just love to hear myself talk 🤷♀️
My local library still applies overdue fines. If the total reaches $10 they lock you out of any checkouts until it's paid. However, there is one month in the year that they collect food for the local food bank. They wipe out the fines if you bring in a contribution. I don't think they value the contribution, but I wouldn't know as my fines have been small and my nonperishable contribution larger. I believe they also have periods of moratorium when fines are lifted for books that are finally returned.
I haven't really followed this but it makes a lot of sense to eliminate fines because the expense of collecting fines far exceeds the cash brought in by it. At some point a library has to decide whether to just write off the fines and the books (and thus show a loss on their annual financials) or go through the cost of formal collection and still end up writing it off. I also honestly don't think fines are a deterent to late return as they once might have been.
To all of you who are concerned about the one book you want not being returned when the library only owned one book - here is what I did, twice. When the library only had one book (or the time the libs had 2 or 3 copies) and I was 57th or 84th on the waiting list, I just went out and bought a copy of the book. Read it, then donated it to the library. I made such a fuss about it that the processing group (where I used to do volunteer work) made up a book plate "Donated by Jan Zahrly." Sometimes this is not possible. After some po-dunk group in the South got Maus removed from the library, it caused a run on the books. I am now 7th on the library wait list for out one book. I have tried to buy the book but there are no books for sale other than collector copies which cost $50+. I talked to my local librarian about this and she checked - we have 10 copies on back order. The group that got the book banned did a lot for book sales and I am glad. I have one on back order as well as the one on reserve at the library. If there are requests, our policy is the book is NOT to be renewed. I was moving down the list at my library and the librarian checked and an employee was disobeying directions. We suspect that someone was just holding the book because it was so BAD so others could not get it. That has stopped. So the po-dunk group somewhere in the South really helped sales in this country. Hooray. Again, if possible and your library does not have the book or it is checked out, consider spending you money for a book, instead of steak or ice cream. It will be a far better thing that you do! peace, janz
I haven't read the comments yet, but my concern is if it's a book I'm waiting for, I like that extra 'incentive" for someone else to return it, so I can get my turn! That being said (*knock on wood), I have never had a late fine on a library book.
ETA: I guess I'm just not a forgiving person, but I feel like fines are "optional". That is, they are optional in that you can return the book before it's due and/or you can renew the book (usually). If you can't renew, you return.
Holly R W wrote: "Maybe, this is a national trend. My library system in Ohio just went to a no fines policy last month. Awhile ago, I listened to a news segment on NPR about library fines. Per the current research, ..."This is a "thing", now. In Canada, too.
And no, I don't make those decisions at my library. :-) We do still charge fines (though my public library doesn't anymore).
I work for a public library and we still charge late fees. We have been considering doing away with fees but there is a lot to go through and get approval for n order to do so.
LibraryCin wrote: "I haven't read the comments yet, but my concern is if it's a book I'm waiting for, I like that extra 'incentive" for someone else to return it, so I can get my turn! That being said (*knock on wo..."
I am a conscientious person but also disorganized, so in the days before online library accounts and email reminders, I sometimes lost the little paper slips that showed when a book was due and would have to pay for a day or two. Or life was crazy with 2 little kids and I had trouble getting to the library in time. It's easy for us middle-class people with predictable lives to say that everyone has the option to return the book on time, but that's not how life shows up for everyone. (Not a criticism for you, Cindy, I honor you and everyone who works for libraries!)
Peacejanz wrote: "To all of you who are concerned about the one book you want not being returned when the library only owned one book - here is what I did, twice. When the library only had one book (or the time the ..."You have such a great attitude toward so many things in life, Peacejanz!
Thank you, Robin P. Pass it on. How do I change the world? One person at a time, beginning with me. peace, janz
Thanks for the great perspectives and ideas everyone! I remember how I felt when I was young, struggling to pay bills, and I lost a library book in the chaos. I was so humiliated by a loud and rude library employee, I avoided that library for years. The staff at that library were rude in other ways too, such as talking among themselves about patrons, using physical descriptions (fat, black, old, etc.). The library staff where I live now treats everyone with respect, so I forgot about that. I'm sure others have had worse experiences that discouraged them (and their family members) from using the library.
I agree that it's really important for libraries to make everyone feel welcome, and provide services to those who need it the most. I'm really happy about any outreach efforts and policy changes that encourage people to return. I know that they're doing a lot for refugees and other families who are just beginning to speak English too.
I'm feeling really proud of the Buffalo and Erie County Libraries.
