SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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The Actual Star
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"The Actual Star" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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Mod
The things that worked for me:
I enjoyed the future society the most, sort of a Brave New World meets The Dispossessed. Everyone is somewhat typecast in this very sparse utopia world. I keep going over the details of that era in my head wondering how well all the elements fit.
That was my favorite but I liked all three eras separately. Each one had a very distinct flavor and characters which I liked. I enjoyed how Ixul made sure the memories of her and Ajul were preserved.
What did not work for me was the tying together of all three eras. I guess I wanted more. I understand people in 3012 identifying with the two personalities but I would have loved more explanation on how that came about and some sort of thread through 2012.
I would have also loved a bit more explanation on how the society of 3012 came about. The unexplained disaster is fine but how did the tech become such an integral part.
Oh man, I started this and really liked it but the cutting was too much for me to handle and I had to put it down. I'm just sensitive to those kinds of things, so I'm bummed that I couldn't read this.
Finished -- To be honest, this one didn't really work for me. Too much cutting and blood, too many inexplicable rituals, and I didn't care for any of the characters. I know everyone is supposed to hate info-dumps, but this novel is an example where a handful of short and pithy info-dumps would have helped. I wound up giving it 2 stars instead of 1 because I did manage to finish reading it.
Mod
I would have like a tiny bit more information but I did really enjoy her future society.
Deedee wrote: "Finished -- To be honest, this one didn't really work for me. Too much cutting and blood, too many inexplicable rituals, and I didn't care for any of the characters. I know everyone is supposed to ..."Agree with you about the cutting, blood, rituals and characters. Finishing was an accomplishment. I was tempted to dnf many times. I did think the three time lines pulled together well at the end though I thought the last chapter disappointing .
I kept thinking throughout the book that after 2000 years humans still can't quit fighting about religion.
I really enjoyed reading the three separate time lines and seeing connections among them and the people in each setting. I found Byrne's future society very interesting as a development from today's issues overlayed with the culture she created. As others have noted, it would have been interesting to see more of how the 3012 culture and religion developed early on, though there were comments in the text that it didn't spring up right away after Leah's death (similar to Christianity following Jesus' death), and so some of the murkiness of the origins also seems realistic to me.
I wasn't bothered by the blood and related issues, but could have done with less of the explicit sex descriptions. I did think the idea of all people having male and female genitals (and reproductive capacity) was interesting as a response to a society having gone through an extreme population crash.
I’m about halfway through this book and not sure I’m invested enough to keep going. I’m intrigued about how 2012 Leah will have such an impact on society that she’s celebrated as Saint Leah 1,000 years later but I don’t know that I’m intrigued enough to plow through 300 more pages, especially since I have books like The Song of Achilles and the new Marlon James on my pile to read next. Those who have finished - is the second half enough of a payoff to make it worth it?
Just finished as well. First book of the month since joining the group. So, hello everyone!I am torn with how I feel about this one but overall I feel like I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread. It seems like maybe some of the threads connecting everyone went over my head, particularly how Leah fit into it all. Like I understand her disappearance led to the religion in the future timeline but what was that last chapter all about?
Mod
Scant thoughts on what I have read so far.
Making a religion of being a culture vulture was... interesting.
"What if, she thought, travel itself could become a religion, where the rituals of wandering became the essence of the faith?"
(view spoiler)
I really didn't need to read this sentence.
Nineteen instances of the word 'cock' in this sexually explicit story but it only refered to a penis on three of those occasions. Who'd have thought that despite having a view point character who proudly wears the title of 'slut' that heads would be the most cocked body part.
The use of 'Kriol' aggravated me in the second Cayo chapter of book 1 (18 Dec 2012).
(view spoiler)
This was so unnecessary. And painful. I pushed on for a few more pages but it ultimately made me examine all the things that I said I'd hold off on judging until the end. The use of sex, the exploration of gender, it all seemed very 'Hah, this will infuriate the conservatives and incels!' which is perfectly fine by me usually but if you're not going to do much more with your allies than use them as tools to piss off your ideological opponents then we're going to have words. And look at that, I have words.
Giving everyone breasts, a vagina, and penis in the future may have been an interesting thought experiment but the shock jock nature of many aspects of this book had me wondering if a Right wing radio host wouldn't have included the idea in a rant against trans rights with a prediction of where we'll end up if
Ryan wrote: "I really didn't need to read this sentence."😂 Me neither, but I thought I was just being a prude!
