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Bleak House
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Bleak House - Group Read 4 > Bleak House: Chapters 1 - 10

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message 401: by Paul (new) - rated it 5 stars

Paul Weiss | 377 comments I'm listening to the audiobook version narrated by Mil Nicholson that is available for free on YouTube. (It's very well done if I do say so myself). When I got to her narration of the Krook dialogue, I just about choked. I could have sworn that I was listening to a Victorian version of Gollum from LORD OF THE RINGS, complete with the emphasis on extended sibilants, the repetition of "Hi!", his repetition of the "s" in "parchmentses", his unhealthy fixation on hair and his rather creepy fondling of Ada. Even his aged, wizened appearance put me in mind of Gollum. Anyone else?


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Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Fiona wrote: "I found it interesting that Krook remembers names involved in Jarndyce & Jarndyce ..."

Mr. Krook is illiterate, so perhaps this is how he remembers things, by constant repetition. But yes, why is he interested at all? His shop is near Chancery, and full of all sort of things.

It's a wonderful description of him, I agree, and a gift to artists!

Mel - good to see you back!


Connie  G (connie_g) | 1041 comments "Passing through the shop on our way out, as we had passed through it on our way in, we found the old man storing a quantity of packets of waste paper in a kind of well on the floor.

Krook seems to be storing a large quantity of paper, reminding us of all the paper being filed away by the lawyers working on the Jarndyce case. The lawyers' papers seem to have as little worth as the waste paper.


message 404: by Sam (new)

Sam | 445 comments Paul wrote: "I'm listening to the audiobook version narrated by Mil Nicholson that is available for free on YouTube. (It's very well done if I do say so myself). When I got to her narration of the Krook dialogu..."

Nice catch Paul. I DoD not see a resemblance till you pointed it out.


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Natalie (nsmiles29) | 96 comments There was a lot to think about in this chapter!

...the fog still seemed heavy—I say seemed, for the windows were so encrusted with dirt that they would have made midsummer sunshine dim…

I love how we’re instantly reminded of how dingy the house is. So brilliantly descriptive.

Crumbs, dust, and waste-paper were all over the house.

This line brought to mind all those illustrations from chapter 4 with the “waste-paper.”

Then there was this creative description of the children:

The children tumbled about, and notched memoranda of their accidents in their legs, which were perfect little calendars of distress;

Such great imagery!


message 406: by Natalie (new) - added it

Natalie (nsmiles29) | 96 comments I loved Caddy’s conversation with Esther about the “duties of a child.” You can just feel her (justified) frustration.

Then let the public and Africa show duty as a child...

And I’m just waiting for the day I can use this line in a conversation:

You are shocked, I dare say! Very well, so am I shocked too; so we are both shocked and there’s an end of it!

I’ve been wondering more and more about Mr. Quale. We haven’t learned much about him, besides that he has some projects in Africa, and I’m assuming, must work with Mrs. Jellyby in some fashion. I’m more concerned about him now that we learn Caddy seems to have some major issues with him.


message 407: by Sam (new)

Sam | 445 comments Just a quick note. I noticed a couple of days ago that I had missed some posts that appeared in my feed after I wrote my post. This happened again today since when I posted my post followed Lucy's on my feed when I posted and coming back to the topic several other posts now are between Luffy's and mine. So if I repeat something or fail to acknowledge a remark, that is why.


message 408: by Natalie (last edited Mar 03, 2022 06:59AM) (new) - added it

Natalie (nsmiles29) | 96 comments It’s fun that we get to meet the little old lady again. I’m intrigued, like Jean mentioned, that we still haven’t learned her name. My heart went out to her when we learned about the reduced circumstances that she lives in and how youth, and hope, and beauty are seldom there.

“I find the nights long, for I sleep but little and think much. That is, of course, unavoidable, being in Chancery.”

“I have felt the cold here. I have felt something sharper than cold. It matters very little. Pray excuse the introduction of such mean topics."


