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Bleak House
Bleak House - Group Read 4
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Bleak House: Chapters 1 - 10
I am definitely with the majority on my ill-feelings toward Skimpole. I still am not sure what purpose a man like this would have in the world because I believe in personal responsibility and he doesn't seem to even know that such a term exists. He is conceited and doesn't think of anyone but himself. These kind of people just make me angry because they are not living for the betterment of anyone except for themselves. He is the "what's in it for me?" type of person and ungrateful as he didn't even thank Esther and Richard. He's got a long hill to climb in order to show any redeeming qualities for me.Mr. Jarndyce - as has been mentioned - seems way too accepting of Skimpole's behavior. I would have liked to see him reprimand him if that was an acceptable thing to do at this time. At least pay back the money to Richard and Esther because they had no idea that they were in essence being conned out of their money.
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Great imagery Sam! Yes, Charles Dickens is definitely enticing us and hooking us in - and leaving the hook there while he goes off on another tangent! We have so any more fish to discover, and lines to unravel ... we'll have to make sure we place a weight on each hook, so we don't forget it in future chapters ;)
Chapter 6By the end of this chapter, I’m becoming apprehensive concerning Esther’s future. Her empathetic nature, her natural goodness and her sense of duty are likely to be her undoing. She may well, time and again fall victim to the charming nebbishes of this world such as Skimpole — or to the more sinister schemers, especially lawyers.
Furthermore, seeing Jarndyce in his natural environment, it’s quite apparent that he’s the sort of fellow who would be quite helpless when falling into the clutches of the Chancery cartel. The means whereby that horde of solicitors has managed to keep the ghastly lawsuit going for several generations, and thereby bleed their clients dry, may be attributable to a weakness in character of the entire Jarndyce clan, making them easy pickings. Dickens seems to be preparing the groundwork for a pretty tragedy …..
Bionic Jean wrote: "And a little more …About an
East Wind:
:
Traditionally an East Wind is associated with trouble. An East Wind tended to bring inclement weather and was considered to be bad for your health. Ac..."
On a personal note, I find it quite intriguing to recall that I had, without consciously bringing to mind any of your references, given the title "Eastwind" to my own novel, published several years ago. In doing so, I associated an east wind with unsettled weather, bodily aches — and domestic difficulties.
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Bionic Jean wrote: "But it’s hard to credit really how naive Mr. Jarndyce seems to be . . . does not see Harold Skimpole for what he is—an out and out scrounger—which the reader sees from the start. Is his judgment really lacking? Or perhaps he fully understands Skimpole, but finds him an innocent and amusing companion..."First of all I want to add my thanks to Jean for a truly wonderful series of posts to lead off today. The literary references to the East Wind "blew" me away (pun intended;-). And thank you also to Sara for adding the Biblical references which had not occurred to me.
I did think of the Bible as we approached Bleak House "There was a light sparkling on the top of a hill" which brought to mind for me "a shining city on a hill". Bleak House was not at all what I expected, in that it was a happy place.
Regarding Mr. Skimpole, I agree with the general consensus of dislike for him. I'm really curious (as Jean asked in her post) why in the world Mr. Jarndyce keeps him around. I wonder if it's tied in with Jarndyce's habit of invoking the East Wind whenever things get uncomfortable. He seems to be a very sensitive person. At least that's the impression I'm getting for now. He's always running away whenever he feels uncomfortable. Maybe he likes having Skimpole around because of his undemanding, childlike qualities, that don't make Jarndyce feel like he has to evoke the East Wind very often.
I did like this comment from Esther about Jarndyce, which I thought indicated how empathetic Jarndyce is "His look was thoughtful, but had a benignant expression in it which I often (how often!) saw again: which has long been engraven on my heart."
Lori wrote: "Mr. Jarndyce - as has been mentioned - seems way too accepting of Skimpole's behavior. I would have liked to see him reprimand him if that was an acceptable thing to do at this time. At least pay back the money to Richard and Esther because they had no idea that they were in essence being conned out of their money"Lori, I agree with your sentiment about wishing Skimpole was reprimanded. I thought though that Jarndyce really wanted to reimburse Esther and Richard, but couldn't because Richard felt honor bound to keep secret the amount of money he and Esther handed over. But maybe I read that wrong.
Jim wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "And a little more …Traditionally an East Wind is associated with trouble. An East Wind tended to bring inclement weather and was considered to be bad ..."
