Reading the Detectives discussion
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The Shortest Way to Hades
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The Shortest Way to Hades by Sarah Caudwell (Hilary Tamar #2) (Feb/March 22)
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The link to the spoiler thread is below:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
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I have just finished my re-read (for the umpteenth time). I read the books for the style, as much as for the mystery, although the mystery and the excitement does work.
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I've seen various comments that Hilary must be the laziest sleuth in literature - would anyone agree? It hadn't really struck me, but s/he does spend a lot of time sitting around gossiping and having a drink! Incidentally, I'm now thinking of the character as male, even though there is never any indication either way.
I will be joining you later but first need to get through Holy Disorders-a busy month!
Judy wrote: "I've seen various comments that Hilary must be the laziest sleuth in literature - would anyone agree? It hadn't really struck me, but s/he does spend a lot of time sitting around gossiping and having a drink! Incidentally, I'm now thinking of the character as male, even though there is never any indication either way."I've only read the first in the series so far (and loved it for the style and for Hilary's narrative voice, which I found very funny) but on that basis:
a) Yes, Hilary is lazy but surely Nero Wolfe takes the cake for Laziest Sleuth?
and
b) I picture Hilary as male; that degree of self-regard, Olympian self-certainty and disdain for the Lower Intellectual Orders (especially from Cambridge!), while by no means unknown in women, is far more common in men, I think. It just sounds like a male voice to me.
I'll definitely be joining in with this one.
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I read this fairly recently and enjoyed it hugely - for me, Hilary is decidedly male... for the same reasons Sid has given above :)
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Funnily enough when I read this the first time through I assumed Hilary was male-someone in this group pointed out that this is never specified and I was watching for it in the first book and agree that it is never made clear, but I still "read" the character as a vaguely androgynous male.
At the start of Hades one of the male members of the group greets Prof. Tamar as "My dear Hilary." For me, the tone is of two Oxford men meeting rather than a man and a woman. It's by no means conclusive and I may be suffering from confirmation bias, but I reckon it's indicative.Others may consider this to be Fake News, of course. :o)
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Susan wrote: "I am afraid Hilary will be female to me forever, as that's the way I read the character in the first book. I used to work with a Hilary and I suppose I just think of the name as a woman's, ..."Fair enough, Susan. Our pictures of characters are always our very own - and thank heavens for that!
Sid wrote: "At the start of Hades one of the male members of the group greets Prof. Tamar as "My dear Hilary." For me, the tone is of two Oxford men meeting rather than a man and a woman. It's by no means conc..."Cantrip and Ragwort are known (and addressed) by their surnames, and I have wondered whether Timothy is a given name or a surname ... On that basis, the use of 'Hilary' suggests female.
I am definitely of two minds on the subject. Although I would have described Hilary as male, my image of the Professor is based on my grammar school headmistress, all severe suiting or tweeds.
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New evidence has emerged which has caused me to amend to a degree my previous opinion that the phrase “My dear X” is indicative solely of a greeting between two men. Further study of the manuscript in question reveals that, while my previous interpretation remains sound in some cases, it may not be said to represent the entire picture, wherein undoubted gentlemen address known ladies in the same manner.While conceding, therefore, that the evidence of salutation may lend itself to a variety of interpretation, I remain of the view that the evidence of manner and character, to say nothing of the gender distribution of senior Oxford Professors of Law in the 1980s, still point toward Hilary being male.
I trust that this clarifies the matter to my learned friends’ satisfaction.
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Hahaha :))In my view, Caudwell quite deliberately sets out to bamboozle the reader about Hilary with sneaky clues that point in both directions and which never close the question down. I guess that playful approach to how we recognise gender was more provocative and innovative in the 1980s than it is now.
Susan wrote: "I do agree that Hilary is quite lazy. I loved the way he/she got out of marking papers and makes spurious trips to London, basically to avoid working."Definitely male, then ;)
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Roman Clodia wrote: "Hahaha :))In my view, Caudwell quite deliberately sets out to bamboozle the reader about Hilary with sneaky clues that point in both directions and which never close the question down. I guess th..."
Gender and sexuality - although we weren't Puritans in the 1980s - or in the 1960s if it comes to that! But some of the nudges about Hilary's gender come from suggestions of sexual attraction (albeit unacted upon).
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Susan wrote: "Hmmm, not sure about that, RC. I've worked (work) with some pretty lazy females...."It's not the laziness in itself, I meant, but the way Hilary uses that distinctive form of double-think that allows them to avoid work and do exactly what they want while maintaining the fiction that they're at the top of their game.
I put the 4th one aside but I think I might have read the books too close together so would love to try it again with the group when it comes around.
i own them all, so I'm happy to read them again. My copy of Thus was Adonis Murdered is an ex-Westminster Library copy, bought in 1994.
Oops, sorry, I got that wrong - it's the 3rd one I put aside (The Sirens Sang of Murder) which I'd like to try again, I liked the 4th one.
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Susan wrote: "In terms of the evidence, on a balance of probabilities, I do not believe that your assertions are sufficient to make a legal finding. Furthermore, if this was a criminal issue, you would need to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt and based on the claim made, it is lamentably lacking firm evidence and no jury would, I believe, find in your favour ;)"Were this matter to be put before a jury, it would not, of course, be a matter for a Criminal Court, but rather for a Criminal Court. In such courts the threshold to be met is that of Balance Of Probabilities rather than the matter being proven Beyond Reasonable Doubt. I believe that the case of Hilary's maleness to have been made to the satisfaction of any reasonable Civil jury.
No doubt others will persist in wilful and capricious insistence upon the reverse view, but as the point is moot I shall forthwith cease and desist from pressing said case in this arena of debate.
😉
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Susan wrote: "A settlement out of Court? Very popular these days I feel, Sid :)"Hahahaha!
The terms of said settlement shall, of course, remain confidential.
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But it should be no.ted that there is no admission of liability on my part. I am therefore to be regarded as completely innocent and without a stain upon my character - or, perhaps more accurately, without yet another stain upon my character.
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Everyone have a good day and hope the storm leads you untouched. About to venture out shortly, so stay dry, and safe, everyone.
Haha! We're doing a chocolate tasting at work this afternoon (like a wine tasting but with choc) so no storm is keeping me at home!
So it's a Work Event and absolutely, definitely not a party, then?
I sincerely believe it's a work event because those always involve wine and chocolate, but anyway I only intend to stay five minutes, m'lud, and you know you can always trust every word I say...
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It wasn't bad driving in, but might leave early if it's too bad.
Reading the Detectives
Books mentioned in this topic
The Sirens Sang of Murder (other topics)The Shortest Way to Hades (other topics)
The Shortest Way to Hades (other topics)
It seemed the perfect way to avoid three million in taxes on a five-million-pound estate: change the trust arrangement. Everyone in the family agreed to support the heiress, ravishing raven-haired Camilla Galloway, in her court petition - except dreary Cousin Deirdre, who suddenly demanded a small fortune for her signature. Then Deirdre had a terrible accident. That was when the young London barristers handling the trust - Cantrip, Selena, Timothy, Ragwort, and Julia - summoned their Oxford friend Professor Hilary Tamar to Lincoln's Inn. Julia thinks it's murder. Hilary demurs. Why didn't the heiress die? But when the accidents escalate and they learn of the naked lunch at Uncle Rupert's, Hilary the Scholar embarks on the most perilous quest of all: the truth....
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