I instantly noticed the bird cages, especially after we had the conversation about the bird Esther took to school. So many people seemed trapped in the Jarndyce suit, just like the birds. I also couldn’t help but wonder if the Lady Jane wanting to eat the birds, was a metaphor for someone as well.

I have discovered," whispering mysteriously, "that her natural cruelty is sharpened by a jealous fear of their regaining their liberty.

Perhaps there is someone involved in the suit that keeps prolonging things, out of cruelty? Or maybe the lawyers are the ones that keep it going, as we discussed earlier.

Like Paul, I’m wondering if the lodger that is a law-writer is the one whose handwriting Lady Dedlock recognized.

"The only other lodger," she now whispered in explanation, "a law-writer. The children in the lanes here say he has sold himself to the devil. I don't know what he can have done with the money. Hush!"


message 409: by Natalie (new) - added it

Natalie (nsmiles29) | 96 comments I’ve been pondering the significance of the “sixth seal” that the little old lady has mentioned several times.

This is what it says in the Bible:

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind” (Revelation 6:12, 13).

She mentioned it at one point in relation to, what sounds like, winter coming on.

”When the leaves are falling from the trees and there are no more flowers in bloom to make up into nosegays for the Lord Chancellor’s court,” said the old lady, “the vacation is fulfilled and the sixth seal mentioned in Revelations, again prevails.

Do we have any clues as to what she means by “the vacation”?


message 410: by Natalie (last edited Mar 03, 2022 07:06AM) (new) - added it

Natalie (nsmiles29) | 96 comments The landlord, Mr. Krook, was, in my mind, the creepiest character we’ve meant so far. Luffy described him perfectly with the word, “ghoulish.” I thought the illustration Jean posted by Furniss matched what I imagined most closely.

The part where Richard told him to stop fingering Ada’s hair (which is super creepy!) and Mr. Krook gave him a “look,” gave me the heebie jeebies.

Dickens set the scene so well I could just picture his shop where “everything seemed to be bought and nothing seemed to be sold”. And of course he chooses to share the dreadful scene of Tom Jarndyce’s death with these young people. I imagine he loved shocking them.

Does anyone know what the old lady means when she says he’s a bit “M”? Did she mean “mad”?

Paul - I hadn't made any connections to Gollum, but I can definitely see that! I can see why he came to mind, especially if the narrator was reading him that way.


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Natalie (nsmiles29) | 96 comments I’m wondering if Dickens was foreshadowing the future with this conversation between Ada and Richard.

"I am grieved that I should be the enemy—as I suppose I am—of a great number of relations and others, and that they should be my enemies—as I suppose they are—and that we should all be ruining one another without knowing how or why and be in constant doubt and discord all our lives.
"At all events, Chancery will work none of its bad influences on us. We have happily been brought together, thanks to our good kinsman, and it can't divide us now!"
"Never, I hope, cousin Richard!" said Ada gently.


I’m concerned for Ada and Richard, that they are going to get drawn into the nastiness.

"Ah, cousin, cousin, it's a weary word this Chancery!"


message 412: by Connie (last edited Mar 03, 2022 07:06AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1041 comments 'The only other lodger,' she now whispered, in explanation; 'a law-writer. The children in the lanes here, say he has sold himself to the devil. I don't know what he can have done with the money. Hush!'

The law-writer is unnamed here, but Dickens seems to be giving us a hint that we'll see him again. Someone that sold himself to the devil is sure to be a fascinating character.

Edit: Natalie and I cross-posted about the same quote!


message 413: by Donna (new) - rated it 5 stars

Donna (drspoon) I’m reading along and appreciate all the great comments here. The Rag and Bottle Shop seems like another extended metaphor for the Chancery - and a dark and spooky one at that.

@Natalie - I came to the conclusion that the vacation referred to the summer months when the court was not in session. Also, the the old lady’s reference to Krook as M meant that she thought him to be mad.

