WE ARE OPEN - WEEK THREE - EISENHOWER IN WAR AND PEACE - February 16th ~ February 22nd - CHAPTER THREE - The Peacetime Army (49 - 73) No-Spoilers

[[deleted user]]

You're so right about families preferring to keep quiet about their issues. Especially, I imagine, when dealing with mental health in the early 20th century.

Your writing earlier was clear, Bentley. I understood that you were referring to the difference between Ike's father and grandfather. As for John's memories...I didn't lose my grandfather until I was in my 40's, but even then I'm not sure my understanding of who he was was identical to that of his own peers.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

That is interesting about your understanding of your grandfather - I have to say that our memories of our grandparents are always romanticized you know in a way - because our relationship with them is always different that the ones our parents had with their own parents.

I think we loved them for who they were rather than their standing with anybody else. A child's love and perception are rather pure.

Mental health even till this day is not something that anybody wants to talk about - better now than in Ike's day but still not good. And of course they do not want a stigma to be attached to anybody in the family as if it were something to be passed on or caught like a cold (smile).

In Ike's case - who would want a general who had mental problems so I think if in fact his father did - the family would have kept it under wraps.

[[deleted user]]

Good point! Can you imagine how people who are ignorant about mental health might react if they thought mental illness might run in the family of the man with his finger on the nuclear button?!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Exactly - I think a lot about Ike's father was buried by the family.

[Maureen]

I didn't get the impression that Mamie was mistreated in their marriage, or that Ike ignored her and the family. I think that Mamie was very immature and naive when she married Ike and did not understand what it meant to marry a career serviceman. That meant she didn't get to call the shots about where and how they lived, and his career was of paramount importance in their lives. Time were very different back then, all the way up until the 1960s. Women married and followed their husbands wherever they went, and their job was to make them successful and take care of the kids and the home. Nobody asked women what they wanted. Men tried to make them happy by earning money for a nice home and family. But in the service, it was all about duty and promotions. If Mamie didn't have family money, she would have had to tough it out wherever they went. She was lucky she had the resources to give herself a break and some alternatives.

I also don't think Ike was selfish in what he did. His career came first period. That's the way it was back then. He had to make the best choices for his career in order for them to get anywhere or have anything else. Also, as most servicemen are, he was driven by duty first.

I think Ike was so fortunate to have met Fox Conner, and it was quite the symbiotic relationship between mentor and mentee. How wonderful that Ike met someone who took him under his wing like that, and how very fortunate indeed Ike was to get such specialized training. The parts about Patton were also very interesting. I didn't know that his family came from such blue blood and had so much wealth. I'd know a little about him from seeing the movie, and reading about him in WWII, but it definitely makes me want to read more about him. My husband served in the Army in Europe at the same time Patton's son was there, and even met him and spoke to him briefly. I also saw him attend some function that the band was at (my husband was in the 30th Army Band and we were living in Kaiserslautern, Germany at the time). I never got to meet him, but it was interesting to be so close to someone connected to history.

Ikey's illness and death was such a tragedy, but I certainly would not cast blame on either one of them. Who would have thought to have asked the nursemaid if she had recently been exposed to any serious illnesses? If anyone is to blame, it was her, unless she also was unaware, and in that case her doctor was remiss in not letting her know.

I found it very interesting that Mamie did some soul searching the last time she went home and actually looked closely at the lives and husbands of her friends and decided she really didn't want that type of life and was happy with what she had. I thought that Mamie and Ike seemed like great companions when they first got married, but drifted apart as their lives went on and especially after Ikey, as we were told. But I always had the impression that they were also good friends - more than just spouses of the times, so I was please that she recognized the essence of Ike and gave him permission to go for it. I think Mamie maybe got a chance to really come into her own as First Lady.

Thanks Bently (and others) for all the great resources that have been posted in here. As I was some of the old newsreels and the "I like Ike" commercial, I actually remember some of them. Pretty cool.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Maureen I appreciate where you are coming from but I think Mamie put up with more than she had too and she was indeed lucky to have such a supportive family - on that we can agree.

What a fascinating connection you had - I guess you probably understand some of the demands of army life.

Fox Conner was a blessing to many of these young men.

I think that Ike was distracted when he came to his family and household help or anything to do with the home - his mind and his attention were certainly elsewhere. Although he did write loving letters home.

I think you are right Maureen - finally while living at the White House she got the life she thought she was going to get all along.

What I find with these campaign ads is a real connection to the problems of everyday Americans at that time - some of the issues sound the same today oddly enough. The part that has changed dramatically and thank goodness that is the case is that women are not portrayed as maids with their Hoovers or shopping and housekeeping while their husbands sit immobile in their recliners. I never saw an ad where the woman was a successful lawyer, business woman or any kind of a professional.

You are welcome Maureen - I am going to go back and put in the others when I get a chance.

