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Bleak House
Bleak House - Group Read 4
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Bleak House: Chapters 1 - 10
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Greg
(last edited Mar 07, 2022 11:22AM)
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Mar 07, 2022 11:21AM

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Natalie - yes, that's what it meant to be a gentleman - the "landed gentry" never work. Mr. Darcy was a landowner of a huge country estate.
Just as an aside, everyone, you know how we always say "Mr. Darcy" and never "Fitzwilliam"? Well even though this is decades later, we're not likely to hear Mr. Jarndyce called "John". I had to rack my brains who was meant LOL! It's always Mr. Jarndyce or "Guardian" (from Esther) or "cousin" from Ada, or his full name "John Jarndyce" in legal matters.
Just as an aside, everyone, you know how we always say "Mr. Darcy" and never "Fitzwilliam"? Well even though this is decades later, we're not likely to hear Mr. Jarndyce called "John". I had to rack my brains who was meant LOL! It's always Mr. Jarndyce or "Guardian" (from Esther) or "cousin" from Ada, or his full name "John Jarndyce" in legal matters.

Actually, my understanding is that, in upper-class 19th-century households, both in England and America, generally the lady of the house (if there was one) was the keeper of the keys, and this indicated her position of status and authority. (For instance, in Gwen Bristow's novel Deep Summer, when the "great lady" Judith Larne gives the bunch of keys to the plantation house over to her new daughter-in-law, it's very much a symbolic big deal, indicating transfer of status and authority within the family.

Thank you!

...so many names of that sort that my own name soon became lost among them.
I hope she doesn't lose herself in the new labels that are becoming attached to her. I hope that she will not be disappointed when she does find out who she really is.
message 656:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 07, 2022 03:07PM)
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Yes, Sara and Werner as I said in that post referred to, (468 was it? Thanks Greg!) Esther is now in a highly respected position. For those in our first group read, remember in David Copperfield, how David's mother (view spoiler) and how this was the worst possible insult she could think of?
Another example is Mrs. Rouncewell. In fact she is not the "Lady of the house" because in this case the aristocracy are far too much above things to be bothered with keys! But Mrs. Rouncewell is the next best thing, and it shows how trusted and respected she is.
Mrs. Rouncewell hopes to train the maid Rosa to become a housekeeper, so has been giving her practice in showing visitors round. There were two ways of becoming a housekeeper - either:
1. by working their way up, like this, (Mrs. Roucewell herself has spent all her life at Chesney Wold) or
2. having the position of housekeeper conferred on them, as "impoverished gentlefolk". Esther has no experience in any work of this sort, so Mr. Jarndyce is treating Esther as the latter. He is showing her great kindness and respect, and it is a complete surprise to Esther to be given such responsibility. She carries her little basket of keys round with great pride, and does her work diligently.
Petra - "She leaves the breakfast room in the middle of breakfast, which makes me believe she's there to serve, not partake."
No. The reason Esther got up from the table when Mr. Skimpole was "droning on" (pun!), was not because she did not eat with the family - she does. (I think you may already have picked this up, now :)) But she is also aware that she has things to do, organising the house, sewing and so on. So by staying listening when it is not necessary, would be a daytime luxury which she does not allow herself. Nobody has told her to do this, but she feels the responsibility. In the evenings, she may relax a little more. You will probably notice that whenever Esther goes out, she tells us that she attends to her household duties first. She is proud of this, and does not feel at all taken advantage of, but rather, honoured by it.
Because she is now the housekeeper, but she is primarily a companion to Ada, she is in a unique position. Yes, Esther has duties, but is also part of the family. If she had not been given the position of housekeeper, then she would have had to leave "Bleak House" as soon as Ada got married and therefore no longer needed a companion - and since Ada is about 17, that could be any time. Esther's position now is far more secure, and it is a great relief to her. She could expect it to last all her life.
I don't know the book you mention Werner, but I would think that American manners of this class replicated English ones. It's good to see you joining in, and I hope you're enjoying the novel! :)
Another example is Mrs. Rouncewell. In fact she is not the "Lady of the house" because in this case the aristocracy are far too much above things to be bothered with keys! But Mrs. Rouncewell is the next best thing, and it shows how trusted and respected she is.
Mrs. Rouncewell hopes to train the maid Rosa to become a housekeeper, so has been giving her practice in showing visitors round. There were two ways of becoming a housekeeper - either:
1. by working their way up, like this, (Mrs. Roucewell herself has spent all her life at Chesney Wold) or
2. having the position of housekeeper conferred on them, as "impoverished gentlefolk". Esther has no experience in any work of this sort, so Mr. Jarndyce is treating Esther as the latter. He is showing her great kindness and respect, and it is a complete surprise to Esther to be given such responsibility. She carries her little basket of keys round with great pride, and does her work diligently.
Petra - "She leaves the breakfast room in the middle of breakfast, which makes me believe she's there to serve, not partake."
No. The reason Esther got up from the table when Mr. Skimpole was "droning on" (pun!), was not because she did not eat with the family - she does. (I think you may already have picked this up, now :)) But she is also aware that she has things to do, organising the house, sewing and so on. So by staying listening when it is not necessary, would be a daytime luxury which she does not allow herself. Nobody has told her to do this, but she feels the responsibility. In the evenings, she may relax a little more. You will probably notice that whenever Esther goes out, she tells us that she attends to her household duties first. She is proud of this, and does not feel at all taken advantage of, but rather, honoured by it.
Because she is now the housekeeper, but she is primarily a companion to Ada, she is in a unique position. Yes, Esther has duties, but is also part of the family. If she had not been given the position of housekeeper, then she would have had to leave "Bleak House" as soon as Ada got married and therefore no longer needed a companion - and since Ada is about 17, that could be any time. Esther's position now is far more secure, and it is a great relief to her. She could expect it to last all her life.
I don't know the book you mention Werner, but I would think that American manners of this class replicated English ones. It's good to see you joining in, and I hope you're enjoying the novel! :)

The discussion of everything has been fantastic and seems to have covered everything I noticed in my reading. Heaven help anyone who becomes involved with Mrs Pardiggle’s sons when they are a little older.