I’m wondering about Krook’s relationship to the Jarndyce’s and Bleak House after the weird encounter with Ada when he writes the words out for her to read. Also, in talking about the aftermath of Tom Jarndyce’s suicide, to whom is he referring when he mentions “noble and learned brother?”


message 414: by Paul (last edited Mar 03, 2022 08:05AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Paul Weiss | 377 comments Natalie wrote: "
Paul - I hadn't made any connections to Gollum, but I can definitely see that! I can see why he came to mind, especially if the narrator was reading him that way"


Obviously, since Krook pre-dated Gollum by many, many years there can be no similarities of Krook to Gollum BUT there definitely could be similarities to Gollum to Krook if Tolkien was a Dickens fan! The repetition of the "s" in the word "parchmentses" really stuck out for me. His description as "ghoulish" gave an overarching flavour to his behaviour.

If you want to check it out for yourself, Krook's speaking part begins around 2:17:00 on this audio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXt5O...


Kathleen | 505 comments I'm finding this the most complex Dickens I've read to date, and since I am not good at details, Jean's summaries and everyone's comments will help me a lot with my understanding!

I like Dickens' darkness, and think Krook is a fascinating character, with so much possibility in his shop full of discards.

Isn't it interesting how loose paper is everywhere? Flying around in the Jellyby's home, all over in the Lord Chancellor's shop, and stowed away in the old woman suitor's bag. Mounds of paper is such a good symbol of bureaucracy.

Jean, your question about why we need two narrators is interesting. Where David was the hero of his own story, I'm assuming this story is not all about Esther, plus I think coming from multiple points of view is a clever way to add depth to the mystery.


message 416: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Anne (On semi-hiatus) wrote: "Jean: "The mad old lady was a touch too much." Do you think she is mad, or merely eccentric? "

The old lady so far doesn't seem mad at all. Calling someone "mad" is an often-used way to discredit ..."


You're answering Luffy here, of course.


message 417: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Paul wrote: "Are we to suppose that this means Tom Jarndyce is the grandfather referred to in Chapter 1 who blew his brains out?.."

Yes that's him :)


message 418: by Petra (last edited Mar 03, 2022 08:27AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Petra | 2178 comments What an interesting and odd chapter! I tried to read carefully as it seemed to be a chapter full of hints. But I may be mistaken and putting meaning into "red herrings".

Like Sam, I immediately thought the Law-Writer was the person who's writing Mrs. Dedlock recognized.

The waste paper that Krook has hidden in and littering his store could have a piece of vital information to the Jarndyce & Jarndyce case; one that will break the case open and cause an actual judgement. There's just so much mention made of the paper and the hiding of it.
Either that or Dickens is adding another reference to the court case being mired and buried in paper, which causes the case nothing but clutter and obscureness.

Paul, I hadn't put Tom Jarndyce together with the grandfather who blew his brains out! Great deduction! It could very well be that this is true. It makes sense.

I rather like the old lady. She's a steady person, despite a life time of chasing something that she has no control over. She hasn't let it get her down or despondent. She keeps a tidy house, doesn't complain about her circumstances, cares for her birds, hasn't lost interest in life or people. She's a rock, of sorts.

I'm not convinced that Krook is as mad as he's being portrayed to be. He knows more than he's saying. If he could read, I'd say he was reading every word on his waste paper collection and retaining the info.
He knows something about Esther. He seems quite interested in her.
His fondling of Ada's hair was a bit odd and creepy, as his his hair collection.
Is he making himself seem odd and perhaps mad for some other purpose?

Jean, you asked whether Krook may indicate Crook.
I didn't get the impression that he was dishonest but the description of his shop reminded me of the lairs of the receivers of stolen goods in his other novels (Fagin's place, for example).
So, I'm unsure where the person of Krook lands right now, but I lean towards "not a crook".

I do wonder how he survives. He seems to buy things but not sell things. How is he supporting himself?


message 419: by Natalie (new) - added it

Natalie (nsmiles29) | 96 comments Thank you Donna! I didn't think of it that way. That makes a lot of sense.

I loved the notes and info you added Michael. Thank you for drawing my attention to the quote on "equity." I also enjoyed the article on the Megalosaurus. (That poor guy did need a face lift!) When I read that part in the book I was thinking of the first Doctor Who episode that stars Peter Capaldi as the Doctor. They accidentally bring a dinosaur back with them to Victorian London. That was the scene I was imagining. Lol!

I also appreciated the facts you shared. I love learning interesting little tidbits like that. :)

Paul, thanks for sharing the link! Her impression of Krook definitely calls to mind Gollum! It made me smile. It's interesting how different narrators can make the characters seem different just by how they read them.


message 420: by Paul (new) - rated it 5 stars

Paul Weiss | 377 comments Petra wrote: "I do wonder how he survives. He seems to buy things but not sell things. How is he supporting himself?"

A pathological hoarder perhaps?


message 421: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Connie wrote: "The lawyers' papers seem to have as little worth as the waste paper."

Yes, nice observation - and Mrs. Jellyby's papers. This book is drowning in paper! It's a recurring motif.


message 422: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Sam wrote: ""The Circus Animal's Desertion," which I think alludes directly to this chapter in the last stanza. ..."

Nice idea, but I think the only connection is the imagery, as you said. W.B. Yeats surely is writing about the difficulty of writing poetry and how real life - and all its clutter - "the foul rag and bone shop of the heart" prevent him from writing about heroic figures and folk heroes such as Cuchulain.

No connection with any of the themes in Bleak House that I can see.

"my only worry that we mjght miss something important" ... Don't worry we won't miss anything!

Have you read this before by the way, Sam?


message 423: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Paul wrote: "I'm listening to the audiobook version narrated by Mil Nicholson ..."

This sounds absolutely marvellous Paul! I love that parallel. I've heard before that Mil Nicholson is a superb narrator :)


message 424: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 09:25AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Natalie - Thanks for picking up about the "sixth seal" and the Biblical reference :)

When the little old lady talks of a vacation, and winter coming on, these are both meant literally though. The court is in recess over the summer, so all the lawyers are on vacation.

Yes, since Charles Dickens is holding back the little old lady's name, we can expect it to be particularly good or apposite :)

"Does anyone know what the old lady means when she says he’s a bit “M”? Did she mean “mad”?"

Yes, she's being polite and not saying the word out loud! The joke being that "a little bit mad" is how those in Chancery describe her!

I too think the illustration of Krook by Harry Furniss is well night perfect! He's one of Charles Dickens's gnarled grotesques, and should not look ordinary!


message 425: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 09:21AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Natalie wrote: "There was a lot to think about in this chapter! ..."

Exactly!

Luffy - Please do not speed-read, unless you really have to. Plus, I know this novel is one you are keen to read, so I wouldn't even think of trying to rate it yet. We've had just one installment and there are 20! You'll enjoy it a bit more if you just give it time, please! (I've just spent 5 months preparing it for our group read ...)


message 426: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 09:31AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Paul wrote: "Petra wrote: "I do wonder how he survives. He seems to buy things but not sell things. How is he supporting himself?"

A pathological hoarder perhaps?"


Yes. Petra - nice thought too about Fagin's lair :)


message 427: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 10:06AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Michael - You are definitely our go-to expert on Victorian fashion :)

Mr. Tulkinghorn is actually rather dated in his clothing, as you say. Coupled with his "rusty" appearance, he often chooses 18th Century attire. We can tell his bearing and demeanour from this, too :)


message 428: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 09:40AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Kathleen "your question about why we need two narrators is interesting. Where David was the hero of his own story, I'm assuming this story is not all about Esther, plus I think coming from multiple points of view is a clever way to add depth to the mystery."

Great answer! One of the things I dislike about dramatisations of Bleak House, is that they will try to make it "Esther's story" - and it is so much more than that! But I can see why it is easier, as there are so many stories intertwined here. We haven't met half the characters yet!

Charles Dickens's approach is very ambitious, and even though it's so successful, he never tried it again. You can probably tell from the letter to John Forster (which I posted at the beginning) about how exhausted he was, that this might be the reason why. It's a tour de force.


message 429: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 10:14AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Donna wrote: "I’m wondering about Krook’s relationship to the Jarndyce’s and Bleak House after the weird encounter with Ada when he writes the words out for her to read.

Mr. Krook writes the shape of letters, which he has committed to memory, and asks Esther to read them, as he cannot. But he does recognise the names, so it pleases him.

We do not know that Krook has any connection at all with the case of Jarndyce and Jarndyce, except that he lives so close to Chancery, and jokes about being the Chancellor of his own mass of papers and a motely selection of rubbish.

"to whom is he referring when he mentions “noble and learned brother?”"

This is just the way the legal profession talk in English courts of law: "my learned brother" or "my honourable friend" and so on. So he is pretending to be a lawyer, and affecting the same manner.

Edit: I've just realised you correctly answered the question about the vacation for Natalie. Thanks! I missed that.


message 430: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 10:03AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Michael wrote: "Chapter 1: The reference to Michaelmas piqued my curiosity ..."

I explained this at the time Michael, as it is not the Autumn Equinox, as you assume. Charles Dickens tells us we are in November, not September. It is to do with the Courts' sessions. Please read LINK HERE

Nice points about Equity (I just paraphrased this as "fairness" in my summary, for brevity!) and the megalosaurus, which caught lots of people's attention too, as being a great metaphor for Chancery ...

I'm really pleased you've caught up Michael! Perhaps you can read the commentary too? The links are at the beginning of the thread.


message 431: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments This chapter is peppered with some delicious humor that takes the sting out of the introduction of Mr. Krook and the sad circumstances of the elderly woman (who I do not think is mad except in the way that the suit seems to drive people around the bend and become their sole focus in life).

When Esther gives Peepy his bath...At first I was in two minds about taking such a liberty, but I soon reflected that nobody in the house was likely to notice it.

One had only to fancy, as Richard whispered to Ada and me while we all stood looking in, that yonder bones in a corner, piled together and picked very clean, were the bones of clients, to make the picture complete.

Of course, in both instances there is a sadder truth at the heart of the humor, which is so often so with Dickens.

For some reason I kept doing rhyming in my head with Krook. Of course, there is the obvious possibility that he is a crook indeed, but I also kept think "nook" because things are pushed into every nook and cranny, and spook because he is a little bit that as well, fingering Ada's hair with his "yellow" fingers.

Even the reprehensible seeming Krook is not as bad a Chancery, however, because even he declined to skin the cat.

After the disgusting breakfast on soiled linens and amid the detritus of days, it would be a relief for our group to move on, I should think.


message 432: by Piyangie (last edited Mar 03, 2022 11:13AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Piyangie I was thinking whether Mrs. Jellyby's over-enthusiasm for the welfare in Africa while her household is in disarray and her children neglected was Dickens's way of mocking the government's concern over its international affairs to the negligence of its domestic problems.


message 433: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Piyangie wrote: "Dickens's way of mocking the government's concern over its international affairs to the negligence of its domestic problems...."

On one level yes! Great observation Piyangie :)


message 434: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 194 comments Chapter 5
I note that Dickens refrains from identifying the “little old lady” by any sort of name, leading me to suggest that she is in effect an archetype, symbolically representing the hordes of plaintiffs who vainly seek justice at the court of Chancery, eternally haunting the premises in hopes of having their case finally dealt with. But what are we to make of Krook, this strange old rag-picker and his ominous references to the dire cloud of misfortune hovering over Jarndyce? Although his prattle at times appears foolish or simply presumptuous, he appears to know a great deal about Jarndyce, in fact more than the young cousins who are themselves participants (dare we say victims?) of the case. Is it just idle gossip or is there menace brewing?

And there’s more symbolism here: Krook is engaged in gathering up all of the castoffs, the detritus of London: the wreckage that’s left behind as lives, fortunes, reputations are destroyed, whether victims of Chancery, business failure, collateral damage, the winds of change or the wages of sin. He is first cousin to the bailiff in bankruptcy, the undertaker and the gravedigger. Perhaps once Chancery is finally finished with Jarndyce, whatever is left will be what falls to Krook.

Reading this scene I was reminded of Macbeth’s encounter with the witches who foretell his fate. Eerily Shakespearean!


message 435: by Lee (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (leex1f98a) | 504 comments Natalie wrote: "It’s fun that we get to meet the little old lady again. I’m intrigued, like Jean mentioned, that we still haven’t learned her name. My heart went out to her when we learned about the reduced circum..."

“I have felt the cold here. I have felt something sharper than cold".

I am interested in the idea of this novel being considered Gothic >, and to "feel the cold" might hint that there are spirits in the room that are supernatural. Dickens believed in the concept of the spirit being separate from the body, judging by his fascination with hypnotizing others.

I had not ever thought of Dickens as a Gothic writer before today. But I note that the Bronte sisters were exploring this genre deeply. I would like to know of other early Gothic writers. I know the idea continued in popularity throughout the 19th century.

(struggling with bold font, sorry)



message 436: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments And Krook is the source of our finally knowing some of the details of Tom Jarndyce's suicide. I felt extremely sorry for him. It is strange how Dickens can create an intimate portrait in just a few paragraphs. I felt acutely the despair of Tom Jarndyce.


message 437: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 11:43AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Jim wrote: "she is in effect an archetype, symbolically representing the hordes of plaintiffs who vainly seek justice at the court of Chancery, ..."

There are certainly hordes of plaintiffs, but this lady and her birds, forever caged (metaphorically like the plaintiffs), is very much an individual. Her manner too is distinctive, so she's not merely an archetype, no. We await her name!

Yes, there's fantastic symbolism in this chapter :)

Some of the adaptations and illustrators divulge the little old lady's name immediately, by the way, but it's good to draw attention to the fact that the author did not!

Sara - I like your quotations and insights.

Lee - you just have an extra > after the word "gothic". If you edit it out the html will be perfect!

Michael - Another nice point, but please LINK HERE before going any further.


message 438: by Greg (last edited Mar 03, 2022 12:06PM) (new)

Greg | 201 comments I liked this chapter, and I don't know if others felt this way, but I felt a little sorry for Krook. He's one of those people that is slightly offputting or creepy and would probably make most people unconfortable. As Petra said, some of his behaviors such as fingering Ada's hair are creepy, but there's no evidence of him being harmful yet. Between his offputting behavior and the hoarding, I imagine his life being lonely.

The elderly lady might not be mad, but she does seem a bit confused at points, probably due to the very long strain of the pending judgement she expects. And like Jean, I found the birds in the cages remarkably poignant.

I liked the small taste of superstition here too, with the other mysterious lodger who is only briefly mentioned . . . the law writer, who supposedly sold his soul to the devil.

Overall, these denizens of Krook's shop seem in various ways either isolated or forgotten or both; it strikes me as very sad.

Natalie, like you, I found the suggestion of how the lawsuit has put many relations at odds haunting . . . especially as it comes right before lines centering on Ada and Richard. I hope the lawsuit doesn't come between them! I like both of them, and Richard won a piece of my heart by discreetly leaving some money for the elderly lady. This lawsuit has such a terrible legacy of human pain; that much is already clear. It would be such a shame if it were to corrupt these kind young people as well.


Lori  Keeton | 1111 comments I loved the Furniss sketch of Mr. Krook. Very ghoulish and exactly as I was picturing him. I have to agree with those who have already said that Krook is mad but the old lady is not. I also think that some of his hoards of paper may contain something quite important for the future of the case.