I am certainly not against canceling these fees and I noticed that our library did that over the pandemic when people couldn’t easily return books or get them back in time. But I do wonder how that affects the speed reads. At our library they put aside new best sellers and highly popular books that you can get for speed reads but you have to turn return them in seven days. Otherwise you’re fined a dollar a day. Due to customer feedback they just increased it to two weeks. But here’s the thing, you can get a wanted book very very quickly but you have to return it quickly. But if they didn’t have the fines why wouldn’t people jump the line, and grab the popular book ahead of the 684 people who are waiting for it? Example: I run this local impromptu book club, so many of the folks request the book from the library as I do. Some of the buy it out right. But if the wait is super long, folks will come in and grab the speed read. And return it quickly. But if they were no fines for the speed read, no incentive to return. Maybe if this is the trend across libraries they will only have fines for these specific books who are selected for this popular honor.
I don't think all libraries have what you call speed reads. We do have a couple things for new books. There are some you can get where you pay a small fee, like 2.00 upfront, so you are actually renting the book. This might be an elitist view, but I don't think the people wanting to get brand-new books they know about because of following book news are generally the same people who have problems returning a book on time. If I know that others want a book, I will try to return it as soon as I have finished, even if there is still a lot of time till the due date.
Our library still levies fines, though I (and several other library board members) are in favor of eliminating them. If your fines reach a certain dollar amount you are banned from checking out additional materials. However, some of the libraries in our county-wide system have a policy that allows a patron with outstanding fines to still check out digital books (either e-read or e-audio). After all, digital materials are automatically "returned" on the due date. My local library board has NOT agreed to this policy, mostly because our president is adamantly opposed to it. He's old school and just doesn't get it about the realities of life for those families who are struggling.
I, personally, have never had a late-fee fine imposed. Though I have twice had to pay for a damaged book. (One audiobook disc was eaten by my car's CD player ... the car was still under warranty and the dealer paid the fine for replacing the book when they were unable to retrieve it and had to replace the entire CD player system.)
I am a Librarian. My library still charges fines, but I wish we did not. The way it typically works is that a person who returns a book late pays nothing, but a person who loses or damages a book does still pay for it. The library may or may not suspend privileges for those with overdue books until they are returned; I've seen/read about libraries who work both ways. We have "lucky day" books - they are new, popular titles with wait lists, but we purchase a few extra copies that are on a 7 day checkout cycle, with no holds. If we did not charge fines, we would still have these titles, but if they were late, you would not be able to checkout til they came back in.
My library does do one neat thing for kids - anyone under 18 can "read away" fines (but not lost/damaged fees), earning $1 per 20 minutes spent reading in the library. I know several families that really appreciate that.
Something else - Automatic renewals. I have a couple books due on April 16, and the library automatically renewed them. I don't know if this is part of the new policy, or just because of the holiday weekend (with Friday and Sunday closings). I really like this!
NancyJ wrote: "Something else - Automatic renewals. I have a couple books due on April 16, and the library automatically renewed them. I don't know if this is part of the new policy, or just because of the hol..."
My library (where I work) does automatic renewals. We do check out's for 3 weeks. Items will renew twice automatically as long as no one else had that item on hold.
Jillian, I love that idea of the read away! That is so the right attitude!
In my library, all books, new and old, have a two week check-out. Books with holds (new, popular) can NOT be renewed and those with half a brain realize the book is new and very wanted so they read it within the two weeks. We do not have auto renewals. But with covid stuff, who knows what the rules will be next year, next week, etc.? But my library is the one that made a deal with the country to transfer $10K for two years to offset the fines. And that is fines, only. Not book replacement when the book is damaged or will never return.
I still argue that libraries are public goods, like roads and street signs. Those of us with money need to keep paying taxes or buy library memberships. (I think my library in coastal Florida, charges a small fee - maybe $10 for part time residents who have a lib card elsewhere.) Otherwise a library card is free is you show that you live here (driver license, school ID). peace, janz
From FB and NYTimes - NYPL is also no more late fees and has a great story to tell: https://www.facebook.com/5281959998/p...
I only use my library for Kindle books, but they announced in October that they were doing away with late fees. Physical books and Kindle books are both 3 week check outs, which I think is pretty fair. I still have my San Antonio library card, but don't know what I'll do when that expires since I now have an Alabama license. :( I really enjoy being able to use the Kindle feature with us not having enough room for me to keep a physical stock of books anymore.
It is possible to get library privileges for libraries in different towns or states than where you live for a reasonable annual fee. That way you can access the ebooks and audiobooks. Some people are set up for multiple libraries that way.
What Robin says is true. Also big city public libraries can also have free membership to any State resident, not just City. For example, NYPL in NYC lets any NYS resident be a member, who mostly use for ebooks and audiobooksw. Now personally as a NYC resident whose local public library is NYPL I do get very grumpy and resentful of all those upstate who contribute to the massive hold lists when they have their own local public library....
Our public library locally has not charged fines for years. If someone is late, they are contacted and requested to bring it back. This process has worked well. Of course, it is not an issue for e-books or audios, which are automatically returned at the expiration date.
And the exact reason I don't like not having late fees has come to pass. I put a hold on the only copy of a book on March 27. It was due back on April 11. Still not returned. :-(
I realize fees may or may not have made a difference, but I do think it's somewhat of an incentive to return items on time.