I agree Sue. The "Growelry" is so wonderfully unpretentious and shows some self-awareness at the same time. He makes everyone feel at home.
message 659:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 07, 2022 01:17PM)
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Don't you just love Fred Barnard's illustration of the little darlings? And their gentle mama? :D
(Use Nisa's great link for speed!)
(Use Nisa's great link for speed!)

That's true - it's another way it can be spoiled :( I collected all these last summer, ready. It was the first thing I did :)


Thank you, Jean! I appreciate all this information. I'm glad to see that Esther is being given respect and security by Mr. Jarndyce.
That's wonderful. I like him even more now.

With that little gem, and then her empathy and compassionate reaction to the death of the baby, I thought we got more insight into Ada in this chapter.

Sara and Petra - I've been thinking that Esther has been treated very kindly. I liked the background info Jean gave us about the keys. I am worried about Esther, though, I couldn't find the comment from earlier, but someone mentioned that things are looking "too good" at Bleak House and I'm worried about what the means for the future!


I'm enjoying these conversations immensely. When I read I have this narrow view, based on my own background, and then I come here and see all the other perspectives and insights people have and can feel my brain "blossoming." :)

The last week was extremely hectic so I’m just catching up. Today I spent many hours reading the previous posts and then listening to Chapter 8.
Thank you, Jean, for all the excellent summaries, background information, illustrations and clarifications. And I loved the great conversations between everyone. They are so thorough that I have little to add.
I was disappointed that none of the illustrators chose to show us Bleak House. I was looking forward to their interpretations.
Chapter 8 was so long that I was sure that I had missed a chapter break and that Esther’s morning at Bleak House was one chapter and that the scenes with Mrs. Pardiggle and the bricklayers house was really the next chapter.
I rather agree with Petra, that, while Esther was given an important position, she was not asked or consulted about it. Has she ever had a choice of anything in her life? She did not choose to be sent to school, or to leave it. It’s possible that she might have stayed there forever as an assistant. She did not choose to have a guardian. Her role has always been as an inferior person. She might be the most important servant in the household, but, still, she is a servant. This reflects the roles of women, money and opportunity in previous times.

Sara - That's funny! I didn't notice that about the hats in the illustrations!

Richard is 19 and Ada is 17 (or 16?).

Perhaps I am reading with a more modern lens than is needed or wanted. Women (and men) didn't have as many choices as we do today. Esther would be in need of a Guardian/Benefactor in her situation.
I'm glad she found such a caring one as Mr. Jarndyce. I hope he is as warm-hearted and good as he appears.
message 673:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 07, 2022 02:39PM)
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Sara wrote: "Is this a class distinction as well? Would workers simply have not owned top hats and upper class considered the flat hats like work clothes?..."
Very definitely yes. It still applies really, except that hats are worn less frequently. But "flat caps" are worn by tradesmen, and top hats by the toffs. In practice, top hats tend to be hired for special occasions, such as weddings - but again - only for show.
Do you remember in Dombey and Son Dr. Blimber's school for little gentlemen, and Phiz's delightful illustration of the top-hatted class of young gents? LINK HERE
It's the second illustration down in that post.
Also, if you think of the popular image of the "artful dodger" from Oliver Twist, he always wears a very battered top hat. This is funny precisely because it is so wrong! He's acting like a "little gentleman", and the other lads tease him, because he is really just a boy on the streets!
Have you watched the short video "Victorian Life" on our home page? (Scroll to the bottom of the page.) It's actual film of poor and working folk on the streets. They are all wearing flat caps :)
Very definitely yes. It still applies really, except that hats are worn less frequently. But "flat caps" are worn by tradesmen, and top hats by the toffs. In practice, top hats tend to be hired for special occasions, such as weddings - but again - only for show.
Do you remember in Dombey and Son Dr. Blimber's school for little gentlemen, and Phiz's delightful illustration of the top-hatted class of young gents? LINK HERE
It's the second illustration down in that post.
Also, if you think of the popular image of the "artful dodger" from Oliver Twist, he always wears a very battered top hat. This is funny precisely because it is so wrong! He's acting like a "little gentleman", and the other lads tease him, because he is really just a boy on the streets!
Have you watched the short video "Victorian Life" on our home page? (Scroll to the bottom of the page.) It's actual film of poor and working folk on the streets. They are all wearing flat caps :)
message 674:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 07, 2022 02:51PM)
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Kathleen! Yay - it's great to have you with us again for our group read :) And well done for reading everything so far! I know that's quite a tall order, but hopefully you should be fine now :)
Great observations - and yes the chapter lengths do vary. Charles Dickens kept the same length overall in each installment, but there are definitely chapters within these where, like you, I feel a natural break in the middle!
Petra is right about the ages, everyone. They are in the summary for chapter 3, when we first meet the wards of Jarndyce.
Great observations - and yes the chapter lengths do vary. Charles Dickens kept the same length overall in each installment, but there are definitely chapters within these where, like you, I feel a natural break in the middle!
Petra is right about the ages, everyone. They are in the summary for chapter 3, when we first meet the wards of Jarndyce.
Bridget wrote: "I thought we got more insight into Ada in this chapter ..."
That's a good thought :)
That's a good thought :)

Thanks, Jean; I'm most definitely enjoying the novel! Yes, the antebellum Southern planter class consciously imitated the English aristocracy as much as they could.