Thanks, Jean for clarifying for me that it's important to look on Esther's narration with a different lens and with a bit of caution. So I have read the chapter today with this insight.

Everyone has really hit on all of the facets that went through my mind as I read.


message 440: by Sam (new)

Sam | 445 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Sam wrote: ""The Circus Animal's Desertion," which I think alludes directly to this chapter in the last stanza. ..."

Nice idea, but I think the only connection is the imagery, as you said. [author..."


I haven't read Bleak House. I am a Bleak House Virgin. I have read six of Dickens' novels, though.

You are right about Yeats--that it is only imagery-- but it is a happy thought if one were to think that in old age, reflecting on the works of his youth, asking where in himself his poems were born, Yeats remembered and described a scene from a novel that might have inspired him. I am a hopeless sentimentality whenever I get a chance.


message 441: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 12:13PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Sam wrote: "You are right about Yeats--that it is only imagery ... but it is a happy thought if ... Yeats remembered and described a scene from a novel that might have inspired him. I am a hopeless sentimentality whenever I get a chance ..."

Ah yes, that is a nice thought :) I had assumed you meant there was a more direct connection, which I hadn't picked up.

Thanks for answering whether it's a reread for you Sam! It's good to know that your thoughts are analytical - and probably intuitive - from all the works by Charles Dickens that you have read :)


Shirley (stampartiste) | 507 comments What a dark chapter, and so much more to think about!

As Dickens points out, Mr. Krook is known as the Lord Chancellor, and his shop as the Chancery. And it was so revealing when Krook made the comparisons by stating:
I have so many things here, of so many kinds and all,… wasting away and going to rack and ruin,… so many old parchmentses and papers in my stock,… a liking for rust and must and cobwebs,… I can’t bear to part with anything I once lay hold of,… to alter anything, or to have any sweeping, nor scouring, nor cleaning, nor repairing going on about me.
Just like Krook, any case that came into the Chancery came there to wither and rust.

I also wondered at Krook’s name. The saying “by hook or by crook” is an old one. I wondered if Dickens was saying that, “by any means necessary”, the Chancery could drag on a case as long as it was useful and profitable for them to do so.

As to the Jellyby children, I too feel so sorry for them. As Esther and her companions were leaving, the Jellyby children “got up behind the barouche and fell off, and we saw them with great concern, scattered over the surface of Thavies Inn, as we rolled out of its precincts.”. I felt so sorry for all these children, who just wanted to be loved and cared for!

Regarding the illustrations, I couldn’t help but notice that, in four of the five illustrations, the illustrators prominently displayed a doll hanging by the top of its head. As I didn’t read anything like that in the story, is there a symbol that I am missing in this unique repetition?


message 443: by Bridget (last edited Mar 03, 2022 01:51PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bridget | 1025 comments I was struck by the hanging dolls as well, Shirley. Perhaps a metaphor for all the lives "hung" about and stalled by Chancery never giving them a resolution.

And akin to that I noticed the Phiz illustration shows the unbalanced scale in the bottom left corner. It made me think of this description:

The litter of rags tumbled partly into and partly out of a one-legged wooden scale, hanging without counterpoise from a beam, might have been counsellors' bands and gowns torn up

The wooden scale I pictured is one we see on many Law Office advertisements even today, two scales balancing each other symbolizing "the scales of justice" But here Charles Dickens describes an unbalanced scale, that on one end is filled with used counsellor's clothes. And the scale "hangs" instead of being balanced. Perhaps indicating plaintiffs receive "hangings" instead of "justice".

The whole feel of Krook's shop is, to me, "unbalanced". It's a shop that only buys and never sells. It is a sort of dark shadow of the Chancery (which is an unhappy place to begin with) where all the Chancery's refuse ends up. How could Krook not be a bit mad, being the caretaker of this flotsam washed up from such an unhappy place. I feel like he is somehow the embodiment of the "spirit" of the Chancery - if such a thing could even exist.

I think that's why -as many others have commented - I feel a little sorry for Krook . . . even though he can be ghoulish.