Dear Library Cin -- I know what you mean. I had a hold on Maus and my place in the queue got larger, not smaller. I talked to the head librarian and she confirmed that some employee was not following directions. If there are holds on the book at my libs, the book is not to be renewed. This is a book that has been banned in Tennessee (and maybe other places) and I suppose that some right wing nutjob was convincing a library staff member to keep renewing the book and to put others in the hold list ahead of me (and 9 others when I first went on the hold list). The librarian never told me what staff member was disobeying rules and I did not ask her. My place on the wait list has been decreasing and now today I am number 1. So, LibCin, what is your library's policy on renewing books that are on the wait list? I have 2 books right now not that will not be renewed because there are holds - I will read them this weekend or scan them to see if I want to read them and they will be back at the library on Tuesday - first day the libs is open. One time, I just did not realize that I could not renew a certain book and one of the very sweet library employees phoned me, told me it was overdue and that there were holds - offered to come get the book if I could not get it back. I was embarrassed - my bad. I got the book back that day.
I assume that my rightwing nutjob did not care how large the fine became. Of course, when the fine becomes high enough, his/her lib access will be suspended but when you are operating for God's cause, trying to get books out of the hands of children and those of low IQ or liberal beliefs, what is money to you? Any cost is ok.
Excuse my rant. I think my lib's attitude toward fines is good and it has been some good publicity for the library system in the short term. Public roads, public schools, public libraries -- all public goods paid for by our taxes.
Hope your book comes in soon - but talk to your librarian about it. peace, janz
I really doubt that fees make a big difference in people returning books on time. People who don't want to follow rules still won't care. People whose lives are chaotic just lose track. Those of us who care are motivated more by knowing other people want the book, than by paying a small fine. The main thing to me is if people are getting reminders, which all libraries should be doing now by email or text.
Peacejanz wrote: "So, LibCin, what is your library's policy on renewing books that are on the wait list? ..."I don't think they can be renewed if there is a hold. Although I have been able to, but I suspect that's only when there are multiple copies.
Yes, if only one copy, it is only fair to all library users to have no renewals after a 2 week period (or whatever your library normally uses for a check out time). My library insists on a two week checkout with 2 renewals of two weeks each if there are no holds, i.e., 6 weeks total. And sometimes it catches me unaware - I try to renew a book that I thought everyone had forgotten or ignored and suddenly, No renewal - Holds on this book. But I want to be a good citizen so I take the book back with a note to self to check it out again, carefully noting the page I am on. The only book like that now is Obama's large latest book. I could not do that in two weeks. But it remains on my list. Good reading. I am looking forward to my book from the long hold - any day now. peace, janz
I once patronized a library with a very smart, very aware, very up-date head librarian. Normal check out time was two weeks but when I turned 55 or 60 (or some ancient age), the librarian checking out my books noted that my status had changed. When I hit the old folks group, all my checkouts were for 3 weeks. I don't know how many renewals were possible. I was younger and I appreciated the consideration that folks read more slowly or had more trouble with their eyes as they aged. One smart librarian. I tried to get the folks down here in Florida to do that but the library director (head of all 7 libraries and a great political hack) refused the request. Now were do a bunch of old folks live? Florida. Rumor is that she is going to retire soon and I can hardly wait. I am going to nominate some smart people who are aware of the world around them. peace, janz
Peacejanz wrote: "But I want to be a good citizen so I take the book back with a note to self to check it out again, carefully noting the page I am on...."If I need to, this is what I would do, too. I am careful, though, to rarely take out more than I can handle in the time allotted, and if it looks like I might not be able to finish everything, I check to see which one(s) I might be able to renew and which not. I will read the ones I won't be able to renew first, so they can be back on time.
My (public) library has 3 week loans. I think we can also renew twice, as long as there are no holds.
I try to do this, too, but I have to admit that it sometimes gets away with me, like when I checked out B. Obama's book and a couple others. But it will come around sometime later. I used to buy the books I wanted but then realized I have TOO MANY - especially when I retired and moved to Florida. So I try very hard NOT to buy books but to use the library. In turn, each year, I buy a book box for our book club folks (12 books of the same issue) - we have about 100 book clubs in the area and out book boxes are very used. I want to buy a Dickens book since there are none in our library of book boxes. Any recommendations from anyone about the Dickens book to buy? Tell my why. I have read most of Dickens and want to get one that most readers will enjoy and will have a lot of room for discussion. Thanks. peace, janz
At first it seemed crazy to me, because I'm sure they get a lot of money each year in fines. I don't usually feel guilty for returning books a couple days late, because I was paying a fine in compensation. (Though I do feel guilty if there are no extra copies or there's a wait list).
But today with the new policy, I made sure to get my books in on time, even though I was tired and it's raining.
I think the idea is that if you trust people to behave responsibly, most will live up to those expectations.
What do you think?