Jim, Given your inclinations towards "Eastwind" as a title for your own novel, I thought you might find this interesting. The notes in my edition of Bleak House contain a list of working titles Charles Dickens considered before settling on "Bleak House". My favorite is "Bleak House and the East Wind / How they both got into the Chancery and never got out"
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LOL! And thank you :) It's truly lovely to have all this appreciation!
""There was a light sparkling on the top of a hill" which brought to mind for me "a shining city on a hill""
Oh yes - good identification! I'm sure there must be quite a few Biblical references which escape me. Charles Dickens seems to pepper his works with them, and once you have your eye in, you can catch more of them :)
"I thought though that Jarndyce really wanted to reimburse Esther and Richard"
It did feel like that. Perhaps he's still thinking it over. Let's wait and see!
Jim, "I’m becoming apprehensive concerning Esther’s future. Her empathetic nature, her natural goodness and her sense of duty are likely to be her undoing. "I have the same apprehension about our naive Esther. But, if she is undone at some point I think Dickens will give her a happy ending. Dickens loves pitting "good" people against "bad" and have the good people win out in the end.... or, at least a majority of the good people.
Also, I don't think we've seen the worst of Skinpole. Everything is going his way so far so he is behaving well...for him. But watch out for when/if he doesn't get what he wants. Anger and far worse manipulations will ensue... whatever it takes for him to get what he wants. If he remains a prominent character I imagine we will see this side of him. Just guessing, of course.
So many comments and acknowledgments I would like to make today, but I will have to wait until I am reunited with my computer. In the meantime, I have loved all the thoughts that were posted today. And thank you, Jean, for presenting more information to add to my list of things I want to delve further into. Thank you for your hours of research and distillation of information!I love Bleak House with all the nooks and crannies, twists and turns, and mismatched pictures and bric-a-brac. I could visualize Jardynce lovingly finding and adding each unique piece to his home. But to name such a wonderful home “Bleak House” made me wonder if this was a subtle hint that things are not as they seem to be.
I disliked Skimpole intently. He made my stomach hurt. I cannot believe that someone could be that clueless. To me, he knew he had charm, and it was easier to use it to eke out a living, than to grow up and earn his own living. At one point (when he is asking Richard and Esther to cover his debts), I wondered if he was blackmailing Jardynce for something in his past. But Jardynce just seems too nice for that.
Jardynce told Esther and the cousins that he sent them to the Jellybys because he wanted to hear their opinion of what was going on there. I think he may be doing the same thing with Skimpole… wanting to verify that Skimpole really is a “child”, and not a grifter. As others have said, I also want to see Skimpole exposed.
What a wonderful chapter this was for more character development. Richard is such a nice young man. I agree that Ada hasn’t really been fleshed out yet.
Jean, I’m curious if Leigh Hunt was one of those people who sued Dickens for character assassination. Hunt certainly comes out awful in Bleak House.
As others have said, thanks so much for the extra background information Jean! I wouldn't have understood the full significance of Esther's future position and what the keys really signified without it!I really liked the description of Bleak House, especially the "native Hindu chair" and all the odd objects to be found through it. As neat and pleasant as everything is there, it seems Mr Jarndyce's purpose wasn't to create an impression with the house or to be fashionable. Rather, it's an honest expression of his personality, with everything from the homely needlework to an Indian object "something between a bamboo skeleton and a great bird-cage." It seems a house that would be comfortable to live in. It's very different than the sort of house Lady Dedlock would put together, and I find what he has done with Bleak House charming!
As far as Skimpole, he's extremely selfish and self-absorbed (as children often are), and his bilking Esther of her hard earned savings makes me very angry. Also, not caring for his own children is reprehensible! But, I take him more as an Oscar Wilde sort of character who makes clever and charming pronouncements that people are entertained by precisely because they don't take him altogether seriously. And I don't blame Mr Jarndyce for having him there.
I doubt that Mr Jarndyce really believes he is harmless or blameless. But I imagine that most of the people Skimpole encounters are well enough aware of his behavior and foibles to defend themselves. If wealthy people provide him sums of money that they can spare, that doesn't really do any real harm. In this case with Esther and Richard, he's crossed a line by mooching off of people that don't have much to spare, but Mr Jarndyce tries to make sure it will never happen again. Mr Jarndyce seemed to find out about this problem quite quickly; I wouldn't be surprised if he was keeping a close eye on Skimpole's doings to make sure nothing untoward happens. If Skimpole had approached one of the ladies inappropriately, I feel sure Mr Jarndyce would have put a stop to that very fast!
