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Bleak House
Bleak House - Group Read 4
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Bleak House: Chapters 1 - 10
Jean, thank you for the information on Walter Savage Landon being the basis for Boythorn. The name "Boythorn" is interesting. Could Dickens be suggesting that Boythorn is somehow still a bit immature or unworldly (boy) and is rather problematic or prickly (thorn)? I guess time will tell us more about him.
At the moment, he's pleasant company for an evening or two, but with yelling and the antics he might pull if annoyed (gate burning, for example), he could be a lot to have on hand for a longer period of time.
I agree with Fiona about Mr. Guppy. Something is up and he sees a richer future with Esther.
Esther must resemble Lady Dedlock which, if true, Mr. Guppy had noticed. With his intimate knowledge of the Jarndyce & Jarndyce case, he's in a good position to know what moneys are at stake and where they may be dispersed.
Marrying Esther seems to mean that his future prospects would be much brighter.
Esther's likely resemblance to Lady Dedlock had me thinking again about her parentage. Her mother seems to have been the sister of her Godmother/Aunt. Perhaps her father is the brother of Lady Dedlock?
It's a bit concerning that Richard lets money slip through his fingers so easily. It was nice that he gave the bricklayer's family so much. That shows a generous and kind heart. But he has no sense of saving for the future, it seems.
It was interesting that Esther's doll was again mentioned. We haven't heard about her since her burial.
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Petra - excellent analysis about the name Boy-thorn! I like that idea a lot :) It seems very apposite.
We have a thread all about Charles Dickens's family, including some posts about Walter's siblings.
*Edited - crossposted!
Natalie, I also wondered whether Lady Dedlock was Boythorn's lost love. It would be difficult to live next door to her all these years. Perhaps it also explains why he's so much a "thorn" in the side of Lord Dedlock.
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I'm not sure if you meant this, but we mustn't group them together. None of the three: Richard, Ada or Esther, knew of or had met each other before the day they met at the Chancery Court.
My felings about Guppy's intentions mirrored Fiona's. I liked how Dickens portrayed Esther's wariness around the man with a mix of humor and true apprehension.
Jean, I hadn't thought much about Walter Dickens' naming. I'm not familiar with Dickens' relationship with Landon. I did look up his bio on Wikipedia and found this rather sad:
"Walter Dickens showed early signs of aspiring to be an author like his father, but Charles Dickens instructed Walter's tutor to encourage him to not write, stating "The less he is encouraged to write the better, and the happier he will be". "
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What might the doll represent, in this case?
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He did have very decided views about what he want his sons to do, as you know of course, from our side read of The Life of Charles Dickens: The Illustrated Edition by John Forster.
Kathleen wrote: "Hello everyone, again. I’m the other Kathleen..."
Since I'm new to the group, you are clearly the first Kathleen, Kathleen, and not the "other," and I'm happy to join you in representing the Kathleens of the world here! :-)
Jean, "What do you think to the last part, anyone, about Guppy's proposal reminding her about how she buried her doll? "I think that by burying her doll Esther was saying goodbye to childhood and to what she erroneously considered a childish desire for love. She felt love only for and between herself and her doll. She's now an adult and very responsible (one of the most or the most responsible adult that we've met so far in BH). Guppy's protestations of love unearthed her old longing for love. This is why she had to so sternly and irrevocably dissuade Guppy and get him out of her presence.
I have to agree with Fiona and others about Guppy’s proposal to Esther. I believe he saw something in that portrait that led him to believe that Esther is somehow related to M. Dedlock. This looks like a cynical ploy for money to me.As for the link to her memory of dolly, perhaps this is the first time since that burial that her emotions have been that high and confused. She seems to try to control her emotions much of the time, maybe because she wasn’t allowed to express them when she was a child. But, if I’m remembering correctly, she did express them with her dolly.
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But both these ideas are rather sad - and quite possible - in that Esther still has difficulty in expressing her emotions.