[Maureen]

Bentley wrote: "I think that Ike was distracted when he came to his family and household help or anything to do with the home - his mind and his attention were certainly elsewhere. Although he did write loving letters home. ."

Yes, I do agree on that one Bentley. I think it was partly the times, and partly the parenting example he had as a child.

I would have to reread some parts again to look for your take on Ike/Mamie -- it's quite possible I missed it. And then again, I may be coming from my own parenthood models, which are rather like Ike & Mamie's. ;)

[Maureen]

I did reread the parts about Mamie and still hold the same opinion (doesn't mean it's right :) -- Mamie's expectations were not in line with her current station in life, and notice that as their station and quarters improved, she got a lot happier, which is to be expected, of course. Now, if I judge their marriage by today's standards, by all means, we should have expected more from her husband. But still, he was career Army, and they owned him first.

Connor certainly recognized and rewarded Ike's talent and performance. (Distinguished Service Cross, CSSG school, etc.) As with regular life, who you know is more important that what you know. And don't forget that the Army at that time was borderline incompetent, with a lot of dead wood and petty jealousies in positions of authority. I was amazed that Ike and Patton were reprimanded for coming up with better strategies than the Army already had for use of tanks in warfare. Sounds so typical of the Army - just like the training at West Point was geared around the Cavalry.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Maureen wrote: "Bentley wrote: "I think that Ike was distracted when he came to his family and household help or anything to do with the home - his mind and his attention were certainly elsewhere. Although he did ..."

I was thinking that might be the possibility - but would never make that assumption.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Maureen wrote: "I did reread the parts about Mamie and still hold the same opinion (doesn't mean it's right :) -- Mamie's expectations were not in line with her current station in life, and notice that as their ..."

That is OK (smile). I think right off the bat - he is newly married and he volunteers to take off to the Far East and nobody in his class volunteered (mind you) for anything of the sort. That sends up flares for me.

You know a lot more than I do about army politics but it sounds very plausible because of the situation that Marshall found it in.

[Maureen]

Bentley wrote: "You know a lot more than I do about army politics but it sounds very plausible because of the situation that Marshall found it in. ."

Nah, not really. My husband was not career army - just an enlisted man doing his three year tour. But I did learn that when you sign up, your life is not your own and your person is then considered government property. :D

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

That sounds like a major corporation that I worked for (smile)

[Ann D]

Bentley,
How interesting that John Eisenhower loved spending time with Ike's parents! Ike's Mom was always present and involved - his father much less so. But that information gives me a different perspective on his dad.

Sometimes people do better with grandchildren than their own children. Ike's dad raised 6 boys on not much money; it couldn't have been easy. Both his mom and dad were probably more relaxed once those responsibilities were finished.

It's also interesting that John found them very well educated. Both spent some time in college. All their children were big achievers, and the boys must have got a lot of their intelligence and persistence from their parents.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, I caught that too. He loved them and that was the high point of his summer. It did for me too Ann. It is always good to have different perspectives.

That is true too (your second paragraph) or this author's view is more slanted when it comes to Ike's Dad. It is hard to fathom but through his grandchild's eyes - he thought they were awesome.

What is there about some families when folks are poor - but all of the children become achievers - while other poor folks have children who never do well or are delinquents. What makes the difference. I think in Ike's case that both of his parents were very religious and more than likely non drinkers and probably non smokers - although Ike smoked up a storm when he was overseas. A 3 to 4 pack a day habit. So you have to wonder - where rebellion starts and ends and what effects your parents have on you. I think that your parents' DNA is with you forever and you become more like your parents the older you become.

Yes Ann they even read Greek so they were classically trained!

I was scratching my head after listening to John Eisenhower.

[Brian]

I think Ike's and Mamie's moral obligation to one another guided their ongoing marriage difficulties. I don't think today's generation would withstand those pressures as well as their generation did.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Brian I think you are so right. Nowadays it is me, me, me.

[Rosella]

1. If you were married to somebody who wrote to your mother complaining about your lack of correspondence - how would you feel and how would your mother feel - and do you think that this was an underhanded thing for Ike to do? It was pretty apparent that he did not ask after Mamie? To me it appeared he was being a big snitch and trying to cause a rift between mother and daughter as well as trying to exercise some leverage on Mamie.
It never entered my mind that Ike was anything but a lonely husband and father who wanted to hear more frequently from his wife. Of course the fact that she ran off and then didn't write indicated that she felt somehow wrongs, but if she didn't want to talk to him, what was he supposed to do. Thinking about it in relationship to my life makes it a little weird. There was a little over a month when I lived with my parents while waiting for my husband to be transferred to the city where I already had a job. Since this was 2011, letters were obviously not our primary means of communication. We talked on the phone once a day and we posted youtube videos back and forth on each others' Facebook walls. It would have been strange if he had posted to my mom's wall instead of mine or called the home phone to complain about me. In either case, I think Mom would have taken both of us to task and asked us if were old enough to be married.