And I'm guessing that, as rude as Skimpole's behavior is with the "follerer", debt collectors encountered much worse on a regular basis. When I witnessed a neighbor's car get repossessed as a child, there was practically an assault. I didn't like Skimpole, but I think in environments where he was well known, he could probably be entertaining at social events and also easily prevented from doing any real harm. I certainly wouldn't want to know him though!
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Thank you Shirley!
I think many have enjoyed the description of "Bleak House" itself (except Sam, if I remember rightly). I always enjoy them too, and find Charles Dickens imbues houses with a real sense of place - and frequently brings them (or parts of them) alive as a separate character.
No, Bleak House was not always named such. I think I drew attention to this, and it is referred to again shortly. There is more back story, which we do have the facts to guess, actually!
As for Leigh Hunt suing Charles Dickens, I seem to remember wondering that myself! But perhaps anyone who is able to behave in such an appalling fashion, does not see anything wrong with it, so he thought it was a flattering portrait! Who knows? At any rate, no he didn't seem to.
They were friends, but Charles Dickens's closest friend was of course his biographer and mentor John Forster, and he created a terribly unflattering portrait of him too, in Our Mutual Friend. Since John Forster always read Charles Dickens's works before they went to press, he would be bound to recognise it - yet incredibly they remained friends!
Thank you, Jean, for the wonderful summary, illustrations and the added background info. I particularly liked finding out that Skimpole's character was based on a real person. Imagine having such a fellow in your life!!This may be a North American thing, but was no one else reminded of the Elton John commercial for Skip The Dishes, where he says that he's "been skimped"? That commercial immediately came to mind when Skimp-ole was introduced.
Dickens may have meant "skimp" (meaning, I believe, to have nothing and/or to not work) when naming this character.
Skimpole is, I believe, a true con artist. He probably hangs around a benefactor's home until his welcome is over, then moves on.
It's despicable that he has left so many children, and women, in his wake.
I hope Skimpole isn't Esther's father! What a thought!
It was also mentioned above (sorry, I can't find the comment again), that Ada's personality wasn't coming through very much. I agree with this. So far, she's cheerful and bright, but we know nothing else about her. It may be because we're hearing the story from Esther's point of view and she herself has just met Ada.
Maybe Ada's voice will be heard in future chapters?
John Jarndyce seems really sweet and kind. I wonder if he's really that or whether he has a dark side. I hope he's for real.
I enjoyed this chapter but it raised a few questions about how we perceive people and whether they show their true natures to us.....and how we would know that they weren't. How do we trust those around us?
I am afraid to look back on my post, not knowing exactly what I said, but I loved the house description. I did not think it "bleak," except for being drafty and having odd passageways but I liked the description. My favorite part of the chapter was the paragraph with the pictorial wallpaper and pictures, with birds, the death of Captain Cook, and the tea ceremony featured, although I didn't see a meaningful link between them and was hinting for someone to follow up. : )
This discussion has been excellent and, Jean, thanks for your wonderful lead in to everything! I just had a thought as I read the last comment. Is Esther actually treating Ada as her Dolly, using her as a replacement?. She kisses her on the head every time she sees her and seems to treat her as a child, to try to protect her.
I disliked Skimpole to and agree with everything I have read above. I liked Sheila’s idea that Jarndyce might be monitoring Skimpole as he did the Jellyby family. Skimpole reminds me of the poor relation hanging on at court in a novel of an earlier era. He lives on his wits, looks, etc. until he outlives his welcome.
And I loved that Bleak House was different from what it’s name implied. And that Esther has a secure place there. I wonder what is coming next and hope that Skimpole does not have a major role.
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Yes, I remember that one - mention of birds in a work by Charles Dickens always makes my radar come up! Anyway it's always good to have an alterative point of view, whoever it was :)
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That's very perceptive Petra - perhaps Charles Dickens is paving the way for us to examine more characters with this thought in mind.
Interesting analysis of "Skimp-ole" too.
And thank you!
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I just had a thought as I read the last comment. Is Esther actually treating Ada as her Dolly, using..."
That's a brainwave: I love that idea, Sue!
And thank you :)
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Skimpole's name actually brought to mind for me skim milk... I don't know why, but it did make me laugh!