Very definitely yes. It still applies..."
Thanks so much, Jean! I l had forgotten the Dombey illustration and it made me laugh aloud.


Petra's and Bridget's posts also made me wonder if Mr. Jarndyce is being too good for a reason. Like others have pointed out, it seems he knows something about Esther's past and by taking care of her, he is maybe trying to equalize whatever is being covered up. But where does his money come from? Could is be that he is related to Mrs. Roucewell? I am not sure there's any evidence supporting that, but maybe it cannot be fully discarded yet. Also, he allows Mr. Skimpole to continuously mooch of off him. Could this be because he actually owes him for something? Something that happened in the past or his silence when it comes to truths? I do feel like we are meant to trust him as well though, but it really makes one wonder....


Jean - thank you for your suggestion that I lead a read. It’s an exciting prospect but I think I’m still too new to buddy reads to do it well enough. I’d love to do it in the future though, or maybe share one first.
message 682:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 08, 2022 01:48AM)
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Werner - I was trying to avoid the word "imitated" :D So thanks for the confirmation :)
Sara - I still can't get over the fact that moving film exists of the Victorians! I love that clip too! People are just people, and it could be now with different clothes :)
Sara - I still can't get over the fact that moving film exists of the Victorians! I love that clip too! People are just people, and it could be now with different clothes :)
Lorena - Excellent thoughts, especially about the lovely contrast of the opening passages. And Mrs. Pardiggle - ghastly though she is - is indeed a comic delight; especially with her skirts knocking everything over, unbeknownst to her. You and Greg have both picked up the deeper meaning. It's a metaphor for destroying everything in her path, rather than improving the lives of poor people.
Fiona - Great idea! We can definitely talk about sharing hosting reads, in the planning thread in a little while. Thank you!
Fiona - Great idea! We can definitely talk about sharing hosting reads, in the planning thread in a little while. Thank you!
message 684:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 08, 2022 02:27AM)
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Chapter 9: Signs and Tokens
Esther begins by telling us how amazed she is to still be writing about herself. Esther says she and Ada have been together most of the time, and Richard was often there with them. As winter comes and goes, Esther watches Ada and Richard grow more and more romantically attached to each other, although she is sure that neither believes that anyone notices. So Esther never mentions it to them, and pretends that she doesn’t notice either. They call her “Dame Durden” and “dear little old woman”, but we are privy to Esther’s thoughts.
Esther tells us that Richard Carstone is one of the most “restless creatures in the world”. Perhaps Richard is going to be a sailor. To help Richard’s future prospects, Mr. Jarndyce applies to his distant relative Sir Leicester Dedlock but to no avail. Both Sir Leicester and his Lady reply graciously, and Lady Dedlock remembers that Richard is a distant relation by blood, but both say that at present there is nothing they can do for Mr. Jarndyce’s charge.
Nonetheless, Richard is undaunted. Esther notices that although Richard seems quite careless with money, he believes himself to be very prudent and cautious. She tells us that when Mr. Jarndyce repaid the money she and Richard had loaned Mr. Skimpole, Richard just spent the money again, saying that he considered it to be profit, since he had assumed that the money was gone forever. Out of the ten pounds he had loaned Mr. Skimpole, Richard wants to give five pounds of it to the bricklayer’s family. When Esther talks him out of it, he considers that if he spends four pounds of it on a post-chaise to London and back, he will be saving a pound. Yet:
“I believe Richard’s was as frank and generous a nature as there possibly can be. He was ardent and brave, and in the midst of all his wild restlessness, was so gentle that I knew him like a brother in a few weeks.”
Everything is going well at Bleak House, when one day at breakfast, Mr. Jarndyce shares the contents of a letter that he is reading. It is from an old school friend of his, a Lawrence Boythorn, who plans to pay Bleak House a visit. According to Mr. Jarndyce, Mr. Boythorn is a strapping man whose good nature is characterised by a booming laugh:
“He was then the heartiest and sturdiest boy in the world, and he is now the heartiest and sturdiest man. He is a tremendous fellow.”
True to his reputation, on the night he arrives at Bleak House, Mr. Boythorn’s laughter has the effect of making everyone around him share in the laughter and the joy. Even as he criticises a local who had given him wrong directions, which made him late arriving, Mr. Boythorn exhibits an infectious exuberance. Esther describes him as:
“a very handsome old gentleman—upright and stalwart, a true gentleman in his manner, so chivalrously polite, his face was lighted by a smile of so much sweetness and tenderness, and it seemed so plain that he had nothing to hide, but showed himself exactly as he was.”