Bionic Jean wrote: "... I personally think Charles Dickens created an ambiguous character in Esther; outwardly modest, but quick, and with a keen eye for irony, which she records. A truly simple young woman would not have seen Mrs. Pardiggle with such a clear eye ..."This is an excellent point, Jean, and I appreciate you bringing it up. It is possible for someone to appear modest and lacking in confidence, while at the same time have powers of wisdom and perception that they will in time learn to trust. I'm hoping we'll discover this is the case for Esther.
Also, about Richard and his view of money, I think this is definitely a concern. It sounded like he was manipulating the situation to his favor, so he may be ignorant of money but he may be a little calculating. Either way, it presents a possible future problem for Ada.
About Guppy, he sort of rubs me the wrong way, so I’m happy to imagine that he has ulterior motives, based on some knowledge he has of Esther’s possible inheritance, maybe because he sees a resemblance with Lady Dedlock, as Fiona suggested.
Natalie and Petra, I too was thinking Mr. Boythorn could have been in love with Lady Dedlock, due to his voicing such a high opinion of her and his dislike of her husband.
Jean, "But both these ideas are rather sad - and quite possible - in that Esther still has difficulty in expressing her emotions." I don't think that she even knows what she feels. Her feelings are buried for now....But I have the feeling that they are beginning to make themselves known. Feelings have a way of rising to the surface.
Speaking of feelings, giving Guppy the benefit of the doubt I think that he believes he loves Esther with a pure heart. I think it is quite possible that the aura of money surrounding Esther (for him) may have influenced his love for her. Wealth does often change the way people are viewed. Perhaps he feels and believes that he is sincere, unaware that the money has influenced him.
Anne (On semi-hiatus) wrote: "... She felt love only for and between herself and her doll."I love this idea, Anne, sad as it is. This could be the very reason for her burying the doll, that she felt she must accept that she was to go forth in the world without love, so buried the whole idea of sharing that with another. Very perceptive--thanks!
Thank you, Kathleen. It is sad but she is now in the world and learning about many things which she didn't know as an adult. As Jean has reminded us a few times, Esther doesn't have very high self esteem because she didn't grow up with love. She probably doesn't think that she deserves love. I have the feeling that this will change over the course of the book. She is very loving and is surrounded by people who love her. That must eventually have an impact, no?
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Charles Dickens is keeping so many things ambiguous, whilst feeding us little bits of clues now and then :)
Mr. Guppy's proposal was comical. :) It reminded me of Mr. Collins's proposal to Elizabeth Bennett in Pride and Prejudice!
Petra - I like that idea of Boy + thorn. I know people find him obnoxious. but I really do love his character. :D He makes me laugh and I like people that are willing to just speak their minds. (Probably because I'm more reserved!) He would be a lot to have around all the time, though!!Jean - Yes, I did know they were all raised separately, sorry if I was confusing in my wording. :) I was wondering who had charge of Ada and of Richard before they were brought together. They seem quite genteel, so I'm guessing they were raised in nice places, perhaps a school, similar to Esther. I always wonder how background contributes to character.
I noticed that bit about the doll at the end, but was having a hard time making a connection to Guppy, so I really appreciate your thoughts, Anne and Sue. That seems right to me. To me, it always seems that Esther is trying to overcome her birth and prove that she is deserving of love, she doesn't believe that she is worthy of being loved on her own. I like what you said, Anne, about burying feelings, but they often rise to the surface anyway...
Piyangie - Ah, Mr. Collins. :D One of my most favorite proposal scenes of all time. Delightfully awkward. I hadn't made that connection with Guppy, but I see it now. Lol! Especially with that image that Jean posted by Furniss. You could totally see Mr. Collins approaching Elizabeth that way.
This may be too much of a present day thought and not applicable to the times in which the characters in Bleak House lived so please ignore if that is the case. Thinking about Esther's vision of childhood and adulthood made me think about several of the characters along these lines. Esther is a very responsible adult, taking care of others while she is barely out of childhood. On the other hand, we have several characters who are chronologically adult but behave like irresponsible children, at least at times. For instance, Richard and his easy way with money. "Boythorn" and his antics. Dickens must have used the term "boy" in his name for a reason. There's even a bit of childishness about Jarndyce in his sweetness and his inability to take credit for any of his kindness. And last but not least, Skimpole - everyone must take care of him. He behaves like an irresponsible child.
I do not like to specuate too much prefering to let the author unveil, but Esther having been abandoned and emotionally abused would develop trust issues. During everyday interactions she is able to put on a persona which does not show her vulnerabilty. With something as personal as a marriage proposal, she is forced to confront her lack of self-esteem and those trust issues. I equate this with the doll because despite whether she chose to leave the doll or was not able to bring it, she would suffer a sense of loss, triggering the same uncomfortable feelings she feels when thinking of her self worth or of being loved and not abandoned. That is my alternate take on Esther's feelings regarding the doll and marriage proposal.
Anne (On semi-hiatus) wrote: "This may be too much of a present day thought and not applicable to the times in which the characters in Bleak House lived so please ignore if that is the case. Thinking about Esther's vision of ch..."That's very insightful Anne. You've given me a lot to think about with how many childlike adults are in this novel. Dickens is surely doing that on purpose.
Regarding Jean's question about what Esther's doll represents, the word that came to mind for me while reading that paragraph was "loneliness". I think Esther was lonely as a child and the doll was her only friend. I think she hoped by moving to a new place she would make new friends and no longer need her doll. Hence the doll's burial, which can be seen as a hopeful act, and not a morose one.
At Bleak House she is well loved by everyone, but she spends most of her time with two people who are falling in love. In essence she's a third wheel. I don't know about you all, but I've been a third wheel before, and it can feel rather lonely - even though I'm not alone. Maybe Guppy's marriage proposal brought to mind for Esther that she really doesn't have anything that is just her own. She lives in someone else's house. And of course Ada will belong to Richard soon enough. Where does that leave Esther?
I had the same thoughts as so many others about Guppy connecting the similarities in appearance of Lady Dedlock's portrait and Esther and concluding the two women have "consanguinity". But then I wondered, why doesn't Mr. Boythorn also see the similarity? I got the feeling Mr. Boythorn has seen Lady Dedlock in person because he had many flattering things to say about her. If that's the case, why doesn't he also see the similarity with Esther?
Natalie wrote: "Scene 2: Boythorn
Love, love, love this character! He made me so happy! I loved how boisterous and jolly he appeared and how much he loved his little bird. (Another sign or token??) He might b..."
I love, love, love Mr. Boythorn too, Natalie. I love that Dickens draws him as such a contradiction. He's loud and brash and aggressive; but then he is gentle and delicate with a little bird. Just brilliant!
I also liked that you pointed out Skimpole wasn't at the dinner. Good observation. I hadn't thought of that.
Bridget, "But then I wondered, why doesn't Mr. Boythorn also see the similarity? I got the feeling Mr. Boythorn has seen Lady Dedlock in person because he had many flattering things to say about her. If that's the case, why doesn't he also see the similarity with Esther? "That's so true... Great point.
I also adore Boythorn.
Maybe Boythorn is so infatuated with Lady Dedlock that he isn’t really seeing these new people around him well. Perhaps at some point he will. That will be an interesting moment!
Chapter 9.This chapter is especially rich in character development. The jovial Boythorn, a man who constantly dwells in the superlative, is a delightfully raucous ray of sunshine. He’s the first person thus far in the novel who seems to have arrived at the best “measure of reform” of chancery, namely for the whole thing to be “blown to atoms with ten thousand hundredweight of gunpowder”!
Meanwhile, Dickens quite subtly gives us a continually emerging picture of Esther’s character: although in her instinctive modesty she refers to herself as a person of little consequence and “not clever” it’s clear that she has seamlessly taken on the entire management of the Jarndyce household with remarkable self-assurance. Her poise is further demonstrated by the manner in which she skillfully turns aside the unexpected and unwelcome declarations of that minor nuisance, Guppy. He certainly has a fixation upon Esther, along with a breathless sense of his own upward mobility; a panting puppy with visions of becoming a big dog. Whether we should take him seriously or not remains unclear.
I have noticed several instances where Esther doesn't look directly at Mr. Guppy as he is certainly gazing at her. She is looking away but completely aware of other eyes upon her. For a girl who hasn't been brought up with love or affection, I can completely understand why the eyes upon her would make her uncomfortable. Now that she is seeing the love forming between Richard and Ada, she is curious about it but not sure if she deserves it. That third wheel that Bridget spoke of, never feels at ease and often undeserving of happiness. This is my favorite chapter so far. I love the whimsical nature with Boythorn and his canary, the robust man and the delicate bird. His bird is not caged so this seems to be representing Boythorn's freedom to do as he wants as with the trespassing suit against Sir Dedlock.
I also rather like Mr. Guppy. I actually didn't realize he was young until this chapter or maybe I just didn't think about his age until now. If he is to be Esther's suitor, would Mr. Jarndyce be the one to approve of the courting since he is her guardian? Seems as if Guppy might have asked him beforehand. And the bear grease he has put on has to be the grossest thing about his entire fancy outfit. This made me think of Little Dorrit's suitor, John Chivery.
One other quote that shows that Esther might actually deep down be glad that Mr. Guppy is taking an interest:
I had had some idea that the clerk who was to be sent down might be the young gentleman who had met me at the coach-office, and I was glad to see him, because he was associated with my present happiness.
Thani you everyone for the insights into the doll. It resonates that Esther's recollection of the doll stems from her feeling of unworthiness in Love. In a way, it's nice to think that perhaps this emotional outbreak means that she's slowly learning to believe in herself and her worth. Bridget, excellent point! Boythorn would have noticed a similarity, if Esther looked like Lady Dedlock. Hmmm......then what would motivate Mr. Guppy to such a declaration? Dickens sure knows how to keep the reader guessing.
I don't think Esther has third-wheel issues at all. A win-win for her if her dear friends get together, and she's left with a very comfortable position at Bleak House with an ever-so-nice Jarndyce (let's not dwell on Skimpole).I took Guppy as sincere in his proposal, though yes, Esther is at least tangentially involved with (if not related directly to) the Jarndyce family by now.
You are certainly right, John that Esther does win by having her dear friends together. And I don't mean at all that Richard and Ada are doing anything to exclude Esther. That's just the nature of young couples falling in love. You can see it in the Barnard illustration where Richard and Ada are leaning into each as if they aren't even aware of the other three people at the dinner table. I wonder how often Esther feels invisible when she's with them.It must be hard for Esther to always be the chaperone and never by the bride. She starts out laughing in her room, probably at the ridiculousness of Mr. Guppy with his lilac-kid gloves and his shiny suit, and his surprising proposal (she wasn't expecting it at all). But then she remembers her illegitimacy which I think makes marriage to a suitable man difficult for her, and cries. And that's where I think the loneliness comes in. She will have security in her position at Bleak House, but not a husband and children of her own.
Bridget wrote: "I had the same thoughts as so many others about Guppy connecting the similarities in appearance of Lady Dedlock's portrait and Esther and concluding the two women have "consanguinity". But then I..."
A very good point, Bridget. Looks like that theory is blown!
Mr. Boythorn is quite boisterous! I love the imagery of him "firing away those great blank guns" and the little canary that totally trusts him and he obviously greatly cares for adds such humor. I can just imagine him booming out his epitaphs about Dedlock with this little bird on his head, hopping around and moving its head side to side. I wonder if he gets his birds from the same place as the old lady? And I wonder when she will show up again!
In one of the first sentences of this chapter, Esther writes"My darling and I read together, and worked, and practised,"
What are they practicing?
Esther grew up in a small household and probably became very aware of household accounts, so she had some background for them.
Ada and Richard are a bit dreamy as they fall in love. They have no idea as to what their future will be. Will there be any money from the Chancery case for setting up a household? If Richard goes off to be a sailor, he will be gone for a long time, especially at first. Ah, first love! We are all so blinded by it!
It is hard to be the chaperone and not the chaperoned, but Esther does not seem to care. She has an important place in her new home. If Ada marries, Esther might have to chose whether to stay at Bleak House or to with Ada.
I love all the conjectures from everyone. I would never have put so many tidbits together if I was listening to this book on my own.