Fiona - I've kind of been feeling the same towards Ada. I'm really not a fan of "insipid" characters. Sara - Thanks for the biblical references! I'm loving learning about the East Wind and all the places it's mentioned.
Anne - I'm with you, I think Mr. Skimpole is going to cause some serious problems later on. He's perfectly wretched.
Greg - After all the talk of bird-cages in earlier chapters, that line you mentioned, "something between a bamboo skeleton and a great bird-cage.", caught my attention too. I wondered if Dickens was purposefully mentioning bird cages so often.
Sue - I loved the connection you made between Ada and the doll. I hadn't thought of it like that.
Although I think I won't be able to add much to the chat during the work week, I want to say that I am loving reading along. I've also so appreciated seeing the illustrations that have been uploaded.In her commentary on Chapter 5, Jean mentioned the irony of Krook being unable to read despite being surrounded by remnants of language and of the production of it. The mention of Krook's illiteracy followed almost immediately by the return to Mrs Jellyby's profuse yet somehow unproductive words. This made me see a kind of connection between them that I'd never noticed before.
I also noticed the advertisement for law copiest (law writer? law clerk? I am sure there is a formal name for the role) that is hanging up in Krook's shop and altogether it makes me want to watch for how the command of language and probably the misuse of language will maybe play a role in the novel.
That’s an interesting thought, Elizabeth.
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Natalie - Well as I said, we don't have a full picture of Ada yet, as we're only in the second installment and there are 20, with lots more characters to come. Remember too, we have only seen Ada through Esther's eyes, and Esther admires her enormously. Some characters we will only have this partisan view of; others we see through the omniscient narrator's eyes. Plus she is the youngest at Bleak House.
We have been give clear indications about those we took a dislike to, such as Mr. Skimpole, and Mr. Krook, but know nothing yet about Ada, except that she is an orphan and pretty. (Nobody can help being pretty ...) It's easy to generalise about Victorian fiction, and cast characters into roles defined by our 21st century perceptions, and we have to beware of that. In this case perhaps it's a bit early to judge Ada! There will be more about her later.
"I wondered if Dickens was purposefully mentioning bird cages so often
Definitely! Good thought. Birds represent freedom, to Charles Dickens, and cages are showing all the characters who are trapped in some way, either by their circumstances or by a decision they have made.
Whenever you see a mention of birds in Charles Dickens it's a coded message. Think how powerful the scene was of the little old lady and her songbirds in cages, who would never be set free, but die in their cages ("on the Day of Judgement" - a nice double meaning). She is obsessed with the Jarndyce and Jarndyce case; that is her "cage".
These motifs are there throughout all his fiction :)
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I'm delighted you're here Elisabeth, as I know you love this book. Thank you, and please just join in where you can. You've made some valuable observations and connections here.
"it makes me want to watch for how the command of language and probably the misuse of language will maybe play a role in the novel"
We are drowning in paper, letters and reading in this one! How the different characters are affect by them is, as you suspect, a core theme.
"law copiest (law writer? law clerk? I am sure there is a formal name for the role"
Yes, it's an obsolete profession now, but a law-writer was one who copied documents to be used in the law courts. There is one lodging with Mr. Krook (who is ironically illiterate, as you mentioned) but we have not met him yet. The wards of Jarndyce passed the way to his room, on their way to see the little old lady's room.
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The main contention was that Leigh Hunt was a little hurt by this portrayal but he was 70, poor and ill, so did nothing about it. This wiki page about him has no spoilers :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Hunt
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We know from the title that we will be back in Lincolnshire, at Chesney Wold. The narrator tells us:
“The rain is ever falling—drip, drip, drip—by day and night upon the broad flagged terrace-pavement, the Ghost’s Walk”.
Sir Leicester Dedlock is not at Chesney Wold; both he and Lady Dedlock are in Paris:
“and solitude, with dusky wings, sits brooding upon Chesney Wold”.
Chesney Wold - Phiz (working drawing)
It so rainy, wet, and miserable that even all the animals of Chesney Wold—both the horses and the dog—grumble about the weather and yearn for the sunny, pleasant days. The narrator muses on what the horses in their stables may be talking about; doubtless they are hoping to be taken out,
“or may even beguile the time by improving (perhaps corrupting) the pony in the loose-box in the corner”.
The housekeeper, Mrs. Rouncewell, has been there more than fifty years. She is a fine, upright old lady, handsome, stately, neat and well-corseted. Mrs. Rouncewell does not mind the weather, saying that her concern is the house. Chesney Wold is shut up for now, as the master and mistress are not at home, but she still takes care of it. Sir Leicester Dedlock considers her a most dependable person.
Mrs. Rouncewell’s husband died many years ago, and she has two sons. The youngest swas a “fine lad, gay, good-humoured, clever lad”, but he went wild, ran off and became a soldier, and never came home. Her older son could have become the steward at Chesney Wold, but from a very early age he was interested in mechanics. He had a passion for constructing contraptions, and making things work. So when he made a model of a power-loom, Sir Leicester suggested Mrs. Rouncewell had “better get rid of your boy” and he became an engineer in the “iron country farther north”, (Lancashire or Yorkshire) where the works and industries were. Although he is much better suited to this work, Mrs. Rouncewell is appalled by the fact that he does not want to work for such a great aristocratic family. She admits that:
“there may be a world beyond Chesney Wold that I don’t understand”, but does not really seem convinced, and never truly understands his choice. However, her son has married and given her a grandson, Watt, who is at home from abroad at present, and visiting her at Chesney Wold.
Mrs. Rouncewell is pleased to see her grandson, and comments with a pang, how like his uncle George he is. (This was Mrs. Rouncewell’s favourite son, who ran off to be a soldier.) When Watt argues that he actually resembles his father, Mrs. Rouncewell agrees that he is also like his father of course, and is glad to learn that Watt’s father is doing well.
Watt asks Mrs. Rouncewell to tell him more about a very pretty young girl that he has seen at the house, and Mrs. Rouncewell tells him it is Rosa, the daughter of a widow in the village. She is training Rosa to be a maid. She tells Watt that Rosa is very shy and modest: a fine quality in a woman, which is becoming scarce. Rosa happens to knock, and enters the room. She tells Mrs. Rouncewell that two men have called. They say they are in town on business and have heard about Chesney Wold. They told her that they would like to be shown around the house, and one of them gave her a card for Mrs. Rouncewell.
Watt reads the card, which says “Mr. Guppy”. Mrs. Rouncewell is not at all keen, but Rosa tells her that Mr. Guppy says that they are lawyers, and mentioned that name of Mr. Tulkinghorn, although he says he is not in Mr. Tulkinghorn’s office. That does the trick. Mr Tulkinghorn is well respected at Chesney Wold. He is almost ”part and parcel of the place, and besides, is supposed to have made Mrs. Rouncewell’s will“. Mr. Guppy and his associate are duly allowed in, and are to be are given a tour of the house. Watt, ”being smitten by a sudden wish to see the house himself“ joins the party, which pretty Rosa, the ”fresh village beauty” will host.
Thus they are led through the labyrinthine rooms of Chesney Wold. The tour has only started but the lawyers are tired and exhausted when Mr. Guppy becomes fascinated by a portrait of Lady Dedlock. He is sure that he knows the face, and is told that it is a perfect likeness. When Rosa draws Mr. Guppy’s attention to the portraits of Sir Leicester and his father, which flank her portrait, Mr. Guppy makes a perfunctory show of interest, before returning his gaze to Lady Dedlock.
They continue on the tour and finally are shown Lady Dedlock’s room. Mr. Guppy looks out of the same windows she looked out, not long ago, at the same weather which had “bored her to death”.
Lady Dedlock - Mervyn Peake 1946
Rosa mentions that the terrace below is called the “Ghost’s Walk”. When Mr. Guppy urges to be told the family story behind the name, Rosa says that she doesn’t know it. Mrs. Rouncewell tells the lawyers that the story is a family affair, and it is called the Ghost’s Walk, after an old family anecdote.
After the men leave, Mrs. Rouncewell tells Rosa and Watt the story. It goes back to the days of King Charles the First, and perhaps even before that:
“Mrs. Rouncewell holds this opinion because she considers that a family of such antiquity and importance has a right to a ghost. She regards a ghost as one of the privileges of the upper classes, a genteel distinction to which the common people have no claim.”
At that time, Sir Morbury Dedlock was the owner of Chesney Wold. However, Sir Morbury Dedlock married a lady who had no blood ties to the Dedlock family, and who was rumoured to have sympathised with the rebel cause that opposed King Charles the First. She had a haughty temper, and they were not well suited to each other; neither in age nor character. They had no children. When the Lady’s favourite brother was killed in the civil war by one of Sir Morbury’s close kinsman, she began to hate the Dedlock family she had married into. More than once, at dead of night, she crept down to the stables, to lame the horses. However, in the end Sir Morbury discovered her, and there was a struggle, presumably through the horse being frightened and lashing out. The Lady was lamed in the hip, and began to waste away from that very hour.
The Lady never complained, but tried to try to practise her walking along the terrace, holding on to the stone balustrade, every day. One day she fell, collapsed to the ground, and although her husband tried to help her, she said:
“I will die here where I have walked. And I will walk here, though I am in my grave. I will walk here until the pride of this house is humbled. And when calamity or when disgrace is coming to it, let the Dedlocks listen for my step!”
and promptly died.
From then on, the echo of her tread along the terrace can be heard now and then after dark.Lady Morbury’s curse is a worrying sound, and it must be heard. When it is there, you cannot shut it out. Mrs. Rouncewell asks her grandson to wind up the tall French clock behind him, which is put there purposely, as it can play music. He does so, but they can still hear the echoing tread, when they put their ear to my Lady’s pillow.
Chesney Wold - Harry Furniss 1910
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Chesney Wold is based on Rockingham Castle in Northamptonshire. It’s a large rambling castle, dating from the 11th century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocking...
Many of the stately homes and country estates opened their doors to the public for a tour in the 18th and 19th centuries, just as they do today. Charles Dickens was a regular visitor there, and it impressed him with its majesty. It's huge!
Rockingham Castle, Northamptonshire now - aerial view
Rockingham Castle, Northamptonshire now
Interior, Rockingham Castle, Northamptonshire
I didn’t include the photos in my summary, as they are not dark and brooding …the owners want people to go and visit Rockingham Castle, not to be given the heebie-jeebies and scared off by a ghost! We have to use our imaginations :)
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Oddly there were no illustrations at all for chapter 7, by any of the early illustrators! So I included two Frontispieces of Chesney Wold instead: actually a working drawing by Hablot Knight Browne (Phiz) and one by Harry Furniss, plus a later illustration of Lady Dedlock by Mervyn Peake. His work is always very quirky and often gothic, so this seemed a good fit. I have a whole book of illustrations for Bleak House by him, Sketches From Bleak House ...
and yes, he is the Mervyn Peake who wrote the The Gormenghast Novels! He was also an extremely talented illustrator.
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I do love that Charles Dickens included a ghost story within this chapter, and we know that whenever there are ghosts in a story by him, they are always significant.
It is all so ominous; I feel as if there is a lot of foreshadowing in this chapter.
More names … “Guppy” is a sort of fish, but it is small fry. I suspect he is called this to point up the “big fish” lawyer of the story, Mr. Tulkinghorn!
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Please feel free to post tomorrow too, as well as using the time to catch up on posts you might have missed :) The original readers had a whole month to mull these 3 chapters over - but we just have a day.
There seems a big clue reveal in this chapter of which I will say no more as not to spoil and since I am often wrong I have question on Mrs. Rouncewell's son who had mechanical inclinations. He is compared to Wat Tyler, an early revolutionary or reformer. I did not see the connection between engineering talents and political leaning. Is it because the engineering is associated with industry and industry would challenge conservative and traditional practices?
Likewise, for those not familiar with British history the background of the ghost story might be confusing. Suffice to say that Morbury Dedlock and his wife support two different sides in civil wars that result in the execution of Charles I and and Britain becoming a republic under Cromwell the Protector until the restoration of the monarchy.
Thanks Bionic Jean for the illustration by Mervyn Peake. I like Peake's art and as a writer, he seems greatly influenced by Dickens. For those having read all of Dickens and wanting more, Peake is a good source.
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Yes. It's not specifically party politics, but the change brought about by the Industrial Revolution. As you'll know Sam, this is a common theme throughout all Charles Dickens's novels. Here Sir Leicester represents the old order, which is being swept away by the new mechanised age.
Charles Dickens himself was sensitive to both sides. He was excited by the progress railways represented, for instance, but feared that many traditional values would be swept away. It is worth bearing in mind that it is Sir Leicester Dedlock who thinks of Mrs. Rouncewell's son as being like Wat Tyler not the omniscient narrator! Sir Leicester fears any change of government, or a revolution which would unseat him. It rubs salt in the wound that Mrs. Rouncewell's son has named his own son (who has visited his grandmother) "Watt" - clearly after Wat Tyler.