Janelle | 0 comments Shirley and Bridget, I’m glad you mentioned the hanging doll wasn’t in the text, when I saw it in the illustrations I thought I must’ve missed something! Such a dark image to include.


message 445: by Nancy (new)

Nancy (truthfulreviewer) | 13 comments I was going to join this Bleak House reading, but after my husband and I watched the movie(which leaves the viewer guessing, unless she has read the book), I didn't want to get back into it. It depressed me, too dark and sad. Yes, there were a few bright spots, but I just couldn't go through that again.


message 446: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Mar 03, 2022 02:28PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
I love your interpretation of these illustrations Bridget! In Harry Furniss's illustration the hanging doll seems so prominent, that as Shirley says, it is surely emblematic.

There are only 4 illustrations by Sir John Gilbert, R.A. overall, and although this one is naturalistic, it doesn't seem to match what Charles Dickens actually wrote. One critic remarked:

"Generously, Gilbert dramatizes ​Krook as a Prospero-like guide for the young, middle-class visitors to his cavernous emporium; his odd manner of dress, suggesting eighteenth-century male fashion, contrasts​ the contemporary, "respectable" upper-middle class fashions of his visitors."

Hablot Knight Browne, Sir John Gilbert, R.A. and Harry Furniss all suggest the chaotic nature of Krook's shop by the books, boots,​ paraphernalia and and portmanteaus in the foreground. But Hablot Knight Browne, Sir John Gilbert, R.A. depict Krook neutrally, just as "an old man in spectacles and a hairy cap ... carrying about a lantern".

Harry Furniss however focuses on Krook's crooked figure without providing much background. Nor do we have a sense of who Krook is looking at, as he glances nervously over his shoulder at us. His splayed fingers and angular legs make him seem decidedly odd, if not insane. Several of us noticed this description:

"he was short, cadaverous, and withered; with his head sideways between his shoulders, and the breath issuing in visible smoke from his mouth, as if he were on fire within. His throat, chin, and eyebrows were so frosted with white hairs, and so gnarled with veins and puckered skin, that he looked from his breast upward, like some old root in a fall of snow."

So Harry Furniss draws Krook as not merely eccentric, but demented, his goggle eyes implying a manic or disturbed personality. On the other hand, Fred Barnard shows him as a relatively normal person, but in slightly peculiar clothing, as he narrates the story of ​the​ Jarndyce and Jarndyce Chancery suit.

All these illustrators show Krook as an extension of his shop, but Harry Furniss focuses on his figure, and places the cat Lady Jane in a prominent position, on his shoulder, rather than in a less conspicuous position, as in Fred Barnard's illustration. This seems significant too.


message 447: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Sorry you're not joining us after all Nancy, but these threads will still be here, whenever you feel ready.


message 448: by John (new) - rated it 3 stars

John I was left wondering whether Krook was excited by the hair because his shop doesn't do well overall, but he makes money on wigs? His spelling out the letters like that brought to mind the biblical 'Handwriting on the Wall' strongly.

I understand Victorian convention well, but if his wife is that uninterested in domestic matters, surely Mr. Jellyby could step in a bit on seeing that the household runs a bit more smoothly?


message 449: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments Interesting that you mention the doll, Shirley, as I noticed it carried over into all the illustrations. I wondered if it was a subtle reminder of the buried doll that Esther left behind. (not suggesting, of course, that that doll and this one are the same).

The illustration do give us differing images of Krook, but I thought the fingering of Ada's hair was ghoulish and suggested he is a tad demented...and, of course, the little lady did try to tell us that a number of times. M's the word.


message 450: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Mr. Jellyby seems to have given up! Why else would he lean with his head on the wall? From Esther's account, he seems to be clinically depressed.

I assume Krook sells the hair to wigmakers. That was quite a lucrative practise, as was selling the bones he also has stored, for glue and so on.

This is how Krook makes his money. It all seems a bit gruesome to us!


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