I wonder if maybe Esther ending the chapter thinking about her Dolly came from Mr Guppy speaking of his mother. Perhaps this reminded her that she never knew hers, and was raised by someone who didn't care for her to know that they were blood related.
I really enjoyed this chapter mostly because of Mr. Boythorn. Only Dickens would have made a character speak in superlatives all the time! I agree with Fiona and others that Mr. Guppy probably saw the similarities between Lady Dedlock and Esther. This makes me want to conclude that he only proposed out of interest and nothing more, but I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I also found interesting when Esther describes Mr. Guppy looking at her as "intently" or saying that it "confuses" her. As she grew up without love, it seems only natural that anyone looking at her with love would make her feel confused and a bit uncomfortable. However, in the past she has described other people's looks and gazes as filled with tenderness. This contrast makes Mr. Guppy's gazes seem of a different nature.
What Lori mentioned about the birds really made me wonder if the birds portrayed in this novel will always be representative of their owners. Both Esther's and the old lady's birds have been caged, representing their lack of circumstantial freedom. Meanwhile, Mr. Boythorn's bird is free to fly around which, as we have learnt from his personality and even his experience with the law, seems to fit him well.
What Anne mentioned about the doll representing the burial of her childish desire of love really his the point for me. It's interesting that the symbol (or token?) was brought back just at the end of the chapter. It made it more impactful than if it had been mentioned earlier.
One last thing I noticed is that Mr. Guppy was described almost in the opposite way of Mr. Jellyby and his dull clothes.
...glossy clothes on, a shining hat, ..., and a thick gold ring...
I want to say this is another way of keeping the light vs. dark theme going. It seems people that she approves of are always described as shining and bright. Although, Mr. Boythorn didn't seem as "glossy" as others....I wonder if it means anything.
I assume they were practicing music.
Also, remember the boy and the girl in chapter 1 who were without a guardian? Could they be Ada and Richard? or maybe Esther and Richard? It seems their grandfather is Tom Jarndyce, but they had a distant cousin (Dedlock?). I wonder if any of these kids is one of them or maybe I am getting my timeline mixed up.
Lorena, I think the boy and girl in chapter 1 are Ada and Richard. The Chancellor says "The two young people... who are now in my private room" and then, in chapter three, we are i the Chancellor's private room when Esther meets Ada and Richard.
Jenny wrote: "Lorena, I think the boy and girl in chapter 1 are Ada and Richard. The Chancellor says "The two young people... who are now in my private room" and then, in chapter three, we are i the Chancellor's..."Thanks, Jenny!
You're welcome Lorena:)
This was an interesting chapter. Like Natalie, I adored Mr. Boythorn. Yes, he is quite childish with his total lack of restraint, and it would be a little exhausting to deal with him in real life. But, the goodness of his intentions feels so evident to me, and I also think he would do next to anything to help a friend or someone who was counting on him. He feels life passionately! Even his bird, he feels must be the best of all birds, and he seems to truly believe it with his whole heart, no matter how ordinary a canary it may be!It's an interesting contrast with Mr. Skimpole, who more than once says that he should be supported by the common rabble because he feels life deeply and gets the most out of life. But in reality, he seems all talk and I haven't seen evidence yet of him being much invested in anything.
Mr. Boythorn by contrast feels life deeply in truth and doesn't need to say so; he's sure to get into trouble, yes, but it would be tough to doubt the truth of his passion!
As far as the meaning of the reference to the doll, it strikes me as crucial that just before that, Esther says she "felt as if an old chord had been . . . coarsely touched." Something about this proposal seems to have indeed reminded her of those feelings of her younger self that perhaps she felt she had buried so long ago with the doll.
Why "coarsely" though? On the surface, Mr. Guppy's proposal seems well meant. Maybe in that it is so abrupt and unexpected? Or maybe she does not trust in the truth of it as some others have said?
I felt like Esther's rejection of Mr. Guppy was quite harsh, and it was hard for me to understand why, given how gently she ordinarily treats everyone. Even Mrs. Pardiggle and Mrs. Jellyby provoke only the mildest comments from her, but with Mr. Guppy she is quite direct!
"Get up from that ridiculous position immediately, sir, or you will oblige me to break my implied promise and ring the bell!
Why is this? As you say Jean, it seems to be too much for her. I like what Anne and others say about it stirring up old feelings of need, loneliness, and yearning for love . . . and these relating to her feelings for the doll. But I still feel taken aback by the strength of Esther's reaction. I wonder if there will be more explanation later as we read further?
Anne, Greg and Bridget - Yay! I'm glad others love Boythorn too! :D Jim - I loved how you referred to him as a "raucous ray of sunshine."Lori - I like how you pointed out that Boythorn's bird is not caged. It made me think how Boythorn is happy and doesn't feel oppressed in any way, so his bird is free. Whereas the old woman keeps her birds caged, which is probably how she feels.
(Sorry Lorena, I'd already typed this and then saw that you wrote basically the same thing. We were thinking alike! :D )
I also liked the quote you shared about Guppy and Esther.
Sue - I think that's a great point about Boythorn not noticing the similarities (if there are any) because he's not thinking about it. Perhaps he's thinking more of her present looks, than how she looked when she was younger.
Bridget - I felt sad all over again with how you described Esther in her room. Those feelings can be so consuming and even when you know you're happy and doing well, you still sometimes ache for what (you think) you can't have.
Greg - I loved how you described Boythorn - that he may be a bit much, but he's so full of good intent. I think that's why I was so instantly drawn to him. He feels like the kind of person you could turn to in a crisis and he'd help you out of any jam, just because you asked.
Greg, knowing Dickens, I feel certain we will learn much more about Esther and Guppy and the whole situation. But how long he will take to tell us, now that’s difficult to say…and part of the enjoyment of reading his novels for me.
What marvelous thoughts and insights from everyone! I love Anne's theory of the meaning of the reference to the doll. I had thought that the burial of the doll was Esther's way of burying her life of being shamed and her sad, lonely childhood and embarking with a full heart into the new life at the school. I wonder if the "chord" Guppy struck was the reminder that she is still the product of a shameful union and that what he assumes of her (seeing her as a ward of Jarndyce) isn't really who she is.I wonder if his proposal could be motivated from greed, after all he knows all about the suit and it looks to me as if no one ever gets any money from the suit...so, even if Esther is part of that, it isn't likely to make her rich. I have taken rather a liking to him...so, I hope I am not wrong. I like that he offered to help her should she ever need him.
Boythorn is larger than life, and I find it a bit delightful that he is based on someone real. I must admire Dickens for the variety of friends he had. The bird was a lovely touch, and I immediately thought of the contrast between it and the caged birds. It stays of its own choice, which seems to me to make a statement about Boythorn himself. I'm a big believer in animals having a sense about people.
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Yes, this is the most likely for young ladies.
Also, as you point out, we have no indication that Esther feels at all excluded by Richard and Ada's burgeoning romance. The "third wheel" theory may apply to us, but not to Esther. On the contrary, she is grateful to have a home, to be loved, and to have a secure future as a housekeeper.
If there are any secret "what ifs", then Esther is an unreliable narrator and keeping them very close to her chest - or as Anne astutely says - she is just not aware of them herself.
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He is thinking about Guy Fawkes, (Guido Fawkes) and the Gunpowder Plot. Guy Fawkes and his friends planned to blow up the Houses of Parliament, King James I, his queen, and his eldest son on November 5, 1605. It was a conspiracy of English Roman Catholics (and was unsuccessful). You can read all about Guido Fawkes here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes
In England we still commemorate November 5th with fireworks, and "Guys" are burned on bonfires throughout the land.
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Books mentioned in this topic
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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Again though, Natalie and John, Esther is proud to be in the position she now is. She feels loved and valued, and is not a 21st century woman, with present day aspirations. Also, we always need to bear her past history in mind.
Do you think Esther would keep repeating these nicknames if she was not happy with them? They make her feel accepted. She is only about a year older than Richard but is being treated as a wiser, far older person.
The fashion for wanting to be young is comparatively recent!