Lawrence Boythorn - Sol Eytinge, Jr. 1867
Everyone likes him. Mr. Boythorn has brought his small pet bird with him, the “most astonishing bird in Europe”, he tells them. This bird is a small canary which is so tame and trusting of Mr. Boythorn, that it is often found out of its cage and perching on Mr. Boythorn’s head, and hops about on the table.
Mr. Boythorn knows about the Jarndyce case, and says:
“if I were in your place I would seize every master in Chancery by the throat to-morrow morning and shake him until his money rolled out of his pockets and his bones rattled in his skin.”
Mr. Jarndyce laughs, but says it is of no use, and reminds Mr. Boythorn about his own trouble in Chancery: a dispute with a neighbour about a right of way. Sir Leicester had brought a trespassing suit against him, so he in return he brought a trespassing suit against Sir Leicester. In Mr. Boythorn’s opinion:
“that fellow is, and his father was, and his grandfather was, the most stiff-necked, arrogant imbecile, pig-headed numskull, ever, by some inexplicable mistake of Nature, born in any station of life but a walking-stick’s! The whole of that family are the most solemnly conceited and consummate blockheads!”

The Crusty Boythorn holds forth on Chancery - Fred Barnard 1873
He goes on to tell them of some of the actions he and Sir Leicester have taken against each other, usually involving fences, gates, villains and fire hoses. Mr. Boythorn does hold a high opinion of Lady Dedlock, however, calling her: “the most accomplished lady in the world”.
Mr. Boythorn is hoping for a letter from “Kenge and Carboy”, but Esther assures him that there has been none. Later, as Mr. Boythorn and Richard listen to Ada playing the piano, Esther, who is playing backgammon with Mr. Jarndyce, asks him if Mr. Boythorn had ever been married. He tells her that Mr. Boythorn had been all but married once, but that the lady was now dead to him, and that:
“He has never since been what he might have been.”
The next day, while Mr. Jarndyce, Ada, and Richard are away on an excursion and Esther is busy attending to the household bookkeeping, a letter arrives from Kenge and Carboy, informing Mr. Boythorn that a clerk will call to meet with him at noon, regarding his dispute with Sir Leicester. Esther says:
“I had had some idea that the clerk who was to be sent down might be the young gentleman who had met me at the coach-office, and I was glad to see him, because he was associated with my present happiness.”
The hour arrived, and the clerk indeed turns out to be Mr. Guppy, who is dressed far more extravagantly than when Esther last saw him:

Mr. Guppy - Kyd (Joseph Clayton Clarke)
“He had an entirely new suit of glossy clothes on, a shining hat, lilac-kid gloves, a neckerchief of a variety of colours, a large hot-house flower in his button-hole, and a thick gold ring on his little finger. Besides which, he quite scented the dining-room with *bear’s-grease and other perfumery.”
All the time he is waiting to be shown in to Mr. Boyhorn, Mr. Guppy is staring fixedly at Esther:
“I thought him only awkward and shy, for he was evidently much embarrassed.”
Eventually Mr. Guppy is called to Mr. Boythorn upstairs, but Esther can hear that this results in a lot of yelling on Mr. Boythorn’s part. Mr. Guppy returns downstairs, looking worse for the conference. Esther invites him to stay for a meal. Seeing that Mr. Guppy has settled down and that is now well provided for both in food and drink, Esther gets up to leave, only to be detained by Mr. Guppy.
““What follows is without prejudice, miss?” said Mr. Guppy, anxiously bringing a chair towards my table.””
Esther is confused, so Mr. Guppy goes on:

Extraordinary Proceedings in regard to Guppy - Phiz (Hablot K. Browne) 1853
Explaining that he has received a raise since they last met, and that his mother would gladly accept Esther as a daughter-in-law, Mr. Guppy gets on his knees and asks Esther to marry him. Indignant, Esther rejects Mr. Guppy’s proposal and demands that Mr. Guppy get up from his knees at once:

Mr. Guppy Proposes - Harry Furniss 1910
Mr. Guppy presses his case, but eventually stops. He begs Esther not to hold this against him in the future, lest his career be jeopardised. Esther promises that she will never bring it up unless Mr. Guppy gives her cause to. Mr. Guppy takes his leave but not before assuring Esther that he will always have a soft spot for Esther in his heart, and she may always get in touch with him, and rely on him.
“Mr. Guppy, laying his written card upon the table and making a dejected bow, departed. Raising my eyes as he went out, I once more saw him looking at me after he had passed the door.”
Alone again, Esther continues with her bookkeeping duties for an hour or more, quite composed and cheerful. But when she goes up to her own room, she suddenly breaks down, laughing and then crying:
“as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden”.
Esther begins by telling us how amazed she is to still be writing about herself. Esther says she and Ada have been together most of the time, and Richard was often there with them. As winter comes and goes, Esther watches Ada and Richard grow more and more romantically attached to each other, although she is sure that neither believes that anyone notices. So Esther never mentions it to them, and pretends that she doesn’t notice either. They call her “Dame Durden” and “dear little old woman”, but we are privy to Esther’s thoughts.
Esther tells us that Richard Carstone is one of the most “restless creatures in the world”. Perhaps Richard is going to be a sailor. To help Richard’s future prospects, Mr. Jarndyce applies to his distant relative Sir Leicester Dedlock but to no avail. Both Sir Leicester and his Lady reply graciously, and Lady Dedlock remembers that Richard is a distant relation by blood, but both say that at present there is nothing they can do for Mr. Jarndyce’s charge.
Nonetheless, Richard is undaunted. Esther notices that although Richard seems quite careless with money, he believes himself to be very prudent and cautious. She tells us that when Mr. Jarndyce repaid the money she and Richard had loaned Mr. Skimpole, Richard just spent the money again, saying that he considered it to be profit, since he had assumed that the money was gone forever. Out of the ten pounds he had loaned Mr. Skimpole, Richard wants to give five pounds of it to the bricklayer’s family. When Esther talks him out of it, he considers that if he spends four pounds of it on a post-chaise to London and back, he will be saving a pound. Yet:
“I believe Richard’s was as frank and generous a nature as there possibly can be. He was ardent and brave, and in the midst of all his wild restlessness, was so gentle that I knew him like a brother in a few weeks.”
Everything is going well at Bleak House, when one day at breakfast, Mr. Jarndyce shares the contents of a letter that he is reading. It is from an old school friend of his, a Lawrence Boythorn, who plans to pay Bleak House a visit. According to Mr. Jarndyce, Mr. Boythorn is a strapping man whose good nature is characterised by a booming laugh:
“He was then the heartiest and sturdiest boy in the world, and he is now the heartiest and sturdiest man. He is a tremendous fellow.”
True to his reputation, on the night he arrives at Bleak House, Mr. Boythorn’s laughter has the effect of making everyone around him share in the laughter and the joy. Even as he criticises a local who had given him wrong directions, which made him late arriving, Mr. Boythorn exhibits an infectious exuberance. Esther describes him as:
“a very handsome old gentleman—upright and stalwart, a true gentleman in his manner, so chivalrously polite, his face was lighted by a smile of so much sweetness and tenderness, and it seemed so plain that he had nothing to hide, but showed himself exactly as he was.”