2. Do you think that Mamie had a point about how she was being forced to live her life while Ike ran off on convoys to play Indians and clearly saw it as a lark?
Just because Ike found time for jokes, doesn't mean he wasn't also serious about furthering his career. Remember that Smith also quotes part of his report accusing his fellow officers or lax discipline. I think at this point in his life, Ike remained equal parts disciplined officer and fun loving prankster. He was working and earning money for his young family at the same time he was having his "larks."

3. In this day and age, how many women would tolerate being treated like Mamie was while their husbands were stateside?
I got the impression that Mamie often choose to live with her parents because she didn't approve of the housing options. I noticed that she spent more time with him once he started to afford nice off base apartments.

4. What I thought was interesting - is how Ike tried to convey that he was the interested party and was the one who was being injured. Did anybody else feel that Ike was quite out of touch with how his own actions should have been perceived or what he was accountable for in the break down of his marriage? It appears that Ike felt "entitled" to live his life the way he wanted to live it and that Mamie did not have the same rights.
As I've stated before, I think Mamie was the spoiled one, but Ike wasn't necessarily blameless. That said, I think the conflicts also represented the separate spheres present in most marriages at the time.

[Bryan]

Some great points, Rosella, thank you. You know, I haven't' thought of Mamie as being spoiled before. You make an interesting point where she came from money and grew up with some expectations. thanks.

[Scott]

I read into this section as test of Mamie and her fortitue of handling Ike's military responsisiblity. She obviously was very naive as to Ike's career influences but realized that she was responsible for helping him advance in his career while building up his influence in the armed forces. She certainly did not get to chime in on where they would live or how to set up the lifestyle she may have been longing for, but she at least had family money to support her desires to some small extent. I feel is she didn't have that cushion to fall back on she may have closed off and become bitter against Ikes appointments.

In those days Ike and Mamie were together in marriage and for better or worse realized they had to learn to cope with each other the best they knew how. Divorce, seperation or living together were simply not the carefree options there are today.

[Vincent]

This chapter was informative.
I think we must remember that after any way armies contract (Custer was not a general anymore after the end of the Civil War) and this is always difficult for career men especially officers.
And that America wanted to be in no more wars so how would we expect the military opportunities to be.
I agree with the comment that Fox Connor could well have been a father figure to Ike.
I also agree with Roselle that Mamie was likely spoiled. Going home when it suited her - having a maid provided by Poppa to take care of the baby - coming from a wealthy family and taking money immediately upon marriage on an ongoing basis. But she was so young and Ike relatively so poor.
The loss of Ikey was a catastrophe. How does one cope? Do both parents not feel that they failed to protect their child and what stress does this put on the relationship. According to a 1923 Commerce Dept report children under 5 years faced a 19% mortality rate so the crisis for the Eisenhowers was not so unique. Maybe a lot of it was what would Mamie's life have been if she had married a successful civilian rather than a successful military man.
Regarding the survival of the marriage I think we have to look at the mores of our society at that time and the marriage was also somewhat insulated by Mamie's ability to escape much more often that the average housewife.
Patton's bigotry was disgraceful but earlier this month we had racist frat activities in Oklahoma from a fraternity of well educated and seemingly pretty prosperous young people. Of course Patton was a "Christian".
I think this chapter is very revealing of the real world our characters are living in and how they are living.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes Chef - thank goodness she had that. And I agree with you - if she had to trudge three steps behind Ike wherever he wandered off to - she would have been miserable. Yes both of them understood duty and commitment.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vince that mortality rate is so high compared to today - hard to fathom. The real world of 1923 is vastly different than the real world of 2015 - light years apart in terms of mores, commitment, duty, attitudes toward minorities and even today there are parts of the country which still seem to be struggling. Patton's view at that time was not in the minority and that is the shame of it. He was who he was so folks knew his views and obviously he did not keep it in check. My father (an air force man) discussed his World War II days and coming from the North and being in the South stationed in Monroe, Louisiana for a time was shocking for him even then. He got up one time to give his seat to a pregnant black woman and he heard about if afterwards but he said he would have done the same thing again. But there was a real VISIBLE separation - racism was in full view. That was then and now is now and we unfortunately have to judge history and those in it in terms of the mores and attitudes at that time. Bad as they were.

[Erica]

Bentley wrote: "Interesting Erica - are you in the military? I wonder why Patton liked the ability to move independently

Bentley,
Yes, I am in the Army. I wish that I knew why Patton felt that way. However, this book has really sparked my interest in WWII reading and maybe someday I can answer that.

I'm just doing my part as all of those who came before. Thank you for your support.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You are welcome Erica. Moving independently may have been just something he liked to do - meaning that he was in charge and maybe he thought that they could maneuver better, faster and be more nimble with changing orders. Who knows.