Mod
I too was annoyed by the way Tanaaj used her followers but I sort of took that as the writer setting up a fatal flaw rather than an actual characteristic
Hank wrote: "I get all that Ryan, I guess my feelings are that I thought the violence, blood and overt sexual "futurism" were more towards the necessary side than the gratuitous side. I find the thought experim..."Still reading but: the justification for everyone being both sexes is so thin that I think the book is trying to push buttons regarding sexuality. There are other examples of sexual behavior that might make people uncomfortable, furthering my sense that the book has an agenda. The transformation of (explicit) torture into genuine mystical experience is probably the thing that bothers me the most so far. On the other hand, the “self harm” seems to be tied to traditions in the americas and minimally linked to psychologically related issues, so I don’t read it (so far) as “pro”, as some reviewers have. Ultimately, the book feels like it wants to be both hard sci-fi and supernatural, which is a turn off for me.
Mod
The Aug is the big thing for me. Interesting vision of how augmented reality might be used in society. The idea of blurring out people as punishment is new to me. The system of justice based on total visibility and fear of shame resulting in denial of mutual aid and other support - all made possible by The Aug - is intriguing.
I thought there were a lot of interesting sci-fi elements in the 3012 storyline that often were just referred to too briefly (for me). The hoverdishes and hoverchairs that people could use to move around if they had a need for them. The Paragua network connecting folks and matching needs with items or folks who could do a particular job. The sea roads that I desperately wanted more description of. I could have read a longer book set just in 3012 so I could have more detail on the technology that allowed the Laviajas to persist in the post-apocalypse world.
Mod
The Aug is in the boat too. It could have been neat, if explored, but it ended up feeling more like a game HUD for me.
The "meat" of the story felt more about this search for Xibalba, and a past life regression arc. Gods and magic as a focus sure surprised me in a book compared to the societal elements of Butler. And none of the narrative elements felt strong enough to support the others. The destruction of the first empire felt sudden, the Xander/Javier arc felt overly drawn out and thin, and then the motives in the future arc were unclear as I didn't know enough about the society to see why this thought process was as disruptive as it seemed to be.
I also really just don't...get erotica in books that aren't erotica. It felt to me like Ryan said, that it was just about the shock factor or "sticking it" to someone. I'm a fairly raunchy person in the sense that I don't mind having discussions of anatomy and what people want to do with it, but it felt like the stuff I'd say to gross my sister out and embarrass her in front of the inlaws or something. And the incest and the twin conquest and rim jobs and having everyone have both reproductive organ sets...it was like being at a festival where everyone else is microdosing, and I stumbled in during a hike.
Wrong chord for me I think.
I did like the feeling in the cave though, and the snippets we got about the future society. If the whole book had been about living without having, that would have been much more interesting to me! Even if it was framed in a religious sense.
Mod
Allison wrote: "I think my issue is that it had new ideas that it just didn't deign to elaborate on like what you mention, Meredith, and that the parts it sooort of explored, like the religious no-attachments comp..."I have a hard time imagining what augmented reality would be like other than a HUD or, more generally, replacing parts of our sensory experience (my expectation is that it will be used to turn every city into a custom-for-you advertising stream as a trade so people can choose skins, bringing the furry dream closer to reality). A deeper interface to the global network (future Internet, I suppose - will it still use TCP/IP?) could have included, say, "emotional feeds" and "continuous education" (instead of the hallucinogen enhanced dumps that required days to recover from - I don't understand what "braiding" is, BTW). This technology seems to provide an interface only to sensory pathways (though I would appreciate more details to confirm that). What I read as a justification for keeping the interface superficial in this way rang a little hollow: it seems like the "meat" of the brain could be fully utilized (aka trained) and have a deep interface that allows access to global knowledge intuitively as well as via an "augmented reality UI".
For me, the religious/mystical dimensions reframe the book as fantasy - disappointing because I prefer my serious sci-fi more sci oriented.
As some reviewers mentioned, the book feels intended to bring "sex positivity" into taboo or other uncomfortable areas. I think it goes as far as it does to push everyone's buttons, not just the more conservative/traditional folks. I'm not sure this is a feature I want in a book I'm reading, but, well, there it seems to be.