Lawrence Boythorn - Sol Eytinge, Jr. 1867
Everyone likes him. Mr. Boythorn has brought his small pet bird with him, the “most astonishing bird in Europe”, he tells them. This bird is a small canary which is so tame and trusting of Mr. Boythorn, that it is often found out of its cage and perching on Mr. Boythorn’s head, and hops about on the table.
Mr. Boythorn knows about the Jarndyce case, and says:
“if I were in your place I would seize every master in Chancery by the throat to-morrow morning and shake him until his money rolled out of his pockets and his bones rattled in his skin.”
Mr. Jarndyce laughs, but says it is of no use, and reminds Mr. Boythorn about his own trouble in Chancery: a dispute with a neighbour about a right of way. Sir Leicester had brought a trespassing suit against him, so he in return he brought a trespassing suit against Sir Leicester. In Mr. Boythorn’s opinion:
“that fellow is, and his father was, and his grandfather was, the most stiff-necked, arrogant imbecile, pig-headed numskull, ever, by some inexplicable mistake of Nature, born in any station of life but a walking-stick’s! The whole of that family are the most solemnly conceited and consummate blockheads!”

The Crusty Boythorn holds forth on Chancery - Fred Barnard 1873
He goes on to tell them of some of the actions he and Sir Leicester have taken against each other, usually involving fences, gates, villains and fire hoses. Mr. Boythorn does hold a high opinion of Lady Dedlock, however, calling her: “the most accomplished lady in the world”.
Mr. Boythorn is hoping for a letter from “Kenge and Carboy”, but Esther assures him that there has been none. Later, as Mr. Boythorn and Richard listen to Ada playing the piano, Esther, who is playing backgammon with Mr. Jarndyce, asks him if Mr. Boythorn had ever been married. He tells her that Mr. Boythorn had been all but married once, but that the lady was now dead to him, and that:
“He has never since been what he might have been.”
The next day, while Mr. Jarndyce, Ada, and Richard are away on an excursion and Esther is busy attending to the household bookkeeping, a letter arrives from Kenge and Carboy, informing Mr. Boythorn that a clerk will call to meet with him at noon, regarding his dispute with Sir Leicester. Esther says:
“I had had some idea that the clerk who was to be sent down might be the young gentleman who had met me at the coach-office, and I was glad to see him, because he was associated with my present happiness.”
The hour arrived, and the clerk indeed turns out to be Mr. Guppy, who is dressed far more extravagantly than when Esther last saw him:

Mr. Guppy - Kyd (Joseph Clayton Clarke)
“He had an entirely new suit of glossy clothes on, a shining hat, lilac-kid gloves, a neckerchief of a variety of colours, a large hot-house flower in his button-hole, and a thick gold ring on his little finger. Besides which, he quite scented the dining-room with *bear’s-grease and other perfumery.”
All the time he is waiting to be shown in to Mr. Boyhorn, Mr. Guppy is staring fixedly at Esther:
“I thought him only awkward and shy, for he was evidently much embarrassed.”
Eventually Mr. Guppy is called to Mr. Boythorn upstairs, but Esther can hear that this results in a lot of yelling on Mr. Boythorn’s part. Mr. Guppy returns downstairs, looking worse for the conference. Esther invites him to stay for a meal. Seeing that Mr. Guppy has settled down and that is now well provided for both in food and drink, Esther gets up to leave, only to be detained by Mr. Guppy.
““What follows is without prejudice, miss?” said Mr. Guppy, anxiously bringing a chair towards my table.””
Esther is confused, so Mr. Guppy goes on:

Extraordinary Proceedings in regard to Guppy - Phiz (Hablot K. Browne) 1853
Explaining that he has received a raise since they last met, and that his mother would gladly accept Esther as a daughter-in-law, Mr. Guppy gets on his knees and asks Esther to marry him. Indignant, Esther rejects Mr. Guppy’s proposal and demands that Mr. Guppy get up from his knees at once:

Mr. Guppy Proposes - Harry Furniss 1910
Mr. Guppy presses his case, but eventually stops. He begs Esther not to hold this against him in the future, lest his career be jeopardised. Esther promises that she will never bring it up unless Mr. Guppy gives her cause to. Mr. Guppy takes his leave but not before assuring Esther that he will always have a soft spot for Esther in his heart, and she may always get in touch with him, and rely on him.
“Mr. Guppy, laying his written card upon the table and making a dejected bow, departed. Raising my eyes as he went out, I once more saw him looking at me after he had passed the door.”
Alone again, Esther continues with her bookkeeping duties for an hour or more, quite composed and cheerful. But when she goes up to her own room, she suddenly breaks down, laughing and then crying:
“as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden”.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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And a little more …
Mr Lawrence Boythorn:
Lawrence Boythorn was based on a friend of Charles Dickens Walter Savage Landor . He was an English writer and poet who was critically acclaimed, but not very popular. His headstrong nature, hot-headed temperament, and complete contempt for authority, landed him in a great deal of trouble over the years, just like Mr. Boythorn. Here’s a little more for those who are interested:
Walter Savage Landor:

Portrait of Walter Savage Landor - (original of Lawrence Boythorn)
Walter Savage Landor’s best known pieces were “ Imaginary Conversations”, and the poem “Rose Aylmer”. By a succession of bizarre actions, he was successively thrown out of his school at Rugby, and Oxford University—and even the family home.
When he was older he was repeatedly involved in legal disputes with his neighbours. He also deliberately came into conflict with his political enemies – the supporters of Pitt – but also inadvertently with a succession of Lord Lieutenants, Bishops, Lord Chancellors, and so on. He usually gained the upper hand, if not with an immediate hilarious response, then possibly many years later with a biting epithet. His writing was often found to be libellous, and his friends often had to come to his aid.
Walter Savage Landor had a stormy marriage, which resulted in a long separation, and then when his wife had finally taken him back, to a series of sad attempts to escape. Yet Landor was described as “the kindest and gentlest of men”. He had many friends who went to great lengths to help him. He was fascinating company and often dined out on his wit and knowledge. Walter Savage Landorhad a powerful sense of humour, and a tremendous and famous laugh.
Charles Dickens has painted a fine picture of his friend Landor, in Lawrence Boythorn! And yet he named his second son after him.

Walter Savage Landor Dickens
Mr Lawrence Boythorn:
Lawrence Boythorn was based on a friend of Charles Dickens Walter Savage Landor . He was an English writer and poet who was critically acclaimed, but not very popular. His headstrong nature, hot-headed temperament, and complete contempt for authority, landed him in a great deal of trouble over the years, just like Mr. Boythorn. Here’s a little more for those who are interested:
Walter Savage Landor:

Portrait of Walter Savage Landor - (original of Lawrence Boythorn)
Walter Savage Landor’s best known pieces were “ Imaginary Conversations”, and the poem “Rose Aylmer”. By a succession of bizarre actions, he was successively thrown out of his school at Rugby, and Oxford University—and even the family home.
When he was older he was repeatedly involved in legal disputes with his neighbours. He also deliberately came into conflict with his political enemies – the supporters of Pitt – but also inadvertently with a succession of Lord Lieutenants, Bishops, Lord Chancellors, and so on. He usually gained the upper hand, if not with an immediate hilarious response, then possibly many years later with a biting epithet. His writing was often found to be libellous, and his friends often had to come to his aid.
Walter Savage Landor had a stormy marriage, which resulted in a long separation, and then when his wife had finally taken him back, to a series of sad attempts to escape. Yet Landor was described as “the kindest and gentlest of men”. He had many friends who went to great lengths to help him. He was fascinating company and often dined out on his wit and knowledge. Walter Savage Landorhad a powerful sense of humour, and a tremendous and famous laugh.
Charles Dickens has painted a fine picture of his friend Landor, in Lawrence Boythorn! And yet he named his second son after him.

Walter Savage Landor Dickens
message 686:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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And yet again there’s a bird reference, with Mr. Boythorn’s canary. Birds are one of Charles Dickens’s strongest motifs; they seem to crop up in his writing all the time. Crows flying overhead are always ominous, and there are endless references to birds in cages present in most novels, and especially in this one. Already we have had Esther’s bird in a cage, and the mad old woman lodger obsessed with the Jarndyce case, keeping birds trapped in cages at her lodgings at Krooks’ shop.
You might remember some from our previous group reads: Biler and his birds in Dombey and Son, Mrs. Merdle and her parrot in Little Dorrit … and a host of others. We have a whole flock of references coming in Bleak House.
You might remember some from our previous group reads: Biler and his birds in Dombey and Son, Mrs. Merdle and her parrot in Little Dorrit … and a host of others. We have a whole flock of references coming in Bleak House.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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*Bear’s Grease:
Bear’s grease was a popular treatment for men with hair loss from at least as early as 1653 until about the First World War. The myth of its effectiveness is based on a belief that as bears are very hairy, their fat would assist hair growth in others. Nicholas Culpepper, the English botanist and herbalist wrote in 1653, in his “The Physician’s Library:
“Bears Grease staies [stops] the falling off of the hair.”
Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), the Benedictine mystic, composer and woman of letters, also recommended the use of the substance in her “Physica”. A number of cosmetics companies sold bear’s grease and it was a trademark of Atkinsons of London who sold “Bears Grease Pomade”.
We discussed this earlier, during our read of David Copperfield: the comments start at number 68, but there's a bit about the story too. Here LINK, is this advert:

This part is revolting, so I’ll put it under a spoiler!
(view spoiler)
One of Charles Dickens’s illustrators, George Cruikshank drew a cartoon in 1823: “Heels well rub’d with bears grease”, referring to Russian support. The general public believed that grease from Russian bears was the best available. It shows the French King Louis XVIII unable to put on Napoleon II’s boots, and Napoleon’s son stands ready to catch the Bourbon crown should it fall.
Here it is:

The style of this reminds me very much of the cartoons by William Hogarth to illustrate one of Charles Dickens's favourite novels: The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling by Henry Fielding (which we've also had as a group read :))["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>
Bear’s grease was a popular treatment for men with hair loss from at least as early as 1653 until about the First World War. The myth of its effectiveness is based on a belief that as bears are very hairy, their fat would assist hair growth in others. Nicholas Culpepper, the English botanist and herbalist wrote in 1653, in his “The Physician’s Library:
“Bears Grease staies [stops] the falling off of the hair.”
Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), the Benedictine mystic, composer and woman of letters, also recommended the use of the substance in her “Physica”. A number of cosmetics companies sold bear’s grease and it was a trademark of Atkinsons of London who sold “Bears Grease Pomade”.
We discussed this earlier, during our read of David Copperfield: the comments start at number 68, but there's a bit about the story too. Here LINK, is this advert:

This part is revolting, so I’ll put it under a spoiler!
(view spoiler)
One of Charles Dickens’s illustrators, George Cruikshank drew a cartoon in 1823: “Heels well rub’d with bears grease”, referring to Russian support. The general public believed that grease from Russian bears was the best available. It shows the French King Louis XVIII unable to put on Napoleon II’s boots, and Napoleon’s son stands ready to catch the Bourbon crown should it fall.
Here it is:

The style of this reminds me very much of the cartoons by William Hogarth to illustrate one of Charles Dickens's favourite novels: The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling by Henry Fielding (which we've also had as a group read :))["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>
message 688:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Well, we saw the romance blossoming between the two wards of Jarndyce, but I have to admit that the marriage proposal to Esther came as a surprise! I do love Mr. Guppy! He has only seen her three times, but he seems head over heels in love with her. And of course Esther has had so little emotion in her life, it is all too much for her.
What do you think about Esther calling herself a “tiresome little creature”? Cynical 21st century readers may wonder whether Esther can possibly be so genuinely modest and self-effacing, but we do have to remember her upbringing, which had been deprived of any love or kindness. She very probably appealed more to the readers of the day, whereas we have to see things through Victorian eyes to some extent, to appreciate her simple nature.
On the other hand, as we saw, the Victorian writer Charlotte Brontë did not like Esther Summerson at all, and much preferred her own invented character of Jane Eyre—the orphan with a similar upbringing.
I personally think Charles Dickens created an ambiguous character in Esther; outwardly modest, but quick, and with a keen eye for irony, which she records. A truly simple young woman would not have seen Mrs. Pardiggle with such a clear eye in chapter 8, nor record this sardonic exchange between her and the astute bricklayer:
“There an’t,” growled the man on the floor, whose head rested on his hand as he stared at us, “any more on you to come in, is there?”
“No, my friend,” said Mrs. Pardiggle, seating herself on one stool and knocking down another. “We are all here.”
“Because I thought there warn’t enough of you, perhaps?” said the man, with his pipe between his lips as he looked round upon us.”
It’s so authentic, and funny too. We can see the entire situation in those lines, and know that Esther and Ada did too.
What do you think about Esther calling herself a “tiresome little creature”? Cynical 21st century readers may wonder whether Esther can possibly be so genuinely modest and self-effacing, but we do have to remember her upbringing, which had been deprived of any love or kindness. She very probably appealed more to the readers of the day, whereas we have to see things through Victorian eyes to some extent, to appreciate her simple nature.
On the other hand, as we saw, the Victorian writer Charlotte Brontë did not like Esther Summerson at all, and much preferred her own invented character of Jane Eyre—the orphan with a similar upbringing.
I personally think Charles Dickens created an ambiguous character in Esther; outwardly modest, but quick, and with a keen eye for irony, which she records. A truly simple young woman would not have seen Mrs. Pardiggle with such a clear eye in chapter 8, nor record this sardonic exchange between her and the astute bricklayer:
“There an’t,” growled the man on the floor, whose head rested on his hand as he stared at us, “any more on you to come in, is there?”
“No, my friend,” said Mrs. Pardiggle, seating herself on one stool and knocking down another. “We are all here.”
“Because I thought there warn’t enough of you, perhaps?” said the man, with his pipe between his lips as he looked round upon us.”
It’s so authentic, and funny too. We can see the entire situation in those lines, and know that Esther and Ada did too.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Should we be worried that Richard Carstone does not have a head for money? Is he like Mr. Skimpole? (Or another Mr. Micawber, from David Copperfield, a version of Charles Dickens’s own father.) The Jarndyce case, Mr. Boythorn, Mrs. Jellyby, Mrs. Pardiggle and the bricklayer’s family … We do seem to have many stories of money worries.
On the other hand, it was welcome to have some light relief breaking through the fog and gloom, as we have not had much of Charles Dickens’s extravagant humour yet. We certainly got that with Lawrence Boythorn—and Mr. Guppy too! I really like him :)
This chapter 9 seems to be all about both love and money, and ends with the image of Esther burying her doll. More foreshadowing? But of what could it be?
On the other hand, it was welcome to have some light relief breaking through the fog and gloom, as we have not had much of Charles Dickens’s extravagant humour yet. We certainly got that with Lawrence Boythorn—and Mr. Guppy too! I really like him :)
This chapter 9 seems to be all about both love and money, and ends with the image of Esther burying her doll. More foreshadowing? But of what could it be?

I wonder if Guppy is really in love with Esther or if he’s pursuing her for another reason? We wondered at his astonishment when he saw the portrait of Lady Dedlock, and we now know she has a remote consanguinity with Richard, so if Esther is also related and Guppy saw the resemblance perhaps he is seeing £ signs rather than love hearts?! He says
Blest with your hand, what means might I not find of advancing your interests, and pushing your fortunes!
I’m thinking that as Esther’s husband, he would be able to obtain information that might lead to her being acknowledged as ?Lady Dedlock’s daughter or some other relation? Any benefits would then come to him as her husband. He also says that he made up a reason to visit Bleak House and that it really wasn’t necessary.
This out of today, quite an unnecessary out so far as the attendance, which was its pretended object….
Or am I just being cynical? Poor John Chivery (Little Dorrit) was just as lovelorn and he had no ulterior motive.

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I love the idea of Brian Blessed as Lawrence Boythorn!
Ether hasn't had any experience of money matters, so she's teaching herself that side of things. She will have taught all sorts of things to the younger pupils at Greenleaf School, so we must assume she picks things up quickly, and we know that she is industrious.
Ether hasn't had any experience of money matters, so she's teaching herself that side of things. She will have taught all sorts of things to the younger pupils at Greenleaf School, so we must assume she picks things up quickly, and we know that she is industrious.

So can we assume that Guppy’s visit to Chesney Wold was on behalf of Boythorn? What was he supposed to discover?
I'm assuming Boythorn couldn’t have been the other visitor with Guppy, because as a neighbour surely Mrs rouncewell would’ve recognised him.
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You're right - in that Mrs. Rouncewell would have recognised Lawrence Boythorn yes, Janelle. Otherwise all we know is that he went because he wanted to.

I'm sensitive to violence, so all this talk of knocking out teeth I could've done without. Boythorn strikes me as quite immature. I've seen in Victorian novels a trope that older men are single (never married) because their one true love got away... but is that truly realistic?
I'm a bit confused as to whether Richard is related to both Dedlocks individually, or only to her by marriage?
We haven't been told John, except that Lady Dedlock said vaguely that he was a distant relative.

1. Ada and Richard
2. Boythorn
3. Mr. Guppy
I was also trying to think of what Dickens meant by calling this chapter “Signs and Tokens.”
Scene 1: Ada and Richard
I’m definitely getting a more favorable view of Ada now. She was so kind to the grieving widow and seems like a genuinely sweet person.
I’m also really liking Richard. He’s so cheery.
There was one line that said he was “grinding away at those books and instruments” and I wondered what exactly he was working on? Just studying and learning to possibly be a sailor?
I wondered if one the “signs” Dickens was speaking about was Esther noticing the signs of Ada and Richard falling in love.
I didn’t think about the consequences of his being careless with money until everyone pointed it out, but that is definitely a concern. It also made me wonder about how Richard and Ada were raised.

Love, love, love this character! He made me so happy! I loved how boisterous and jolly he appeared and how much he loved his little bird. (Another sign or token??) He might be my favorite character so far. It was fun to know he was based on a real character.
"Ha, ha, ha!" and again "Ha, ha, ha!" until the flattest echo in the neighbourhood seemed to catch the contagion and to laugh as enjoyingly as he did or as we did when we heard him laugh.
Loved this description.
...and in the very fury of his superlatives, which seemed to go off like blank cannons and hurt nothing.
…and a chin that might have subsided into a double chin but for the vehement emphasis in which it was constantly required to assist…
He was so funny talking about Sir Leicester and confirmed the opinion I already had of Sir Leicester. I was giggling through most of the conversation with Boythorn.
I loved their back-and-forth about the pathway.
"No, no," he said, "no closing up of my paths by any Dedlock!
On another note about Sir “Lucifer” it seemed to be that he had no desire to help Richard.
...he would be happy to advance the prospects of the young gentleman if it should ever prove to be within his power, which was not at all probable…
I also wondered during the dinner scene with Boythorn what happened to Mr. Skimpole…hmmm…I imagined that he’d just scampered off and hid because he knew he couldn’t pull one over on Boythorn.
And was anyone else thinking that Boythorn might have been in love with Lady Dedlock??? When Mr. Jarndyce was speaking about the lady he used to love, I instantly thought of Lady Dedlock, probably because he was so complimentary to her.

I’ll admit, I was torn on this one. I didn’t really believe Mr. Guppy of nefarious deeds when he visited Chesney Wold, but when he showed up to make his declaration (without prejudice) to Esther, my mind started whirling. I felt like you, Fiona, I instantly wondered if Lady Dedlock had looked like Esther, so now he thinks she’ll have a big inheritance so he’s trying to connect with her. He seemed extremely false to me while he was talking to Esther. I loved how she treated him, calmly going about her business and telling him to go away. But then her reaction in her bedroom was so incredibly human, it really touched me.
I surprised myself by beginning to laugh about it and then surprised myself still more by beginning to cry about it. In short, I was in a flutter for a little while and felt as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden.
I wondered if Guppy’s declaration could refer to the chapter title, in that it’s a “token of his admiration.”
Janelle - I didn’t make that connection between Mr. Guppy and Boythorn and the visit to Chesney Wold. It will be interesting to see how sincere Mr. Guppy really is.

Jean - I loved the illustrations today! I really liked Etyinge's drawing of Boythorn, and Furniss's drawing of Guppy proposing made me giggle.
Books mentioned in this topic
The Duchess of Malfi (other topics)Bleak House (other topics)
Plotting Women: Gender and Narration in the Eighteenth- and Nineteenth-Century British Novel (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
The Pickwick Papers (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
P.D. James (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Webster (other topics)
P.L. Travers (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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