Thanks for mentioning about the English Civil War ... I only put brief details in my summary, thinking that most members do know about the "Cavaliers and the Roundheads", as it's our common history (at least for Americans and Australians). We do have Scottish members though (and maybe Welsh and Irish) so I must point out that it's not "British, but the English Civil War. It is complicated, so here's a link to wiki about the English Civil War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...
and about:
Charles I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles...
And thanks for not mentioning a spoiler!
I'm reading the penguin classics and I must warn any first time readers who do to tread cautiously with the notes! In chapter three, there is a note for when J. Jarndyce says "let her fly away on a broom" and the note then says it is an allusion to Esther becoming his housekeeper, as well as to another SPOILER! I am glad the note did not confirm right then that it was Jarndyce speaking at least!
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Notes in these editions are packed with spoilers. I implore everyone, unless you know the story (or don't mind) don't use them for this slow read! You can always ask here.
I'm so sorry you had something spoiled, Jenny :( But there are lots of mysteries in this one :)
Thanke Jean :) It wasn't a huge spoiler at least, so there is that!
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I really enjoyed this chapter and the contrast with the house here, Chesney Wold and Bleak House. The addition of the animals and their inner thoughts was so whimsical and I loved it. This also reminded me that even though the Dedlocks are in Paris, the house must still be cared for. Mrs. Rouncewell is delightful but I’m saddened that she couldn’t accept her sons’ choices. The soldier not returning must have been gut wrenching to her. But Watt’s father has done very well but he didn’t do what she wanted and become the steward. I can relate to wanting the best for your children and thinking as a parent we know best. But this son wasn’t suited at all and is much happier in his world of industry.The ghost story was fantastic! I cannot wait to see what significance this will have. Mr. Guppy recognizing Lady Dedlock’s portrait is very curious. He is Mr. Kenge’s clerk, if I’m remembering correctly who helped get Esther, Ada and Richard to Bleak House. So that produces a thought about the connection of the Jarndyce case and Lady Dedlock. How he’d heard about the house to stop in for a look see! And who is the man with him that isn’t mentioned by name?
It’s interesting that Guppy should present himself as a lawyer rather than an employee. I had understood him to be around the level of clerk. Maybe he thought he wouldn’t be given a tour of the house otherwise?So who is Lady Dedlock? So intriguing! Esther’s mother perhaps? Almost certainly another ward in Jarndyce & Jarndyce?
Jean Because Mrs Rouncewell’s son enjoyed inventing machinery - constructing steam-engines out of saucepans - I thought he’d named his son after James Watt, the Scottish inventor whose steam engine underpinned the Industrial Revolution. That seems a more logical suggestion than naming him after Wat Tyler and changing the spelling, I think.
Maybe the writing Lady Dedlock recognized was Mr. Guppys! He knows her, it would appear, and he's a clerk so would make sense he would do some copying for the firm.
There were some eerily good bits in here and some lovely writing. I love the poetic opening that Jean shared! The language is so beautiful. This group is really helping me appreciate how truly lovely Dickens can be.
While Esther sleeps, and while Esther wakes, it is still wet weather down at the place in Lincolnshire. The rain is ever falling—drip, drip, drip—by day and night upon the broad flagged terrace-pavement, the Ghost's Walk.
…and solitude, with dusky wings, sits brooding upon Chesney Wold.
Dickens spent a long time discussing the animals of Chesney Wold. I’ll admit, this part seemed a little bit “list like” to me, though parts of it amused me, like the bit Jean shared about the pony. (I recently read The Old Curiosity Shop and one of my favorite characters in that book was the stubborn pony, so this reminded me of him.)
The whole seemingly monotonous and uncompanionable half-dozen, stabled together, may pass the long wet hours when the door is shut in livelier communication than is held in the servants' hall or at the Dedlock Arms, or may even beguile the time by improving (perhaps corrupting) the pony in the loose-box in the corner.
I wondered if this mention of “the wind” had anything to do with the discussion we had yesterday and the significance of the East Wind. I probably wouldn’t have noticed it, if wind hadn’t been so prevalent in Chapter 6. when the wind has been very obstinate have even made it known in the house itself—upstairs, downstairs, and in my Lady's chamber.
Loved the poetry in this paragraph!
Be this as it may, there is not much fancy otherwise stirring at Chesney Wold. If there be a little at any odd moment, it goes, like a little noise in that old echoing place, a long way and usually leads off to ghosts and mystery.
Sir Leicester seems like one of those people that has a mighty high opinion of himself, but is also pretty clueless about things. I’m wondering how he and Lady Dedlock came to be together. He definitely doesn’t seem to like anything breaking the “class order” of things so it’s even more surprising that he ended up with her, based on what we know of her background in chapter 2. The present representative of the Dedlocks is an excellent master. He supposes all his dependents to be utterly bereft of individual characters, intentions, or opinions, and is persuaded that he was born to supersede the necessity of their having any.
Further proof is that he doesn’t like that Mrs. Rouncewell’s son is learning “new” things and wants him gone. They referenced a Wat Tyler, who I had to Google. He apparently led a peasant revolt in 1381. I think that also shows how stuck in the past the Dedlocks are.
It appears to the afflicted Mr. Guppy and his inconsolable friend that there is no end to the Dedlocks, whose family greatness seems to consist in their never having done anything to distinguish themselves for seven hundred years.
Jean - I also wondered if the history of Wat Tyler provides some reasoning behind Mrs. Rouncewell’s grandson being named “Watt.” I’m glad you brought that point up too! Thanks for adding more information about Dickens and his worldviews in this area. I really appreciate all the background knowledge you have and share. It has been so rewarding reading this book with you!
Fiona - I don’t know anything about James Watt, so that’s interesting background! That would definitely make sense with the story.
Paul -I took it to mean that it’s not good for the “lower class” folk to learn new material and rise above “their place.” It could lead to unpleasant things for the “upper class,” like a revolt.
I couldn’t help but giggle when Mr. Guppy showed up, and Mrs. Rouncewell was so astounded by his name. I was outright laughing at the descriptions of how they felt touring the house. I actually really enjoy touring castles and estates, but that feeling he described completely captured how I felt after seeing my third or fourth cathedral in Europe. :D
As is usually the case with people who go over houses, Mr. Guppy and his friend are dead beat before they have well begun. They straggle about in wrong places, look at wrong things, don't care for the right things, gape when more rooms are opened, exhibit profound depression of spirits, and are clearly knocked up.
He is so low that he droops on the threshold and has hardly strength of mind to enter.
Like many of you, when Mr. Guppy was so struck by the picture of Lady Dedlock, I instantly thought of Esther, and wondered if Esther looked like Lady Dedlock because they were mother and daughter. Mr. Guppy had just recently seen Esther so this would make sense. I know some of us were already wondering this, before now. We’ll have to wait and see if that was really what Mr. Guppy was seeing…"Blest," says Mr. Guppy, staring in a kind of dismay at his friend, "if I can ever have seen her. Yet I know her!
Eventually Mr. Guppy and his inconsolable friend take off and we get to the creepiest part of the book, yet.
All things have an end, even houses that people take infinite pains to see and are tired of before they begin to see them.
I loved the eerie ghost story that Mrs. Rouncewell shared. This part, that Jean shared especially struck me. I wondered if this was some foreshadowing for what is to come for the Dedlocks.
'I will die here where I have walked. And I will walk here, though I am in my grave. I will walk here until the pride of this house is humbled. And when calamity or when disgrace is coming to it, let the Dedlocks listen for my step!'"
Watt also made a point of saying that she walks when “disgrace” is coming, which could mean, if Lady Dedlock is Esther’s mother, that the truth is about to come out.
On another note, I absolutely adored the little bit of attraction happening between Rosa and Watt. It was so cute. I loved all the little mentions of Rosa getting shyer and shyer. It just made me love her more. Rosa is so shy as she gives it to him that they drop it between them and almost knock their foreheads together as they pick it up. Rosa is shyer than before.
Finding, now she leaves off, that she has been making quite a long speech, Rosa is shyer than ever.
Watt looks at Rosa. Rosa in the deepening gloom looks down upon the ground, half frightened and half shy.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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As always, thank you so much Jean for all the detailed information you share!"
I'm always delighted when you're with us Sara, and despite what you say, you always do have some great extra insights! That's terrific information about the east wind in the Bible, and no it hadn't occurred to me. All the ones I shared were literary, (plus one from TV) but now I'm sure that Moses' parting of the Red Sea in the Old Testament must have been the source of them all! Thank you :)
And the thought of Skimpole, "skimming the cream" off every good thing - perfect!