Afraid I’m stuck for now (it seems my vision is quickly degenerating and I can’t read for long times).The printer technology is very interesting. The 3D printers I own and have used are very fragile and slow, so my first impression was negative. It only took a little effort to imagine that stability and speed could be improved vastly with MEMs and become more open minded. I doubt a softball sized blob of stem cells could feed someone hiking around the globe for a month, and I’m not sure they could be specialized into nutritionally different or tasty food without some nutrients of their own and time to grow, but it’s at least a fun idea.
I just got to the part where Ixul gets her tongue cut off while Ajul thinks about getting an enema and I'm just like... why????
Adeline wrote: "I just got to the part where Ixul gets her tongue cut off while Ajul thinks about getting an enema and I'm just like... why????"Just when I thought nothing else in the book could disturb me I came to that part.
Adeline wrote: "I just got to the part where Ixul gets her tongue cut off while Ajul thinks about getting an enema and I'm just like... why????"I haven’t got that far myself (not sure I’ll make it). I don’t really understand how some people loved this book, seemingly unconditionally. I’m worried that I’m thinking about planted and bot written reviews, but it’s starting to feel like a worthy concern…
Mod
I think for me the big issue comes down to the plotting and the structure of this story. I was interested in this initially because the blurb mentioned reincarnation/past lives. And while I did catch on fairly early that the Ixul/Ajul, Javier/Xander, and Nixiul and Tanaaj were the twins reincarnated, for much of the book it felt like a gimmick rather than a plot until we get to the end.
There was so much focus for these characters on finding Xibalba, (which was a plot I was not even remotely interested in) instead of the relationships between them and healing them, that there just wasn't anything driving the plot forward for me, and I felt mostly bored by it. (I think there was some grasp at tension and stakes in the 3012 storyline by trying to make it seem like the two factions would go to war, but the idea was never given enough attention to make me believe that was where it was going.)
I almost wish she had told the story more linearly - so we could have seen how Ixul/Ajul's splitting up initially was being carried out and repeated in future lives, growing the divide between them. But the way it's told, we don't see any of that until the very end. Therefore, there just wasn't anything driving the book forward for me until the very end.
The violence and the sex didn't bother me so much but I do think it was intended more for shock value than for anything else.
I also didn't really care about any of these characters which was another factor in my boredom. I think Javier and Leah are the most sympathetic, but Leah's constant exuberance for the cave was seriously grating. Ket was my favorite character (and I think the most interesting) but then she disappears early on and we don't see her again until the end.
I agree that there were many times it felt more like Fantasy than SF. My favorite SF element as others have said were the Paragua- matching people and their skills with jobs that needed doing. I had trouble envisioning what a lot of the other tech was actually doing.
I also think the ending, though I enjoyed that more than the rest of the book, was kind of weak. The switching fast through the POVs, one minute Tanaaj is Tanaaj and the next she's Javier... it was confusing and not well executed.
I think I could have enjoyed this if it had been about 200 pages shorter.
I finished the book last night.1. What did you think of the writing?
I compared it to cotton candy. It looks substantial until you try to sink your teeth into it and realize there’s not much there. I felt like the author threw a lot of ideas she thought sounded cool into the mix, but didn’t develop them strongly.
This was also one of those books with an unsatisfying (for me) ending, where the author has a bunch of mystical stuff happen, throws out a line or two that might be an explanation for various things and might not, and then lets the reader draw their own conclusions. Ok, fine, but I spent the whole book drawing my own conclusions. That’s part of the reading process. By the time I get to the end, I want the author’s conclusion. Endings like this make me wonder if even the author understands her story or if she just hoped that if she kept things vague enough then readers would just assume it was over their head but surely very clever?
2. What did you think of the world?
Initially I thought it was interesting. I looked forward to the chance to learn more about Mayan culture, and I had some fun keeping an eye out for the links between the three timelines and guessing how it might all tie together. I probably enjoyed the 1012 timeline the most. I found the motivations of the characters in the 3012 timeline the most difficult to understand, and I never really “got” the 3012 society. We were given enough info to explain how the society formed the way it did I guess, but I just never fully bought into it or had a solid understanding of it in my head.
3. Did you have any favorite characters?
Nope. I can usually feel some sympathy for characters even if I don’t relate to them or agree with their choices, but I really didn’t feel much interest in or sympathy for any of the characters. Ket was probably the one I was most interested in, but we didn’t see much of her after the beginning.
4. What worked or didn't for you?
Aside from the things I’ve already complained about above, I had issues with the Kriol. I see Ryan had some issues with it also. Did other people find it easy to understand, or did you gloss over it, or did you enjoy puzzling through it?
For me, I think I mostly had issues because I read it during a phase where I was really busy with work. I only had time to read at night before bed and my job keeps my brain pretty busy all day, so it’s not at its best by bedtime. Sometimes I'd get to one of those passages and my brain would completely rebel and say "No, we're not doing this right now", and I would close the book in frustration and go to sleep instead. The next morning if I remembered to give it another try before work, I could usually figure it out with a fresh mind, but it slowed me down on a book I was already not enjoying that much and added to my frustration.
I know the most important parts were re-conveyed in the surrounding text, but I thought some of the Kriol passages had some nuances that would be missed if one didn’t take the time to puzzle them out, although not in a way that would prevent one from understanding the overall story. I might have been less frustrated if I could learn the art of glossing over things, but I hate to feel like I’m missing something. :) And if I’d been reading under different circumstances, I might have had fun puzzling it out. The Kriol did add some flavor I guess, but I think it would have been better if it had been just a few words here and there, with the rest spelled out in standard English while the reader was just told the characters were speaking Kriol as is often done in books where characters are speaking another language.
And yeah, regarding fantasy vs science fiction, I didn’t see this as being science fiction at all. There was some futuristic stuff in the 3012 timeline, but that was just set dressing. The actual plot was all driven by mythology.
Mod
I agree- this is a great way to put it.
I also struggled with the Kriol and when it got to those parts I didn't even try, I just skipped to the English. If it had been a book I was more invested in I might have tried, but in this case I just wasn't.
I did end up deciding to plow through and finished it a few days after my initial comment and it was worth it as I enjoyed the second half better than the first. This is partially because the 3012 segments in the first half are almost indecipherable without heavy use of the glossary and only start to make sense after enough context is provided by the 1012 and 2012 sections. The lack of world-building in the 3012 chapters felt like a missed opportunity and I agree with comments above that the sex felt more like a quick political statement than a choice worthy of exploration.I really did enjoy the ending, however, and thought the crossing timelines in the cave was really well executed, even if it didn't need 600 pages to get there.
Also, I'm from Minnesota so I have to admit I enjoyed the early 2012 segments where I recognized just about every landmark the authore referenced (except the fictional town of Anoong).
Sarah wrote: "I also struggled with the Kriol and when it got to those parts I didn't even try, I just skipped to the English. If it had been a book I was more invested in I might have tried, but in this case I just wasn't."That was a much more logical way to handle it. I kept wondering why I was putting so much effort into it even after I had acknowledged that I really wasn't enjoying the book, but I couldn't stop myself. :)
Some questions come to mind:Was I to take this novel at face value?
Or, was it meant to be a work of Absurdist fiction?
Is it a critique of current societal concerns? With all the cliques and vitriol.
The story was divided into three parts:
The ancient Maya part of the story was excellent. Interesting, imaginative, yet often brutal. It felt raw and honest.
The scenes set in 2012 on the other hand (and this is supposed to be the core of the story -- the part that links everything together) were dull and pointless. (Don't get me started on the pages and pages of Kriol... eghh.) I am astounded that the peoples of the future believe the characters in 2012 had anything important to add to the direction that humanity should strive toward -- based on the content of the novel.
This is why I think that the future of 3012 is deeply flawed.
I was truly and intensely hoping to see where Byrne would show the fissures in this "utopian" future, but she never dug deep enough into why this future was so profoundly disturbing.
Rather than forming a society that embraces tolerance and acceptance they have created a world where we are 'forced to choose' our gender, sexual orientation and race. A future where all they have is weird sex and their crazy religion (umm... no thank-you.) Everybody loves everybody else; therefore, no-one truly loves anyone.
There is no honest diversity in this imagined future. It is all window dressing: whatever the fashion. A frightening dystopia, devoid of humanism.
I originally felt that the story was -- in some way -- going to explore the Absurd nature of life. I sometimes still do think this because of the ritual sacrifices of 1012 Maya, the enforced nomadic existence of 3012 (BTW cancel culture is crazy in 3012), and the main characters' obsession with sexual exploration in 2012. Byrne truly did a marvellous job of weaving these topics (and many others) together, but I didn't feel that the importance of the human experience was there. It felt wrong. It all felt like a façade.
Was it meant to feel like this? Was this Byrne's intention?
I don't know. The ending was so confusing and muddled I couldn't tell.
The biggest reason I believe the religion of 3012 is thoroughly absurd is because of the ojos-de-Leah.
I really wanted to love this book, and I thoroughly enjoyed Byrne's writing style. I was intrigued by the themes on the circular nature of existence, duality, ritualism, etc. Yet I feel there is an underlying naïveté present in this novel.
Whether it was or wasn't Byrne's intention to question these issues, I still feel that the ending was weak and convoluted and hence unsatisfying.
Mod
What do you think was the intention of revealing that Leah was terminally ill? Did it have any impact on her eventual outcome?Maybe it was there to justify her recklessness at the end, but I really thought her intense spiritual connection to the cave made the ending inevitable regardless.
G R wrote: "Some questions come to mind:Was I to take this novel at face value?
Or, was it meant to be a work of Absurdist fiction?
Is it a critique of current societal concerns? With all the cliques and vitr..."
You put many of my feelings so far into words (stuck at halfway point because of IRL stuff). I had to look up ojos-de-Leah in the back of the book. Interesting it uses “believed” in the description, where other things the glossary states as fact. I don’t think modifying children’s brains in an attempt to be more like
This is me while reading this book... hoping...
Oh yeah... Arnie speaks Kriol
Mod
Wait, I haven’t finished. Is it all tumor induced hallucination?
Ryan wrote: "...Giving everyone breasts, a vagina, and penis in the future ..."
Ok, I'll ask. Since this is biologically/evolutionarily VERY VERY unlikely, what was the reasoning in how this happened?
I started this book as a library loan and returned it early since I wasnt feeling it, so I've only gotten a little ways in.
The book was interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what the author was trying to say with it. There were a lot of topics she touched on, but none of them really seemed like the cohesive gel that was holding the three storylines together. Was this supposed to be a commentary on faith and extremism? The horrors of betrayal? Life sucks and then you go to Xibalba? I spent four days reading this hoping we'd get some more concrete answers at the end of the book, but I ended up with more questions than answers and now I need a nap.
Rick wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Ok, I'll ask. Since this is biologically/evolutionarily VERY VERY unlikely, what was the reasoning in how this happ..."The book doesn't go into great detail about it tbh. It just explains that humanity was in danger of dying out after becoming newly nomadic, so fetuses were treated in the womb to grow both sets of genitalia. Basically if everyone has a womb and everyone has testicles, then everyone can have children with everyone. What began as survival then turned into religious tradition. Some don't like it and get one set of genitalia shrunk.
I'm not going to be able to finish this and I rarely don't finish a book. I'd like to so that I can participate fully in this conversation, but I'm not feeling it and once I got to the made up language that was it for me. This story had great potential but it was too slow moving and there was too much that wasn't fully explained or that I didn't understand. Maybe if I had read further it would have made sense but I didn't get far enough. Too bad as some of the ideas were worth exploring.
My favorite character is Xander because he's grumpy and hates where he is and everyone else there. Well, me too, Xander, me too...as I'm reading the Leah scenes. I appreciate the worlds she created, but I have been hot and cold all throughout this book. I never really cared about any of the characters, and for so many words written (600+ pgs.), there is a lot undeveloped in these timelines and their continuity that could have made this a much more enjoyable read for me. I kept putting this book down to read others, but I'm invested (85% in) and have to see how it all ends. Given some of the comments here, I'm prepped to be disappointed. Oh well.
Mod
I only got halfway on this one. This is compared to Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler....which is a favorite and why this originally piqued my interest. Did anyone every pick up on the connection? Because I don't see it. For me, it was too weird and slow and cringey. It felt like it was always leading towards some kind of pay off where everything would connect and make sense, but I eventually lost faith it would be worth it.
I was bored and confused by the future. Why were they appropriating Mayan culture? My Latine husband was also very grumpy about the way they changed Spanish in the future and felt it wasn't evolved in a way that made sense to Spanish speakers.
I think I liked the present best, but that was slow going too and the pidgin english made me cringe. Mostly it just felt super awkward knowing the author was white. Is that actually a problem? I'm not sure, but I was uncomfortable.
And the past was gross and gruesome and once again, I felt uncomfortable knowing the author was white.
I feel like this book really rides that line of "is this appropriation or appreciation" and I might have been more forgiving if it had been more immersive and enjoyable.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Girl in the Road (other topics)Brave New World (other topics)
The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia (other topics)
1. What did you think of the writing?
2. What did you think of the world?
3. Did you have any favorite characters?
4. What worked or didn't for you?
Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions